RPI refused to issue a PF

[tannedfrog]

Which may ultimately harm your defence. As stated by others, it is far better to answer questions honestly at your first opportunity.

I would be humble during a conversation with a guard because I perceive that a guard's job is to do with safety and service, whereas an RPI seeks only to catch people out.

Once there has been an initial discussion with an RPI and that RPI has incorrectly decided that a ticket is not valid, I would see little value in justifying myself further - unfortunately it is in the RPI's interests to find fault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The sad thing for the OP and those in a similar position is that there was no guard to ask whether the shaky handwriting was OK - the passenger was obliged to take the risk and hope for the best, or use/buy a new ticket.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would be humble during a conversation with a guard because I perceive that a guard's job is to do with safety and service, whereas an RPI seeks only to catch people out.

No they don't, they (should) seek to establish whether a passenger is travelling legally or illegally, and if the latter then they should be establishing an appropriate course of action to take.

If you don't mention something under caution which you then rely on in your defence, it will harm your defence massively. Hence the caution!

 

[Fare-Cop]

I really don't agree that trying a different pen on the ticket, at a different time and in different conditions (he may have wiped it first to clear any grease, for example) help proves anything with regards to an accusation of tampering.

I'd be shocked if a magistrate took a test like that as any sort of 'proof' that any and every pen will work fine. I can run a cheap bic biro over a range of tickets and it will write fine on some and not on others, and if I go over and over the same bits - sometimes the ink will flow, sometimes it won't. Same pen!

I bet if the RPI had tried and it hadn't worked straight away, he would have just muttered 'not to worry, that's not a proper test anyway' and carried on.

As it happens, the wife plays tennis with a magistrate so next time I see her I'll ask what she thinks about this, in theory at least.

Let me finish by saying I am sure there are many people who tamper with their tickets and I saw a lady that was held until BTP arrived at Finsbury Park because she'd been observed over a longer period of time (and her ticket didn't operate the gate as it had clearly been used), but they would need to do far more detailed investigating than simply showing they can get a pen to work on the ticket! To have any faith in our legal system, I have to assume no court would side with the train company on such flimsy evidence.

You seem to be missing the point entirely.

It was you who raised the idea of alleging that the RPI testing a pen on the ticket could be said to be 'tampering' with it

My point is that it would be considered no such thing.

ONLY alterations to the material details printed on the ticket will be considered 'tampering with its' validity'.

This means alterations to the day, date, time, place of journey, fare paid, discount indicator, class of accomodation etc.

All of that is irrelevant in a sense, because the rules of issue and use make very clear that if the ticket is not made out clearly, rail staff who genuinely believe that the ticket may have been altered, have the right to retain railway property for enquiry.

The fact that a Penalty Fare notice was not issued raises no real problems either. If a TIR or MG11 is submitted the TOC will send a verification letter to the traveller and that traveller then has every opportunity to appeal, giving their explanation by letter.

 

[jon0844]

It was you who raised the idea of alleging that the RPI testing a pen on the ticket could be said to be 'tampering' with it

No I bloody well didn't. No need to underline such a statement as it doesn't make it any less of a lie. I thanked you for giving such detailed information, but perhaps I was mistaken to do so.

All I've ever said is that someone else trying a different pen which works on the ticket doesn't suddenly prove that the person who claims his or her pen didn't work is a liar.

The RPI drawing on the ticket makes no difference at all, as it proves nothing. The only way to tell is to do a proper examination of the ticket, and at the very least check the magstrip. That could solve the issue immediately, without even needing to do any forensic checks.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

No I bloody well didn't.

Meeuoow!

To be fair to all of us looking to this forum for informed comment, I think some skew of perspective is apparent: In the 60 or so posts in this thread so far, then it seems to me that about 10% of them have been by you, and all or nearly all have referred to your own personal incident of having been challenged on FCC - a year or two ago I think.
Furthermore, this thread is not the first time that you have introduced your own 'incident' into other vaguely or speciously connected threads; its a personal experience which you have introduced and re-introduced to more than a few other people's tales or requests over those years. It has certainly had a profound effect on you and still haunts you.

