Routing (Excesses): Norwich to Birmingham

[transportphoto]

Hi All,

Quick query as it's been a while since I last looked into this...

I have an Anytime Return route Not Via London for Norwich to Birmingham. With a Railcard discount, this set the company who purchased it for me back the grand sum of £87.40

I intend to travel on the outward journey in accordance with map AB, via the common sense route changing at Ely/Peterborough for a CrossCountry Turbo via Leicester.

On the way back however, would a Zero fare excess be available for a Route Via London ticket, assuming I travelled in accordance with the restrictions of the £65.80 SVR set by VWC? (Which as it happens only applies as I leave London as trains arriving into MYB / EUS / PAD are not restricted.)

I assume the answer is yes, as long as I can find a clerk willing to do it... as per 13e of NRCoC as quoted in the Fares & Ticketing Guide.

Any clarification appreciated.

TP

 

[bb21]

I think that should be fine. It might be worth making a reservation for the return leg at the same time as the excess to show that your intention is to travel off-peak.

 

[transportphoto]

Thanks bb21.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Whilst the restriction text makes no mention of restrictions applying to the London - Birmingham leg on such a ticket, BRFares shows that similar restrictions to Virgin's London - Birmingham Off-Peak Return are applied in the fares database.

 

[transportphoto]

Whilst the restriction text makes no mention of restrictions applying to the London - Birmingham leg on such a ticket, BRFares shows that similar restrictions to Virgin's London - Birmingham Off-Peak Return are applied in the fares database.

I had only read the restriction code text, 1A:

Restriction Code: 1A

Valid MONDAYS-FRIDAYS
(By any train on other
"Off-Peak" days)

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Not valid on ANY train timed
to arrive at London Fenchurch
Street,London Liverpool Street
or London Kings Cross (from
East Anglia via Cambridge)
from 0430 to 1000 and at
Stratford (London) before 0950
(London) before 0950,
Tottenham Hale or Seven
Sisters before 0940.

RETURN TRAVEL
Not valid on any train
departing London Liverpool
Street or London Kings Cross
(to East Anglia via Cambridge)
_before 09.30, or between
16.29 and 18:34 (inclusive).

Not valid on any train
departing London Fenchurch
Street before 0930.

Not valid on northbound trains
departing Seven Sisters before
0940 nor between 1645 and 1849
inclusive.

Not valid on northbound trains
departing Stratford (London)
before 0938 nor between 1636
and 1841 inclusive.

Not valid on northbound trains
departing Tottenham Hale
before 0940 nor between 1641
and 1840 inclusive.

For journeys to/from East
Anglia via Ely, Restriction
3V applies.

The following easements apply
on National Express East
Anglia services from Monday to
 Friday inclusive:-

08:11 Clacton-on-Sea to London
Liverpool Street service -
from Clacton, Thorpe-le-Soken,
Great Bentley, Alresford and
Wivenhoe to all destinations
beyond Colchester (exclusive).

08:00 Walton-on-the-Naze to
Colchester service - from
Walton, Frinton and Kirby
Cross to all destinations
beyond Colchester (exclusive),

08:28 Harwich Town to
Manningtree service - from all
stations Harwich Town to
Mistley inclusive, to all
destinations beyond Colchester
(inclusive).

09:02 London Liverpool St to
Ipswich service - from
Liverpool St and Stratford
(London) to Chappel & Wakes
Colne, Bures and Sudbury only,
changing at Marks Tey.

09:18 London Liverpool St to
Clacton-on-Sea service - from
Liverpool St and Stratford
(London) to destinations
Wivenhoe, Thorpe-le-Soken,
Clacton, Kirby Cross, Frinton-
on Sea and Walton-on-the-Naze.

16:30 London Liverpool St to
Ipswich service - from
Liverpool St to Derby Road
(Ipswich), Trimley and
Felixstowe only, changing at
Ipswich.

