Row over female-only compartments being used by transgender people on Caledonian sleeper service

[thenorthern]

Just seen this in the Daily Mail,

Row over female-only compartments being used by transgender people on Caledonian sleeper service pits Churchill's grandson against Mumsn

• The dispute centres on women-only carriages on the Caledonian Sleep

• The dispute centres on women-only carriages on the Caledonian Sleeper

• Mumsnet is unhappy that males who 'self-identify' as women can use them

• Rupert Soames, Churchill's grandson is the chief executive of Serco

• He has been accused of a patronising response to the Mumsnet grievances

A furious row over the right of men who identify as women to use female-only train compartments has pitted Sir Winston Churchill’s grandson against the might of Mumsnet.

The dispute erupted after the operator of the Caledonian Sleeper, which runs overnight between London and Scotland, said that passengers who were born male but ‘self-identify’ as female could sleep in cabins reserved for women.

The move caused uproar on the Mumsnet internet forum, where users complained that their safety could be endangered.

An attempt to defuse the row by Rupert Soames, the chief executive of Serco – which took over the running of the sleeper service three years ago – led to claims that he had been ‘patronising’.

Mr Soames, whose grandfather was the great wartime Prime Minister, was reduced to pleading that the cabins had emergency buttons.

It is the latest controversy over transgender rights and follows the decision by a female-only swimming pond on Hampstead Heath, North London, to welcome men ‘transitioning’ to women.

Proposals to make it easier for people to change gender also prompted two feminists to protest by attending a men-only swimming session at a leisure centre in South London.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html#ixzz5BYjaX0Qg

Its been mentioned in several other newspapers and it started out of the #ManFriday campaign that originated on MumsNet. Its seems to be a very sensitive topic though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its been mentioned in several other newspapers and it started out of the #ManFriday campaign that originated on MumsNet. Its seems to be a very sensitive topic though.

If there is one website that needs to be consigned to Room 101 it's Mumsnet. The home of paranoia and all possible forms of negative parenting.

 

[Clansman]

If there is one website that needs to be consigned to Room 101 it's Mumsnet. The home of paranoia and all possible forms of negative parenting.

Agreed

...Thread Closed.

 

[richw]

So if I wear a dress I can go in the woman’s only carriage? On Better thoughts who in their right mind would want to sit with all women, I like my peace and quiet!

 

[satisnek]

I think the apposite phrase is:

"You couldn't make it up."

 

[Jonny]

That article actually claims that shared berths are being 'phased out' with the introduction of the new rolling stock.

 

[MCSHF007]

In the interests of the equality 'preached' by so many 'right on' activists these days I trust there are also 'men only' carriages on this service.

 

[thenorthern]

What I don't get though is Jeremy Corbyn has raised the possibility of women only coaches but at the same time he wants to make it easier for people to change their gender by simply declaring that they want to be a different gender and people should then respect that.

If there is one website that needs to be consigned to Room 101 it's Mumsnet. The home of paranoia and all possible forms of negative parenting.

Hmmmmmmmn while I agree with a lot of things about you say about Mumsnet I would put change.org into room 101.

 

[bunnahabhain]

In the interests of the equality 'preached' by so many 'right on' activists these days I trust there are also 'men only' carriages on this service.

Yeah, along with Gay Men only, and Lesbian Women only carriages. In the Daily Mail world, only Straight Men rape.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

What I don't get though is Jeremy Corbyn has raised the possibility of women only coaches but at the same time he wants to make it easier for people to change their gender by simply declaring that they want to be a different gender and people should then respect that.

Is that a bit like simply declaring there are no seats (even though there are) and then sitting on the floor in the vestibule?

 

[randyrippley]

Well I quite sympathise with them. If I was a woman sharing a sleeping compartment, the last thing I'd want is for the other occupant to be a bloke, transexual or not. You only have to spend some time around the gay villages in Blackpool or Manchester to realise that some "female-identifying" men are some of the most unlikely people imaginable. Middle aged fat perverts pretending to be women so they can gain access to female toilets, with the hope of sexual interaction.
Mumsnet generally are idiots, but this time they're right.

