Routeing Questions

[222007]

Hi guys i have a couple of questions regarding routing of tickets i see often and infrequently.

1) Birmingham to water orton via coleshill parkway. Is this aloud? We often see people doing a runner from the train at Coleshill and seems to be some confusion,

2) Bedford Bus Mk to Birmingham. Am i right in thinking it is not aloud via Leicester? I was under the impression the passenger had to get a bud from Bedford to Milton Keynes and then train north?

Thanks in advance

 

[SS4]

Hi guys i have a couple of questions regarding routing of tickets i see often and infrequently.

1) Birmingham to water orton via coleshill parkway. Is this aloud? We often see people doing a runner from the train at Coleshill and seems to be some confusion,

2) Bedford Bus Mk to Birmingham. Am i right in thinking it is not aloud via Leicester? I was under the impression the passenger had to get a bud from Bedford to Milton Keynes and then train north?

Thanks in advance

1) Definitely not. There is no easement permitting (especially since 27 was pulled in July) it and since Water Orton is part of Birmingham Group (as is Birmingham Stns you won't be shocked to know) so only direct trains and the shortest route is valid.

2) No idea I'm afraid

 

[dave87016]

East Coast website shows tickets available for Birmingham - Water Orton changing at Coleshill Parkway

 

[222007]

Avantix shows it to but i was told it will show the quickest route but not always the valid route

 

[SS4]

It's perfectly possible that I could be wrong of course, it has been known

If it is then it'll be an easement permitting it.

 

[dave87016]

IF I purchased a ticket that shows I am able to purchase ( Birmingham - Water Orton ) changing at Coleshill Parkway then I would travel that way bear in mind that the direct trains from New St - Water Orton are every 2 hours I think passengers should have some leeway if websites are offering tickets with a change at Coleshill Parkway.

 

[ainsworth74]

Interestingly journey planners are quite happy to give itinerary's for Birmingham New Street to Coleshill Parkway and then back to Water Orton.

 

[dvboy]

NRE shows Birmingham - Water Orton via Coleshill Parkway as valid leaving New Street at 0652 or 0722 or 0922 tomorrow.

Incidentally a colleague of mine has a season ticket to Water Orton and her last trains are 1752 and 1952. In the past when the 1752 has been cancelled she has been permitted by XC to get the 1822 to Coleshill Parkway where she can get picked up.

 

[222007]

Guys i know what it shows i work this route which is why im asking i get one thing from my boss and another from the guys i work with

 

[clagmonster]

1) Definitely not. There is no easement permitting (especially since 27 was pulled in July) it and since Water Orton is part of Birmingham Group (as is Birmingham Stns you won't be shocked to know) so only direct trains and the shortest route is valid.

And routes within 3 miles of the shortest route. As Water Orton to Coleshill is 1.75 miles though, it still does not make any difference. I agree that there is no appropriate easement, threfore I would say not valid, unless there is disruption then overdistance excess or report for prosecution as appropriate (I would hope the latter in the case of people 'doing a runner'). In the case of booking engines incorrectly selling tickets, TIR for issuing error.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2) Bedford Bus Mk to Birmingham. Am i right in thinking it is not aloud via Leicester? I was under the impression the passenger had to get a bud from Bedford to Milton Keynes and then train north?

This is intended for use via the Bedford-Milton Keynes bus link I presume. In which case, although it is not defined anywhere, for a bus link common convention is to use the permitted routes from the railhead, in this case Milton Keynes Central.

Milton Keynes Central is a member of the Bletchley Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 41

All three Birmingham Stations are members of the Birmingham Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 7

Routeing permissions for Bletchley Group to Birmingham Group are: TV and TV+BP.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 85

TV gives:
Bletchley Group-(Northampton if desired)-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham Group
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf page 109

TV+BP gives:
TV: Bletchley Group-(Northampton if desired)-Rugby-Nuneaton
BP: Nuneaton-Birmingham

TV: Bletchley Group-(Northampton if desired)-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Rugeley
BP: Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham Group
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf pages 109 and 9

Thus, I see no way that this ticket is valid via Leicester. The nearest point at which it is valid is Nuneaton.

 

[soil]

It's 7.75 miles from Birmingham New Street to Water Orton

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 057.pdf

And 1.75 miles from Water Orton to Coleshill Parkway

It's also 9.5 miles from B N Street to Coleshill Parkway

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May12/timetables/Table 049.pdf

Doubling back would give a distance of 11.25 miles, which is half-a-mile too long, so not permitted.

You've asked previously about Bedford Bus MK:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=566187

And it seems it's valid on permitted routes between MK and Birmingham, which definitely do not permit going via Leicester, which would involve doubling back Nuneaton to Leicester.

It's the same as MK - Birmingham but also valid on the bus Bedford-MK.

So neither is valid

 

[222007]

You've asked previously about Bedford Bus MK:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=566187

And it seems it's valid on permitted routes between MK and Birmingham, which definitely do not permit going via Leicester, which would involve doubling back Nuneaton to Leicester.

It's the same as MK - Birmingham but also valid on the bus Bedford-MK.

So neither is valid

Opps so i had apologies for that

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Avantix shows it to but i was told it will show the quickest route but not always the valid route

That is correct. Avantix Mobile machines always show the quickest route, not necessarily a valid route. It has no routeing information in it, which is a pain at times.

 

[222007]

Completely agree we could unintentionally give people inaccurate information.

 

[yorkie]

.... unless there is disruption then overdistance excess or report for prosecution as appropriate (I would hope the latter in the case of people 'doing a runner').....

