Routeing with Boundary Zone tickets

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maniacmartin

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Hi,

I'm looking to go see if I can see some Olympic cycling on Saturday :D
I hold an Oyster Z1-2 monthly travelcard and a 16-25 Railcard.

I'd like to take a train out from Surrey Quays to West Byfleet in the morning (with a possible BoJ at Surbiton) and return back from Leatherhead to Kings Cross in the evening of the same day. (I'll be making the middle journey in the triangle by car)

Am I right in thinking that I can do both of these journeys with a single Boundary Zone 2 -> Guildford CDR OFF-PEAK DAY R ? I've never travelled on a BZ ticket before so am unsure of how to check their validity w.r.t the routeing guide.

I've checked the routeing maps and both of these stations appear to be on valid routes between Clapham Junction (zone 2) and Guildford, but I just chose Clapham Junction to check as it seemed like the intuitive station to check, rather than following any rule. Is there a rule about what stations I should check between for such a ticket?

Can I start and end in different stations within my Oyster travelcard zones when using a BZ ticket?
 
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maniacmartin

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But the routeing guide has no entries in the pink pages for "boundary of zone 2", hence my confusion
 

yorkie

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The question of routeing has cropped up a few times, the most recent was 2 weeks ago.

As for using a Travelcard and Boundary Zone ticket in combination, that is fine, providing both tickets cover the whole journey. The train does not need to call at the station where you change from one ticket to the next.

There is absolutely no requirement to use the same route for outward & return portions. I not infrequently take a different route on my return than on my outward!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But the routeing guide has no entries in the pink pages for "boundary of zone 2", hence my confusion
Then take the appropriate station. It may be easier to use the National Rail Enquiries site which has a fairly accurate interpretation of the Routeing Guide.
 

maniacmartin

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Thanks yorkie. This quote from the thread you linked to contained this ATOC response

---Quote (Originally by OwlMan)---
---Quote (Originally by ATOC)---
It is only valid if used with a valid Travelcard/Freedom pass that covers zone 6.
It is valid to the first crossing of the outer boundary of Zone 6, using any permitted route (observing any fare related restriction) to any station within zones 1-6 that the associated Travelcard/Freedom pass is valid to.
---End Quote---
---End Quote---

The reason I asked the question, is because if I look up the permitted routes from my starting station in the routeing guide, it only shows National Rail routes, when it is faster to take a tube ride to Waterloo and take the train from there. So looking up my starting station for the whole journey doesn't show all the valid routes for the whole journey.

In this case it doesn't matter that much as I'd have to touch out of the tube and into National Rail, so it could be classed as 2 journeys, but I'm sure it'd be possible to concoct a journey that has a similar but ungated interchange between tube and train, where the end to end journey is not a valid national rail route, but the tube portion was covered wholly by the travelcard.

It's not wholly clear to me what the "appropriate" station would be in this case. Perhaps I should take that as the station where I board the train that goes through the boundary edge.
 

yorkie

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Well, that has me confused! For a journey to Guildford, you are right that Clapham Jn would be perfectly appropriate.

I do not see how there are any tube issues, but it is worth pointing out that taking the tube beyond Zone 2 when on such a ticket would not be valid (unless, of course, it is a route with inter-available ticketing!).

Obviously within Zones 1 & 2 the tube is valid on your Zones 1-2 Travelcard anyway.

So the only issue I can think of would be if you wanted to do something like take the District Line to Wimbledon, I do not believe that would be permitted.
 

maniacmartin

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I've thought a bit more, and I think it could be argued that any station that's en route in the travelcard zones could be an appropriate station, as one could argue that they are making 2 journeys, one purely travelcard and another travelcard+BZ ticket.

Obviously the route after this intermediate station (Clapham Junction in my example) has to be valid as per the routeing guide, but before that can be any old NR/LUL/DLR/etc route within those zones
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Obviously within Zones 1 & 2 the tube is valid on your Zones 1-2 Travelcard anyway.
Yes, but that doesn't help me decide on the appropriate station, nor does it logically follow (in my mind) that a journey from a station in Z1-2 via an end-to-end route not in the routeing guide is automatically valid because a station I arbitrarily chose en route has a valid route to the destination (which is followed from thereon).

Perhaps there is an unspoken rule that the station closest to the boundary on the travelled line is the appropriate one, and I can go wherever I like within the zone boundary as part of a BZ-ticketted journey?
 
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soil

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I think Guildford - Boundary Zone 2 has the same validity, in conjunction with a Zone1-2 travelcard, as Guildford - London Terminals ticket + Zone 1-2 Travelcard.

So I can travel short on my Guildford - London Terminals ticket to Clapham Junction and then use my Travelcard to go anywhere in Zone 1 or 2 by any route I like.

If you stopped short at e.g. Wimbledon for the District Line, then you would need to PAYG for a Zone 3 single. You could of course use your Z1-2 travelcard to continue by bus or tram from any point served by London Buses.
 

maniacmartin

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I think Guildford - Boundary Zone 2 has the same validity, in conjunction with a Zone1-2 travelcard, as Guildford - London Terminals ticket + Zone 1-2 Travelcard.
That sounds plausible, and that's something I understand the rules of :D, so I'll assume this is the case.

The exception (as per yorkie's link to an earlier quote from ATOC), is it may allow more permitted routes than a ticket to London Terminals, if these routes are valid to a station in the zones but not to the terminals.