EDIT

I've been asked to clarify this post.
My comments relate to the surprising number of men who seem to choose to define themselves as women as easily as other people change their shoes. I'm not suggesting that these people are genuine transsexuals, merely that they choose to define themselves as such for their own purposes and ease of gratification.
Yes, I've met a fair number. If you knew my line of work you wouldn't be surprised, but that's a detail I'm not going to reveal.
But the point remains that it doesn't matter what they call themselves: the fact is they are physically men, and it seems quite understandable that women should feel threatened when placed in the situation of having to share a sleeping chamber with a man, transsexual or not. To use a straw man argument, would you want your wife / mother / daughter to be placed in that position?
My comments are not a tirade against homosexuals, or against transsexuals. They are aimed at those who knowingly deceive in order to fulfill their own ends for gratification.
To assuage the sensibilities of some of those who've complained I've made one change to my post: "many" to "some". However the sense of my comments remains.

 

[theironroad]

This thread is going to end in tears

 

[GusB]

Well I quite sympathise with them. If I was a woman sharing a sleeping compartment, the last thing I'd want is for the other occupant to be a bloke, transexual or not. You only have to spend some time around the gay villages in Blackpool or Manchester to realise that many "female-identifying" men are some of the most unlikely people imaginable. Middle aged fat perverts pretending to be women so they can gain access to female toilets, with the hope of sexual interaction.
Mumsnet generally are idiots, but this time they're right.

I'd like to think that these

Middle aged fat perverts pretending to be women so they can gain access to female toilets, with the hope of sexual interaction

would be sniffed out right away, and sent on their way with a major flea in their ear, and perhaps a wee word with the local constabulary.

You may wish to re-word your post. Not only is it offensive to trans people, it's offensive to gay people as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

In the interests of the equality 'preached' by so many 'right on' activists these days I trust there are also 'men only' carriages on this service.

No, this is on about sharing berths, not carriages.

Berths, if shared with a stranger, are either men-only or women-only.

 

[lewisf]

Well I quite sympathise with them. If I was a woman sharing a sleeping compartment, the last thing I'd want is for the other occupant to be a bloke, transexual or not. You only have to spend some time around the gay villages in Blackpool or Manchester to realise that many "female-identifying" men are some of the most unlikely people imaginable. Middle aged fat perverts pretending to be women so they can gain access to female toilets, with the hope of sexual interaction.
Mumsnet generally are idiots, but this time they're right.

Massive jump to conclusion there. More likely is that they’re in the early stage of transitioning. The hormone treatment hasn’t taken much effect yet which is why they still look like blokes in a dress.

Or maybe you’re getting comfused with drag queens. These people generally aren’t transgender. They’re doing it for a comedy act.

Educate yourself because right now you’re coming across as hateful.

 

[Jonfun]

You only have to spend some time around the gay villages in Blackpool or Manchester to realise that many "female-identifying" men are some of the most unlikely people imaginable. Middle aged fat perverts pretending to be women so they can gain access to female toilets, with the hope of sexual interaction.

Is there actually any evidence to say this happens? I've never seen it, though in fairness I only really drink in men-only bars on the gay scene anyway.

 

[Wirewiper]

There is a world of difference between a man putting on a dress and saying "I identify as a woman" (or a woman putting on trousers and saying "I identify as a man"), and someone who is officially transitioning. Someone can only be regarded as transitioning after rigorous psychiatric assessment, and the process involves living as the chosen gender and taking hormones for a two-year period, after which the person can be assessed for surgery. I have a friend who is transitioning. She is a woman.

 

[700007]

Caledonian Sleeper won't be able to settle this and make everyone happy.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the only way to settle this is to not bung in strangers together in the same room. As with all hotel situations, my hope is that the new stock is laid out with compartments designed and sized for single occupants, rather than just expecting single people to cough up more for a double room.

Presumably the YHA must have come across this issue as well ?

