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Rowsley - Buxton?

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CosherB

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Just cycled the Monsal Trail, on the trackbed of the former Midland Main Line through the Peak District. All 6 tunnels between Bakewell and Wyedale are now open, and they and the whole infrastructure (with the possible exception of Millers Dale viaduct which is open but might not be up to supporting a railway these days) seems in excellent condition.

Just needs a bit of track and maybe some attention to that viaduct, and we could have trains running again from Manchester to St Pancras via Buxton and the Peak!
 
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RichmondCommu

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It would certainly be a much more direct link between the East Midlands and Greater Manchester. However the first priority should be to reinstate double track through Dore. As an aside the Peak District is visited by millions of people each year and anything that can be done to lessen the burden on the A6 has to be a good thing. However this would require a great of local authority money and at the moment there isn't too much of that!
 

yorkie

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I cycled it the other week. My timings were:

Buxton [BUX] 1455
Millers Dale Junction 1524
Rusher Cutting Tunnel 1525
Chee Tor Tunnels 1527
Millers Dale 1531 - 1538
Litton Mill tunnel 1545
Cressbrook tunnel 1547
Monsal Dale 1549
Headstone Viaduct 1551
Monsal Head 1552
Little Longstone 1552
Great Longstone 1556
Hassop 1601
Bakewell 1605
Coombs Road viaduct 1609
Rowsley 1644
Rowsley South 1700
Darley Dale 1706
Matlock [MAT] 1724

Took me 2 1/2 hours.

Coombs Road > Rowsley was along tracks over the hills rather than along that busy A road. Raced a steam train that was departing Rowsley as I was passing through.

A lot quicker than last time :lol:
 

PinzaC55

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The major obstacle to reopening this line is the missing A6 bridge at Rowsley. It was renewed about 5 years before the line closed and removed entirely with the road being raised and straightened. In the days when I volunteered on Peak Rail (up to 1991) it was I think reckoned to be in the order of £2 million to rebuild it. That was 20 years ago.
Plus Haddon Tunnel is in very poor condition and the owner of the Hall is dead set against the railway reopening.
 

RichmondCommu

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The major obstacle to reopening this line is the missing A6 bridge at Rowsley. It was renewed about 5 years before the line closed and removed entirely with the road being raised and straightened. In the days when I volunteered on Peak Rail (up to 1991) it was I think reckoned to be in the order of £2 million to rebuild it. That was 20 years ago.
Plus Haddon Tunnel is in very poor condition and the owner of the Hall is dead set against the railway reopening.

Hi Pinza, just out of interest why is the owner so anti rail? Surely repairs could be made to the tunnel and i can't understand how this would affect the Haddon Estate? £2 million is an awful lot of money to a preserved railway but is small change to Network Rail.

By the way thanks for your help regarding Spondon signal box! Very much appreciated. In future years i hope to build a model railway based around Spondon. I've got to build a railway room first though!
 

PinzaC55

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Hi Richard it is totally bizarre when you consider that he runs the Hall as a tourist attraction and could probably have a halt very close by? Of course the only reason for the tunnel being there is that his ancestors didn't want to see the railway - it only has about 1 foot of soil on top of it!
Re the A6 road bridge it might have been £2 million TWENTY years ago - factor in inflation and the current draconian H&SE regulations and it would be at least £5 million now. Certainly there's no possibility of Peak Rail affording it , though as you say to NR/the government it would be pocket money.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW I just found a better photo of the Spondon diagram and here it is. You can click "Original" to view it very large.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/5937502254/sizes/l/in/photostream/
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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It is totally bizarre when you consider that he runs the Hall as a tourist attraction and could probably have a halt very close by? Of course the only reason for the tunnel being there is that his ancestors didn't want to see the railway - it only has about 1 foot of soil on top of it!
Is the tunnel itself the reason why Lord Edward Manning is so implacably set against the return of the railway? Where has he lodged his objections?
 