16:32 London Liverpool St to
Ipswich service - from
Liverpool St to Derby Road
(Ipswich), Trimley and
Felixstowe only, changing at
Ipswich.

16:34 London Liverpool St to
Braintree service - from
Liverpool St and Stratford
(London) to destinations
Hatfield Peverel, White
Notley, Cressing, Braintree
Freeport and Braintree only.

18:12 London Liverpool St to
Clacton-on-Sea service - from
Liverpool St and Stratford
(London) to Chappel & Wakes
Colne, Bures and Sudbury only,
changing at Marks Tey.

18:30 London Liverpool St to
Norwich service - from
Liverpool St to Derby Road
(Ipswich), Trimley and
Felixstowe only, changing at
Ipswich.

18:32 London Liverpool St to
Walton-on-the-Naze service -
from Liverpool St and
Stratford (London) to Hatfield
Peveral and Kelveden, also to
stations Alresford to Walton-
on-the-Naze inclusive.

Travel is permitted on
services from Kings Cross to
Ely, Littleport, Downham
Market, Watlington, Kings
Lynn, March, Lakenheath,
Newmarket, Dullingham and
Shippea Hill between 16:29
and 19:00 inclusive.

And indeed, the National Rail website (which the new style of tickets points you to for restriction advice) tells you this... http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64025.aspx

No reference is made anywhere about arriving into London Euston, Marylebone or Paddington... other than in the bits that sort out the booking engines.

On another note, would everyone be in agreement that the excess suggested should be possible?

TP

 

[bb21]

Whilst the restriction text makes no mention of restrictions applying to the London - Birmingham leg on such a ticket, BRFares shows that similar restrictions to Virgin's London - Birmingham Off-Peak Return are applied in the fares database.

That is quite naughty as my understanding is that a ticket from a station outside the Network area to another station outside the Network area, travelling via London, is only restricted on one of the legs to/from London. In the case of the Norwich - Birmingham fare, this is the leg between Norwich and London, as specified by Restriction 1A, while for a Birmingham - Norwich ticket, between Birmingham and London, as specified by Restriction 2C.

It seems to me that the hidden restriction into/out of Euston on the 1A ticket is a very naughty attempt by Virgin to try and sneakily overcharge unsuspecting passengers.

 

[yorkie]

Whoever does pricing for Virgin Trains has a habit of being naughty, for example the case where they applied illegal peak restrictions from MKC until members of this forum caught them red-handed.

Maybe Virgin Trains can sort out their incompetency by taking advice from the Virgin Trains East Coast pricing team, now they're all part of the same 'family'...

Off-Peak Restrictions from beyond London
• This is one of the longest running agreements
on the railway but there are still some staff who
do not seem to be familiar with it. It has been
around for at least 25 years!!
• This is another reminder that Off-Peak and
Super Off-Peak fares (SVR & SSR)
commencing from outside the “Network area”
(e.g. Swindon, Bristol, Ipswich) can use East
Coast trains at any time as the SVR restriction
applies on the FGW/NXEA part of the journey
only, e.g. Swindon-London and return to
Swindon. (These are restriction codes 1A, 1Y,
5A and 5X).
• Conversely, when the outward portion is from the
ECML, the restriction then applies on the ECML
only, not on FGW/NXEA.
• If restrictions applied on both the Great
Western/NXEA part of the journey and the East
Coast Main Line, then many long distance
journeys would be quite impractical in one day.
This agreement exists to make those journeys
possible.
Please ensure all staff know

However, while most TOCs (including Virgin Trains East Coast), ATOC/RSP and the DfT avidly read this forum, I suspect Virgin Trains do not bother to read it, after all they're far too busy to read much of the correspondence that goes their way!

They'll never learn. And who is going to make them behave? There is no proper ombudsman and no effective regulator, and no competent passenger watchdog.

As for the matter of the zero-fare excess, the problem is some Train Companies have a policy of not issuing them. If no-one will issue it, my view is the ticket is valid. But you will have problems crossing London, as a minimum.