 

[randyrippley]

I'd like to think that these

would be sniffed out right away, and sent on their way with a major flea in their ear, and perhaps a wee word with the local constabulary.

You may wish to re-word your post. Not only is it offensive to trans people, it's offensive to gay people as well.

Unfortunately it would appear that this is exactly not what is happening, hence the problem

 

[randyrippley]

Is there actually any evidence to say this happens? I've never seen it, though in fairness I only really drink in men-only bars on the gay scene anyway.

Yes. Thats why I said it.........

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a world of difference between a man putting on a dress and saying "I identify as a woman" (or a woman putting on trousers and saying "I identify as a man"), and someone who is officially transitioning. Someone can only be regarded as transitioning after rigorous psychiatric assessment, and the process involves living as the chosen gender and taking hormones for a two-year period, after which the person can be assessed for surgery. I have a friend who is transitioning. She is a woman.

Do Caledonian Sleeper require proof of that when reserving a berth, or is self-identity enough?

 

[B&I]

What I don't get though is Jeremy Corbyn has raised the possibility of women only coaches but at the same time he wants to make it easier for people to change their gender by simply declaring that they want to be a different gender and people should then respect that.

Of course, it was only for reasons of space that you omitted to mention that the present, Conservative, government proposes to introduce subjective definition of gender in the Gender Recognitiom Bill, and not at all because your partisan approach to the world leads you to identify everything you don't like with Corbyn.

 

[B&I]

There is a world of difference between a man putting on a dress and saying "I identify as a woman" (or a woman putting on trousers and saying "I identify as a man"), and someone who is officially transitioning. Someone can only be regarded as transitioning after rigorous psychiatric assessment, and the process involves living as the chosen gender and taking hormones for a two-year period, after which the person can be assessed for surgery. I have a friend who is transitioning. She is a woman.

No (sensible) person has any problem with people in that situation, who can presumably prove theue transgender status with a medical certificate.

Where the problems begin is with the notion that an individual person should be able to choose their gender at any given moment in the same way they'd change their footwear, and that the whole of the rest of society should re-mould itself around that individual's unchallengeable decision, to the extent of everyone else abandoning any expectation of performing intimate functions in the absence of the opposite sex

 

[Mag_seven]

Sounds to me that someone just wants to pick a fight with anyone and that "anyone" in this case happens to be CS.

 

[infobleep]

That article actually claims that shared berths are being 'phased out' with the introduction of the new rolling stock.

Which means if your single person who doesn't mind sharing to save on costs, your out of luck. I guess we are a rare breed or not worth as much or as kany in number as those who don't want to share.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds to me that someone just wants to pick a fight with anyone and that "anyone" in this case happens to be CS.

Mumsnet is good at that. I really wouldn't want the vast majority of its inhabitants to mother my child...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which means if your single person who doesn't mind sharing to save on costs, your out of luck. I guess we are a rare breed or not worth as much or as kany in number as those who don't want to share.

Still a massive shame the pods didn't come off (or something similar like lengthwise couchettes). I'd far rather be in a plane like open coach with a load of other people than the awkward 1:1 with one person I don't know.

 

[whoosh]

I did once work with a person who decided to live as a woman. I had no problems with this person, but one of the women I worked with highly objected to them using the women's toilet.
I don't think there is an easy answer.

 

[theageofthetra]

If there is one website that needs to be consigned to Room 101 it's Mumsnet. The home of paranoia and all possible forms of negative parenting.

Completely agree. Started off as a well meaning blog and now just a front for the worst kind of virtue signaller.

Is there actually any evidence to say this happens? I've never seen it, though in fairness I only really drink in men-only bars on the gay scene anyway.

Yes. Know a guy who works in venue security and it's increasingly common. They have found hidden cameras installed in venue toilets by these perverts too. By far the biggest issue is them being installed in those 'gender neutral' toilets which many places are putting in. These recordings are then sold onto sites mostly in Asian/Arabic countries which have strict rules on 'normal' pornography