Whilst my own opinion of you should not be of any concern to you, that personal opinion might just assist you in understanding how others might also percieve your contributions:- I have become so familiar with you referring back to your own incident (however many years ago it was), that I now associate your username with yet another episode of your own historic story, and not as an objective (or relevant?) contribution to the matter being discussed.
I make this post in all openness on the forum in the hope that you take it in the spirit that it is intended. i.e. that regular contributors could add meaningful value to this forum by treating others' reports on their own merit, and not as a surrogate continuation of your own personal incident. If you can reflect on the fact that I can't think of any other forum member who repeatedly introduces their own personal experience of a single incident into so many other people's reports, then you may begin to understand my reason for making this observation in such a public manner.

You might even agree that this thread's OP had some extremely pertinent responses in its first few replies. Yours didn't seem to have the same focus on the OP's circumstances. Did they?

 

[jon0844]

I added that after, but my first post was about my very same comment about how hard it is to write on tickets. It had a photo showing where the orange had come away.

The fact is, it is hard to write on the orange bit of standard ticket stock. Anyone can try this at home with one of their many old tickets to see! I stick to my opinion that no RPI is going to prove intent to defraud simply because they pulled out their own pen and successfully drew on it!

Or I certainly hope not.

Finally, I should add that when I add my own experience as a reference to how other people may or may not have been treated by FCC staff, I don't go into the entire story and try and keep it as short as possible and keep it relevant. I do not go into every single thread and suddenly go 'hey and guess what, one day I got grief from FCC'.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . I do not go into every single thread and suddenly go 'hey and guess what, one day I got grief from FCC'.

I'm sure you do not, and I thank you for this confirmation.
However, I hoped it might be helpful to you to understand a little of how 'your readers' may read into your posts. I thought that my own response might have been helpful:

. . . might just assist you in understanding how others might also percieve your contributions:- I have become so familiar with you referring back to your own incident (however many years ago it was), that I now associate your username with yet another episode of your own historic story, and not as an objective (or relevant?) contribution to the matter being discussed.

I'll not repeat myself on here, but hope that my view of your reports on here might be helpful to you and to others posting on here for assistance, and are not as a criticism to which you must defend yourself. (I doubt that anyone on here wants you to do any more of that!)
Any more of this should surely be off-forum.

 

[tony_mac]

It was you who raised the idea of alleging that the RPI testing a pen on the ticket could be said to be 'tampering' with it

I think you mis-remembered? (If that is a real word )

It is an interesting and valid point that if the Revenue Protection Inspector has written on the ticket using his own pen then his is actually tampering wih the evidence.

'You'll rarely hear a complaint about an RPI from a traveller who held a valid ticket'

Funnily enough, we hear quite a lot of them.

I guess that you could rewrite it as

'You'll rarely hear a complaint about an RPI from a traveller who the RPI believed held a valid ticket'

Which is so obvious as to be pointless.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure you do not, and I thank you for this confirmation.
However, I hoped it might be helpful to you to understand a little of how 'your readers' may read into your posts. I thought that my own response might have been helpful

Yes, and I am always conscious of when I mention previous experiences (whether this or anything else) as I do fear I am repeating myself a bit too much at times.

I would say that, in my defence, it's often because there are so many extremely similar threads on here that require repeating the same things, whether my own experiences or the solid advice from the likes of Yorkie etc.

These threads are often from people who have;

a) Genuinely been hard done by on the railway for whatever reason.
b) Been done for doing something that was clearly wrong and getting upset merely for being caught, and looking for any sort of loophole or trick to get off.

I fully appreciate how tough it is for rail staff, and have also said many times that I accept that many will initially assume guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I think you mis-remembered? (If that is a real word )

Yes, you're quite right Tony, my apology.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Funnily enough, we hear quite a lot of them.