PinzaC55

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First you need to remember I am talking about 20 years ago - I don't know whether that is still his stance.
Secondly, as I said the A6 road bridge is more or less impossible for Peak Rail to cross unless one of their members happens to win Euromillions - the cost would be extraordinary. Since both the Tunnel and Hall are on the other side of the bridge site he doesn't need to worry for the foreseeable future.
I would imagine his objections would have been based on the fact that trains tend to be noisy and pure NIMBYism - I guess if you don't "like" trains (there are such people) then having them in your back yard might be too much to take.
 

PinzaC55

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Possibly still Network Rail. I've never been down there for many years but certainly in the early 90's the trackbed between the A6 road bridge site and the tunnel was fenced off and heavily overgrown - here's the tunnel
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/3650418515/in/set-72157620778491878
I've a feeling it would need more work than the tunnels on the upper section of the line because it has such a thin covering of soil on top of it - in fact I have been told by those who have been in that you can see daylight through the roof in places!
 

RichmondCommu

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Occasionally on our regular weekend visits up north my family and I will catch the train from Derby to Edale for day on Kinder Scout. The train from Sheffield is always well used and at least goes some way to taking cars out of the Hope Valley. Its just such a pity that there is no similar way of relieving the A6!

I had no idea that the Haddon tunnel was in such a bad state. If the track bed is still owned by Network Rail this does at least give some hope that the line could one day be re-opened. At least perhaps in my life time (I'm 45 in three weeks time!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just thought of something as I look forward to the pub and then home. I'm pretty sure there used to be a halt near Topley Pike which saw occasional use. Does anyone know what it was called and whether it has survived?
 

PinzaC55

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Just thought of something as I look forward to the pub and then home. I'm pretty sure there used to be a halt near Topley Pike which saw occasional use. Does anyone know what it was called and whether it has survived?

You could mean Cheedale Halt which was built on the Peak Forest line near Buxton by Peak Rail to receive occasional special trains? It was entirely built of wood and in about December of 1989 a party of volunteers (myself included) drove up to Buxton - through the tunnels, which we had the keys to - and dismantled it at 01.00, followed by a hearty breakfast in the little shed of Blackwell Mill staff halt.
It was re-erected as Matlock Riverside station and is of course still in use.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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This is a very professionally produced and comprehensive document and a very detailed synopsis of the status quo and of the future possibilities that may be afforded. The list of names of the panel members and of their postitions within the area is more than impressive and their understanding of the matters in hand cannot be faulted.

The matters concerning the current situation at Haddon Hall is fully discussed in Q5 ..Questions and comments from the audience.

The matter of freight is fully discussed at length and one of the panel members has detailed knowledge of this matter.

Section 6 at the end of the publication has an excellant publication of diagrams that were used in the slide presentations. All of these have been professionally produced.
 

stanley T

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This seems like a no-brainer, for a mere £100m or so, just for the freight capacity to relieve the WCML and Hope Valley. Exactly the sort of thing that (limited) money should be spent on rather than grandiose plans for an HS2 which will never get built. Peak Rail could run their puffer trains at weekends, when there is less freight, all the way to Buxton.

Interesting that most of the really bad closure decisions were made after Beeching (Oxford-Cambridge another example)
 

PinzaC55

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Unfortunately I think HS2 WILL get built. Meanwhile lines like this one and York - Market Weighton - Beverley, which would provide huge benefits to their areas at minimal impact to the environment, will continue to rot and be built on.
 

RichmondCommu

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This seems like a no-brainer, for a mere £100m or so, just for the freight capacity to relieve the WCML and Hope Valley. Exactly the sort of thing that (limited) money should be spent on rather than grandiose plans for an HS2 which will never get built. Peak Rail could run their puffer trains at weekends, when there is less freight, all the way to Buxton.

Interesting that most of the really bad closure decisions were made after Beeching (Oxford-Cambridge another example)

There would also be an opportunity to run "Dales Rail" services from Manchester, Sheffield and Derby on a Sunday. Stock would be freed up by the reduced Sunday timetables and there would be less traffic running on the line on a Sunday. Simple stations (funded by DCC) at Millers Dale, Monsal Dale and Bakewell would go a long way to taking pressure off the A6.