 

[transportphoto]

As for the matter of the zero-fare excess, the problem is some Train Companies have a policy of not issuing them. If no-one will issue it, my view is the ticket is valid. But you will have problems crossing London, as a minimum.

Marvellous, there's plenty of ticket offices around Birmingham, and at least three TOCs, so hopefully I should be able to get it done.

TP

 

[TheEdge]

I actually had this issue with a very very similar ticket but heading in the other direction. Slightly different in that they help a Via London and wanted to go Not Via. After some calls it was established a zero fare route excess was fine.

 

[transportphoto]

If the Via London is more expensive than the Not Via London ticket they already held, TheEdge, IIRC, an excess shouldn't be needed to go via the cheaper route.

Out of interest, would you be willing to issue the excess I would be asking for?

TP

 

[bunnahabhain]

I'm not sure its strictly within the rules to excess an SOR to an SVR on the return portion for that journey, an excess should be for a given reason, so a change of route, or a change of ticket type, (plus other reasons not applicable in this case) it shouldn't strictly be issued for both of those reasons.

If I was asked to excess it for a via London journey then I'd issue you the return portion of an SOR routed via London, I wouldn't consider issuing you the SVR.

With regards to going not via London on a via London ticket, you shouldn't get anybody quibbling because you've paid a higher fare for the London route. I've only ever issued one zero fare excess and I have to account for why I've issued them which I don't have to do for normal excesses other than during the issuing process selecting the reason for the excess.

 

[bb21]

I think the potential problems associated with travelling via London on a Not Via London ticket are more likely to come from London Underground staff during the cross-London transfer rather than NR staff.

 

[yorkie]

If the Via London is more expensive than the Not Via London ticket they already held, TheEdge, IIRC, an excess shouldn't be needed to go via the cheaper route.

Out of interest, would you be willing to issue the excess I would be asking for?

TP

I agree it is not necessary, but if not done, the passenger will have great difficulty using London Underground for cross-London transfer, and may have difficulty with the next Guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure its strictly within the rules to excess an SOR to an SVR on the return portion for that journey, an excess should be for a given reason, so a change of route, or a change of ticket type, (plus other reasons not applicable in this case) it shouldn't strictly be issued for both of those reasons.

The reason is changing the route, and this is done to the appropriate fare. If the appropriate fare is an SVR, then that's what the excess is issued to.

If I was asked to excess it for a via London journey then I'd issue you the return portion of an SOR routed via London, I wouldn't consider issuing you the SVR.

That wouldn't be correct (I am not having a go at you; I would say the lack of training given to staff is the fault of managers, not the staff on the ground), see this post: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=699523&postcount=3

With regards to going not via London on a via London ticket, you shouldn't get anybody quibbling because you've paid a higher fare for the London route. I've only ever issued one zero fare excess and I have to account for why I've issued them which I don't have to do for normal excesses other than during the issuing process selecting the reason for the excess.

I agree; a zero fare excess can be a faff and some TOCs make staff fill in a form so staff are reluctant to do them, while some TOCs even have a policy of not allowing them at all (which I do not agree with, for the reasons stated above).

If the passenger will be on the same train throughout, then there isn't really an issue as the Guard can simply say it's fine. But if a passenger is encountering other staff, it's best that a zero fare excess is issued, to avoid any potential problems - especially if the journey involves LU.

 

[MichaelAMW]

The reason is changing the route, and this is done to the appropriate fare. If the appropriate fare is an SVR, then that's what the excess is issued to.

But is it clear what "appropriate" actually means? It strikes me that you could use this idea of excessing to another fare type to get round peak restrictions by mixing and matching for outward and return legs. You only get the benefit of an off-peak ticket by being off-peak on both legs, I would have assumed.

 

[yorkie]

But is it clear what "appropriate" actually means?

It should be. For example, East Coast's Revenue Manual states "Appropriate fare” means the cheapest Single or Return fare available..."