Perhaps a more technically correct analogy would be
An X - Boundary Zone Y ticket in conjunction with a Zone Z-Y travelcard
has the same validity as
A pile of tickets from X to each station within zones Z-Y in conjunction with a Zone Z-Y travelcard, where you are only allowed to travel on one of the tickets in the pile
 
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yorkie

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I think you are getting closer to understanding the validity, yes :)

You can get to the station in Zone 2 using your Travelcard, and you then take permitted routes from that boundary station to your destination.

The rules in the Routeing Guide apply to individual tickets, not the overall combination of tickets. This can be seen in action by requesting a journey that is not permitted on one ticket on the National Rail Enquiries site; it will suggest two tickets.

You can get to Clapham Jn by whatever route you wish that is covered by your Travelcard. The fact you have a Boundary Zone 2 ticket does not in any way reduce the routes available to you when using your Travelcard.
 

LexyBoy

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Hm.

To me the quote posted by OwlMan seems clear, and is not the same as the interpretation soil has made. The idea of picking an "appropriate" station in Zone 2 seems nonsensical to me - how does one define this station if not by permitted routes from [journey] origin to desination?

manicmartin's last sentence sums it up correctly to me. The passenger may take any permitted route to their destination within the Zones covered; in addition they may make a journey to e.g. London Terminals, and then continue (as a second 'journey') within the validity of the Travelcard. The second option potentially gives routeing additional options on top of those permitted for the through journey.

As an aside, I thought that picking Herne Hill could make a good example - changing at Wimbledon (Z3) for a Thameslink train to Wimbledon, not via London. In fact, it turns out that this is permitted for a Guildford-London ticket too (maps PD+SC), but interestingly these maps also permit Guildford-Clapham Junction-Streatham-Tulse Hill-Herne Hill. In this case one would be travelling into Zone 2 (CJ), then out again (Streatham) and then back into Z2 (Herne Hill). Question then - would this be valid with a BZ/Travelcard combination? My opinion is that yes, it would be.

The rules in the Routeing Guide apply to individual tickets, not the overall combination of tickets. This can be seen in action by requesting a journey that is not permitted on one ticket on the National Rail Enquiries site; it will suggest two tickets.
There is no way of interpreting the Routeing Guide in the context of Boundary Zone tickets though. It has been said by others here that Boundary Zone tickets are considered more as an excess than a standalone ticket (they cannot be purchased alone for starters) - if considered an excess then I believe the Boundary Zone + Travelcard combination is considered as one single ticket.

Although National Rail Enquiries doesn't deal with Boundary Zone tickets, it will show routes for outboundary Travelcards. In this it agrees that permitted routes to the destination may be followed, not to London or the nearest Zone 6 station. (That said, I doubt that there is much more to NRE's calculations than simply offering a Travelcard whenever the destination is within the Zones; it is however the "definitive" source of information).
 

MikeWh

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If you stopped short at e.g. Wimbledon for the District Line, then you would need to PAYG for a Zone 3 single. You could of course use your Z1-2 travelcard to continue by bus or tram from any point served by London Buses.
Got to correct this point - a travelcard is only valid on trams if it contains at least one of zones 3-6.
 

maniacmartin

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You explained it better than I LexyBoy. The Herne Hill example is a good one.

I too have always considered Boundary Zone tickets more like excesses than tickets in their own right, given that one cannot travel the full length of a Boundary Zone ticket without possessing a travel card. As such, the travelcard and Boundary Zone ticket combined could be viewed as a single 'ticket', unless there are rules specifying that this is not the case.

Are Boundary Zone tickets valid for travel between two stations on a permitted route, both outside of the zones, if the the holder has forgotten to take the travelcard? If so, then that would imply that they are somewhat different to excess tickets, and valid as standalone tickets in their own right....
 

John @ home

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Are Boundary Zone tickets valid for travel between two stations on a permitted route, both outside of the zones, if the the holder has forgotten to take the travelcard?
At times I find it helpful to think of both excess fares and Boundary Zone fares as vouchers which change the validity of a ticket, rather than as tickets themselves. But I think you have identified a significant difference.

As it happens, I am using an excess fare today and there is no doubt that my £5.05 "X/S ALT RTE RTN" to convert the return leg of my Cradley Heath - Cheltenham SVR from route Worcester to route Birmingham is "VALID ONLY WITH TICKET 71034".

But a ticket/voucher to or from a Boundary Zone contains no such link to a numbered ticket, so it may well be valid for travel outside the Zones in the absence of a Travelcard.
 

LexyBoy

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According to this post, The Manual says:

Travelcard ticket extension to National Rail stations

Holders of any Day Travelcard or Travelcard Season ticket can purchase single or return extension fare tickets for travel to or from a range of National Rail stations.

Ticket holders may wish to travel to a station outside the London Fare Zones area, or to a station in the area but farther out than the zones in which the ticket is valid. A ticket for the extra fare should be issued from the appropriate Boundary Zone.

Tickets should be issued to/from the outermost Boundary Zone of the Travelcard held and must not be valid for travel after the date of expiry of the Travelcard held. Day Travelcard holders can only purchase a Day Single of Day Return (Peak, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak as appropriate) Excess Fare.

Travelcard extension fares should only be issued in conjunction with a valid Travelcard for journeys to or from stations outside the zones covered by the ticket held. Passengers must keep Travelcards ready to present for inspection together with their Boundary Zone extension fare ticket.
(my highlighting).

I'm not usually a fan of using internal industry documentation to determine the validity of tickets, but as far as I can see there's no documentation about Boundary Zone fares from any "official" source online (which may be partly why so many people don't know about them).
 
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