Whenever i bring my family back up north from London for the weekend we often have a day in the Peak District. One of my favourite spots is the viaduct at Monsal Dale and i would love to see a train cross it one fine day. Oh well i can dream!
 

Bevan Price

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Hi Richard it is totally bizarre when you consider that he runs the Hall as a tourist attraction and could probably have a halt very close by? Of course the only reason for the tunnel being there is that his ancestors didn't want to see the railway - it only has about 1 foot of soil on top of it!
Re the A6 road bridge it might have been £2 million TWENTY years ago - factor in inflation and the current draconian H&SE regulations and it would be at least £5 million now. Certainly there's no possibility of Peak Rail affording it , though as you say to NR/the government it would be pocket money.


If the line ever reopens as part of the national network, I fear Peak Rail will have little say over what happens. In all probability, it would be part of the trackbed acquired by compulsory purchase, hopefully with enough funding for them to establish an alternative preservation operation .
 

apk55

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The extra cost of rebuilding the line as a two track heavy duty railway as against a single track limited capacity line is probably only about 25% so it would be short sighted to do anything less.
However there are some improvements that should be done as well, to maximize potential

1/ Reinstate Ambergate North Curve so that trains using the line could head north. Freight trains going to Doncaster etc could use the line turning west at Chesterfield. It could also be useful as a diversion for passenger trains from Manchester to Sheffield in event of engineering operations on the Hope valley line.

2/ Reinstate 4 tracks from Chinley to New Mills, which would allow fast trains to overtake slow trains and freight.

3/ Hazel Grove cord improvements.
4/ Capacity improvements on the line from New Mills, Marple to Manchester
 

Scouseinmanc

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If this line were to be reinstated, how would Manchester cope with the additional traffic. Piccadilly is already full to capacity. However, with the Northern Hub proposals including the additional platforms 15 & 16, would this then be sufficient?
 

Nym

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If this line were to be reinstated, how would Manchester cope with the additional traffic. Piccadilly is already full to capacity. However, with the Northern Hub proposals including the additional platforms 15 & 16, would this then be sufficient?

Well, here we go...

Traffic from Chinley (regardless of where it comes from before there) has many choices as to where it can go into Manchester.

Chinley - Hazel Grove - Stockport - Stockport Viaduct Slows - Piccadilly Main Shed
This route is very overcrowded as it is and there is little space for expansion, thanks to the pinch points of the piccadilly approaches for this area and the flat junction at slade lane, and where 6 tracks become 4, at the same junction.

Chinley - New Mills - Guide Bridge - Piccadilly Eastern Platforms
At the moment these lines are also at capacity, but soon, 2tph fast paths are going to be freed up under the Northern Hub plans. When TPE is sent over to Victoria (but 2tph Leeds - Piccadilly semi fast will remain). There is also the scope to 4 track between Guide Bridge and Piccadilly without any hassle at all, the trackbed, bridges, everything, even a lot of the platforms are still there.
4 track can be put in place all the way up to ardwick, there is also space for at least two more platforms in the Long Stay car park. And, the Northern Hub is going to displace services to higher platform numbers, as the plan is to have all slow line services using the through platforms, or as many as possible. So the fasts will then be assigned all the way, potentially, upto platform 12.
There is also scope to run from Ashburys into Victoria, terminating in the Eastward bay platforms, or pushing through to Salford Central or Salford Crescent (both of witch need more platforms, and can be done relativly cheaply, at Salford Central). If this was combined with further electrification then life would be much easyer for trying to find platforms from that kneck of the woods.

And if that wasn't enough routes for you, there is also the possibility of building a coard from the shorter route from Romiley to Ashburys onto the Denton line, not only re-instating services to denton on a more regular basis (this could be combined with a car park for P+R off the M60 and M67) but it does not need to touch Guide Bridge and can run via Ashton Moss Junctions (Another station, P&R and Metrolink Interchange at Ashton Moss perhaps?) straight into Victoria without ever interfering with a Piccadilly route West of the coard. Or, even more, there is space to re-instate a further coard at Guide Bridge it'self so again, another route to Piccadilly and Victoria.

So yes, capacity at Manchester termini is a problem, but not one that can't be overcome.