Appropriate fare means exactly that; whatever fare would be appropriate, with any applicable discounts. This is in contrast to the "Full fare".

It strikes me that you could use this idea of excessing to another fare type to get round peak restrictions by mixing and matching for outward and return legs. You only get the benefit of an off-peak ticket by being off-peak on both legs, I would have assumed.

If the Train Companies wish to control exactly what price people pay for single legs, then they need to implement single leg pricing. There are already moves towards this by many TOCs (FGW, VTEC, VT and the open access TOCs) but some are reluctant. Nevertheless, I do not believe there is much scope for this, especially on many flows from London where the cost of an Anytime Single is half that of an Anytime Return, and the Off Peak fares are much cheaper. In some cases an excess is so costly, a new ticket is cheaper!

However I am sure some people in RSP (who are avid readers of this forum) would love it if someone posted a good example, as they do enjoy quoting members of this forum when they lobby the DfT in their relentless attempts to further reduce our rights.

 

[Hadders]

A couple of years ago I needed to travel from Stevenage to Manchester and back for a meeting. My then employer purchased an off-peak return route: not via London costing £145.

On the return I wished to travel via London, the off-peak return route: Any Permitted being £89.70 meant a zero excess fare. I had some difficulty in obtaining the excess but eventually succeeded thanks to a very knowledgeable and efficient clerk.

Now, strictly speaking I could have made the journey via London with my 'not via London' ticket. I'm sure the guard on Virgin from Manchester to Euston would have been fine with it.

But how would I have got on making an Underground journey between Euston and Kings Cross? (ok, I know it's quicker to walk but that's not the point).

Then, imagine travelling from Kings Cross to Stevenage in the evening peak using an off-peak ticket, routed 'not via London'. Technically valid - yes, but what would a First Capital Connect RPI's view have been?

This is an example of why zero fare excesses are sometimes required.

 

[yorkie]

...Technically valid - yes, but what would a First Capital Connect RPI's view have been?...

Good example.

Given the poor training given to FCC's RPIs, a Penalty Fare* wouldn't have been out of the question.:roll:

*And before anyone says "but an RPI can't legitimately issue a Penalty Fare when travelling on a valid ticket, nor when travelling on a route restricted ticket on the wrong route", yes I know that, but there are no safeguards in place to ensure that PFs are not incorrectly issued, and there were many of those on FCC!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just to clear up a little, 'The Manual' (and I believe iKB currently says the same) said the excess is to "the cheapest return ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the passenger to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice". Obviously for the single it said "the cheapest single ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the passenger to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice".

Care should be taken not to confuse geographic route restrictions and Train Company restrictions.

 

[amateur]

Ever thought of using the megabus service. Goes via cambridge (!) and takes 4 hours. 3 services a day I think!

 

[extendedpaul]

Ever thought of using the megabus service. Goes via cambridge (!) and takes 4 hours. 3 services a day I think!

Easy to get a return for around £10 on that route and not too hard to get it for £2 plus the 50p booking fee. Even the day before travel it's usually £7 each way and doesn't take any longer than the train plus no changes.

 

[transportphoto]

Ever thought of using the megabus service. Goes via cambridge (!) and takes 4 hours. 3 services a day I think!

The thought had occurred to me, but it's not me paying, I didn't have a say in the transport booked for me! As it happens, the meeting I am attending is at National Express House, above Digbeth Coach station… arriving by Stagecoach may be a little controversial

TP

 

[amateur]

The thought had occurred to me, but it's not me paying, I didn't have a say in the transport booked for me! As it happens, the meeting I am attending is at National Express House, above Digbeth Coach station… arriving by Stagecoach may be a little controversial

TP

Conflict of interest? VWC are 49% stagecoach anyway.

 

[transportphoto]

Conflict of interest? VWC are 49% stagecoach anyway.

No CoI, just I couldn't see them booking me onto such a service!

TP