I guess that you could rewrite it as

Which is so obvious as to be pointless.

Yes, the forum does see a great many it appears. My comment was the one we hear most internally.

 

[radamfi]

I wonder why FCC issue carnets when most TOCs don't? I suspect they know it is a way of catching people out for prosecution. I would never buy a carnet as saving a few quid is not worth the risk of a getting a life ending criminal record.

 

[nedchester]

I wonder why FCC issue carnets when most TOCs don't? I suspect they know it is a way of catching people out for prosecution. I would never buy a carnet as saving a few quid is not worth the risk of a getting a life ending criminal record.

Presume you wouldn't buy a flexible rover either.........

 

[radamfi]

Presume you wouldn't buy a flexible rover either.........

I haven't bought one of those for about 20 years, but I do remember them being easy to write on in those days.

 

[jon0844]

Until FCC (or the DfT) extends Oyster or introduces a new ITSO card, having a wallet full of carnet tickets means I can still turn up at the station and go straight away - no queuing. When I get to London, I switch to my Oyster PAYG.

It's the closest I can get to having the convenience I had for many years with an annual season ticket. To queue or wonder if the TVMs are working would mean an inconvenience to me, as the bus I take to the station leaves little time for problems - and I don't really want to leave 30 minutes earlier.

I am sure they could do something better, like selling them as scratch cards (as they do with the complimentary ones given to annual Gold Card holders and as gestures of goodwill etc). They're (near) impossible to tamper with. However, I'd probably need to order them online as they'd need to be printed with the correct origin/destination. I'd gladly do that if they lasted for a whole year (or two) instead of three months, which means money paid up front for the railway.

Of course, that would also mean I'd benefit from any price rise - so they'd probably not want to do that!

 

[RJ]

I wonder why FCC issue carnets when most TOCs don't? I suspect they know it is a way of catching people out for prosecution. I would never buy a carnet as saving a few quid is not worth the risk of a getting a life ending criminal record.

There must be something seriously wrong if you think it's that difficult to a.) find an appropriate pen and b.) remember to write the date, carefully and neatly.

It's not the TOC's fault that people have a lax attitude towards paying their fare or holding a valid ticket. Some people only buy a ticket if they think they might be caught without one, instead of to pay for their travel. All FCC are doing is correcting the attitude of the former and I say good on them for protecting their business.

Obviously this is bad news for fare evaders and "pro passenger" people who think people should have a choice as to whether they should pay the fare or not, but as a passenger who pays their fare upfront where possible, I think it's good when perinnial p*ss takers are picked up on.

People know precisely when they're not doing the right thing with regards to making an appropriate amount of effort to holding a perceived valid ticket. They just don't know how severe the consequences can be, thinking it's limited to a £20 PF, which many a cocky person take exception to paying anyway!

 

[radamfi]

lax attitude

The reason why I don't like these tickets is precisely because I am VERY cautious, so the opposite of 'lax'. With normal single and return tickets and with season tickets you can be reasonably sure that a FCC RPI won't try and stitch you up. I have got into the routine of religiously looking at my ticket and today's date on my watch every time I enter a station to ensure it isn't out of date. During the journey I also make additional checks to be extra sure that I haven't lost my ticket, especially just before getting off the train and encountering barriers.

With a carnet, I know that I would probably make a slip of the pen 1 in 100 times making the ticket look like it has been altered in the opinion of an aggressive, rogue FCC RPI. So I would have to throw the ticket away and buy a new ticket. So safer to avoid these tickets altogether.

They just don't know how severe the consequences can be, thinking it's limited to a £20 PF

I full well know what the consequence is, as I pointed out earlier. A life ending criminal record. That is why I am extremely cautious. That is why I am interested in learning about ticketing - to avoid getting caught out by scary RPIs. Arguably it is much safer to drive as the worst that can happen is that you get a few penalty points and a modest fine. Even if you kill someone you will probably get away with a driving ban with no criminal record as it gets brushed under the carpet under the banner of 'accident'.