(PS. I'm also an advocate of Electrification on all routes to Chinley from Manchester and Stockport with some bay platforms re-instated at the station for electrification to end at. Would be handy for turning services around and joining the dots of the network's extremities, namely Hazel Grove. With then 3tph slow from Manchester, and the Hope Valley service then run via Guide Bridge fast, calling only at Guide Bridge and Chinley before the Hope Valley (or if via Stockport, Stockport, Hazel Grove, Chinley, Hope Valley). To speed up the hope valley services, and any services direct to Derby (I can see the Norwich - Liverpool as an ideal candidate) would be sent that way fast, with an hourly slow following the same pattern, limited stop to Chinley from Manchester, then all stations to final destination, possibly limited stop at the other end)
 
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PinzaC55

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If a reopened line approached from the Ardwick direction what about new platforms at the former Mayfield station? It has bags of space and is only used by junkies AFAIK.
 

Lampshade

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If a reopened line approached from the Ardwick direction what about new platforms at the former Mayfield station? It has bags of space and is only used by junkies AFAIK.

Oh come on, that's too obvious. If you put the Chester/Buxton/Crewe/Alderley Edge/Airport services in Mayfield Virgin could have Piccadilly platforms 9-12, leaving 8 platforms for Northern Hope Valley/Glossop services.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Oh come on, that's too obvious. If you put the Chester/Buxton/Crewe/Alderley Edge/Airport services in Mayfield Virgin could have Piccadilly platforms 9-12, leaving 8 platforms for Northern Hope Valley/Glossop services.

Which particular Manchester Airport services are you referring to above? With the exception of the Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly shuttle, the other services to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Southport, Liverpool, Blackpool, Windermere and Barrow all require through running as will the services to Newcastle and to Middlesbrough, once the Ordsall Chord is opened.

Incidentally, who are the present owners of the Mayfield infrastructure and have any recent costings been made into a complete refurbishment to bring this building up to current railway standard.
 

Nym

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If a reopened line approached from the Ardwick direction what about new platforms at the former Mayfield station? It has bags of space and is only used by junkies AFAIK.

Because there's another 5 tracks on the Piccadilly approach in the way....?

And perfectly good trackbed with a bit of tarmac atop of it in the Car Park, and car park access can be retained through that route, even with two or even three additional 240m long platforms.

Seriously, now the Castlefeild Curve is happening there is no need to re-open Mayfeild as a standard heavy rail station, only 4 to 6tph would be able to use it (the terminating services off the slow lines) and it would still mean crossing on the flat to get in and out of Mayfeild from the slows. The capacity between Slade Lane and Ardwick needs sorting before thinking of Mayfeild as an option for more platforms.

Remember aswell that 1tph is going to be dropped from the eastern platforms (Hull - Piccadilly) and another one on the approaches (Scarborough - Liverpool L St) and 2tph will be cut short to become Leeds / York - Manchester semi-fasts. (According to the Northern Hub) saving a further 2tph departures / arrivals.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Because there's another 5 tracks on the Piccadilly approach in the way....? Seriously, now the Castlefield Curve is happening there is no need to re-open Mayfield as a standard heavy rail station, only 4 to 6tph would be able to use it (the terminating services off the slow lines) and it would still mean crossing on the flat to get in and out of Mayfield from the slows. The capacity between Slade Lane and Ardwick needs sorting before thinking of Mayfield as an option for more platforms.

Did you manage to find out who actually are the owners of the Mayfield Station infrastructure and the plans they envisage for the future use of either the land it occupies or the building itself?
 

Lampshade

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Which particular Manchester Airport services are you referring to above? With the exception of the Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly shuttle, the other services to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Southport, Liverpool, Blackpool, Windermere and Barrow all require through running as will the services to Newcastle and to Middlesbrough, once the Ordsall Chord is opened.

Incidentally, who are the present owners of the Mayfield infrastructure and have any recent costings been made into a complete refurbishment to bring this building up to current railway standard.

I was referring to the Northern shuttle services. Also, isn't it BRB (Residual) who own Mayfield? I know it's still government-owned land.
 
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