If any TOC prosecuted someone for following the recommended route shown in a booking engine, I firmly believe the TOC would not be likely to win the case and the media would be interested.

FCC tried it recently on the daughter of a forum member, and have a 4-figure legal bill to pay as a result.

 

[34D]

Except that 9.5 miles is within 3 miles of 7.75 miles (the double-back isn't counted, so I understand from previous discussion on here).

Regarding the other example, bus MK seems to suggest they take the bus (table whichever it is, bus X5). However if a bus didn't turn up, it seems reasonable that they be allowed to travel north from Bedford to Leicester and across.

Also, if travelling at super-off peak times, the Bedford bus MK-birmingham (SVR, LM only) is £26.00 whereas Bedford Midland-Birmingham (OPR, LM only) is £16.50. So does the more expensive ticket become valid via the routes of the cheaper ticket?

Finally, a personal opinion. We on this forum ought to be humbled that a member of industry staff is asking our counsel on issues.

People are (correctly) stating that certain things are not valid. However, I wouldn't want to see a member of industry staff act on something from here that conflicts with instruction from their management. For example, if a Cross Country manager has stated to conductors that Bedford bus-Brum is acceptable via Leicester, or stated that xyz applies in times of disruption, or that ABC applies at all times in the interests of good customer service, then such instruction must take precedence from our strict (correct) interpretation of the routeing guide/restrictions/etc.

 

[yorkie]

Except that 9.5 miles is within 3 miles of 7.75 miles (the double-back isn't counted, so I understand from previous discussion on here).

I don't recall anyone saying that?

If you double-back then the mileage that is covered twice, is counted twice, because that is the distance you travel.

The booking engines know this (e.g. WebTIS sites have a 'carbon emissions' option - which is a nonsense - but look at the web address (URL) and the figure you see is the mileage).

Also bear in mind that booking engines calculate distances in a different way to the 'official' method of using the National Rail Timetable (NRT), so their figures will differ, and also ATOC specified that they should use a margin bigger than 3 miles extra (otherwise you'd end up with some valid routes not being allowed, due to rounding issues).

 

[soil]

Finally, a personal opinion. We on this forum ought to be humbled that a member of industry staff is asking our counsel on issues.

People are (correctly) stating that certain things are not valid. However, I wouldn't want to see a member of industry staff act on something from here that conflicts with instruction from their management. For example, if a Cross Country manager has stated to conductors that Bedford bus-Brum is acceptable via Leicester, or stated that xyz applies in times of disruption, or that ABC applies at all times in the interests of good customer service, then such instruction must take precedence from our strict (correct) interpretation of the routeing guide/restrictions/etc.

If staff of a given TOC do not have confidence in their management's knowledge of the technicalities of their business then that is entirely a problem for that TOC, and not a concern of railforums....

 

[34D]

I don't recall anyone saying that?

If you double-back then the mileage that is covered twice, is counted twice, because that is the distance you travel.

I'm happy to be corrected, but I am fairly sure I read it from one of the more sensible posters.

Am I correct that walk/underground/bus link/ferry links count as zero miles?

 

[clagmonster]

If any TOC prosecuted someone for following the recommended route shown in a booking engine, I firmly believe the TOC would not be likely to win the case and the media would be interested.

FCC tried it recently on the daughter of a forum member, and have a 4-figure legal bill to pay as a result.

In that case, I would hope too would hope that a prosecution would not arise. Morally, if anybody is billed, it should be the company who provided the dud information in my opinion.

 

[Eagle]

Am I correct that walk/underground/bus link/ferry links count as zero miles?

That's correct. (After all, how are you even meant to compute the mileage for a walking interchange?)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Except that 9.5 miles is within 3 miles of 7.75 miles (the double-back isn't counted, so I understand from previous discussion on here).

Regarding the other example, bus MK seems to suggest they take the bus (table whichever it is, bus X5). However if a bus didn't turn up, it seems reasonable that they be allowed to travel north from Bedford to Leicester and across.

Also, if travelling at super-off peak times, the Bedford bus MK-birmingham (SVR, LM only) is £26.00 whereas Bedford Midland-Birmingham (OPR, LM only) is £16.50. So does the more expensive ticket become valid via the routes of the cheaper ticket?

Finally, a personal opinion. We on this forum ought to be humbled that a member of industry staff is asking our counsel on issues.

People are (correctly) stating that certain things are not valid. However, I wouldn't want to see a member of industry staff act on something from here that conflicts with instruction from their management. For example, if a Cross Country manager has stated to conductors that Bedford bus-Brum is acceptable via Leicester, or stated that xyz applies in times of disruption, or that ABC applies at all times in the interests of good customer service, then such instruction must take precedence from our strict (correct) interpretation of the routeing guide/restrictions/etc.

I would say that the Bus Link ticket is NOT valid via Bedford on the train. The details in the fares manual clearly state that the interchange station is Milton Keynes - I read this as you must go that way to connect with the train there. It is also headed as "Bedford bus link via Milton Keynes".

 

[222007]

If staff of a given TOC do not have confidence in their management's knowledge of the technicalities of their business then that is entirely a problem for that TOC, and not a concern of railforums....

Its not a case of having no confidence the manager concerned is extremely knowledgeable and proved right many times its just after speaking to some colleagues the seed of doubt was planted

 

[dave87016]

When I have been spotting at Water Orton on a West Mids Day Ranger very few people seem to board or alight trains at Water Orton, therefore I would expect some leeway for the very few that change at Coleshill Parkway off peak at least as the direct Birmingham - Water Orton are every 2 hours having said that I doubt outside of peak hours very few people go through to Coleshill Parkway for a train back to Water Orton