 

[RJ]

The reason why I don't like these tickets is precisely because I am VERY cautious, so the opposite of 'lax'. With normal single and return tickets and with season tickets you can be reasonably sure that a FCC RPI won't try and stitch you up. I have got into the routine of religiously looking at my ticket and today's date on my watch every time I enter a station to ensure it isn't out of date. During the journey I also make additional checks to be extra sure that I haven't lost my ticket, especially just before getting off the train and encountering barriers.

With a carnet, I know that I would probably make a slip of the pen 1 in 100 times making the ticket look like it has been altered in the opinion of an aggressive, rogue FCC RPI. So I would have to throw the ticket away and buy a new ticket. So safer to avoid these tickets altogether.



I full well know what the consequence is, as I pointed out earlier. A life ending criminal record. That is why I am extremely cautious. That is why I am interested in learning about ticketing - to avoid getting caught out by scary RPIs. Arguably it is much safer to drive as the worst that can happen is that you get a few penalty points and a modest fine. Even if you kill someone you will probably get away with a driving ban with no criminal record as it gets brushed under the carpet under the banner of 'accident'.

I'm not accusing you personally - but I feel that the responsibility the railways places upon the customer in general is not in the slightest bit unreasonable and should not be equated to entrapment or underhanded extortion to make extra money.

I say in general, I feel that the only exception to this is when passengers are expected to go above and beyond to prove that their ticket is valid or otherwise fulfilled their obligations, having been issued with notices or reported.

Some passengers take the mick. At unbarriered stations, people will just walk past the ticket office and board their train if they feel that they're above joining the queue to pay for a ticket. Some buy discounted boxed tickets, then use tactics in order to illegitimately extend what they're entitled to. Others sit in fully classified First Class on DOO trains without a valid ticket, knowing full well they're not supposed to, but feel it's worth taking the chance.

The list goes on, but these are things that can easily be overcome by passengers stepping up to their responsibilities. Some people think nothing about chancing it if they think they won't be penalised for it!

 

[Ferret]

RJ - I agree. Of course, in sweeping up the chancers, alas some people who have made genuine mistakes end up being caught in the same net as the serial evaders. Alas when this happens, I see the blame laid at the door of the TOC rather than those who are really responsible....

 

[Wolfie]

I added that after, but my first post was about my very same comment about how hard it is to write on tickets. It had a photo showing where the orange had come away.

The fact is, it is hard to write on the orange bit of standard ticket stock. Anyone can try this at home with one of their many old tickets to see! I stick to my opinion that no RPI is going to prove intent to defraud simply because they pulled out their own pen and successfully drew on it!

Or I certainly hope not.

my bold and italics

Indeed! It is not coincidence that when FGW and Virgin have endorsed advance tickets for me to use on a later service due to problems which arose that on every occassion they have done so on the back of the ticket!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There must be something seriously wrong if you think it's that difficult to a.) find an appropriate pen and b.) remember to write the date, carefully and neatly.

Really! Do FCC advise people about what a "suitable pen" is or should people experiment (and obviously throw away the failures!) - there's a nice little earner for FCC! How about they sort out their ticketing issues or they supply a suitable pen!! Once again the archaic legislation the railways operate under file to protect consumers.

Oh, and who defines "carefully and neatly" - are we going to have to have writin tests to buy a bloody train ticket!!!

This is a disgraceful company with disgusting attitudes and too many sychophantic defenders on here - the sooner there is legislative change the better.

 

[GadgetMan]

on every occassion they have done so on the back of the ticket!

Yes but then to be fair there isn't much room left on the front of the ticket to write a couple of sentences. On some stock there's no room on the back either if it is covered in an advert and a separate note is then required.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes but then to be fair there isn't much room left on the front of the ticket to write a couple of sentences. On some stock there's no room on the back either if it is covered in an advert and a separate note is then required.

A very fair comment which I hadn't considered.