rule book question

[387star]

In my rule book on the dispatch section it states if there is no RA indicator and no buzzer/bell the conductor has to wave a green flag/flash a green light to the driver... stupid question but they would somehow do this before then getting in the train themselves?

Under the dispatch section this comes under guards (green writing alongside suggesting only applicable to guards) with station staff merely told never to use a dispatch bat to give the right away signal to a train.. does this mean a white light as opposed to a green light is allowed for station staff?!

Also I keep seeing these signs lit up with two half semi circles.. are these banner repeaters? Presume they alternate depending if the associated signal is off (green) or not?

 

[Anvil1984]

The "half lit semi circles" think of the black bar in the middle as a semaphore signal if its at 45 degrees its OFF / PROCEED. If its horizantal its ON / STOP

First things on the bell / buzzer failure and come to a clear understanding with the driver, but yep shut all doors except local, display flag / light then close local and then the train will go and hopefully nothing will go pairshaped. Reason you give it before you close your local door is that most units dont have windows to display the signal through.

A white light will probably be taken by the driver but as its the guards signal being relayed it should be a green light

 

[387star]

thanks for explaining that

what about the green light to start a train from a stop position. It is clear what handsignal the guard should do (green light/green flag) but less clear about platform staff.. I always thought the same but it dosen't have platform staff written alongside only guard and merely makes clear you should never use the dispatch bat

 

[Anvil1984]

Theres different methods that can be used. Say if I was at Leeds (the driver cant look back as his cab in this case is off-side) and my buzzer wasnt working, I would inform the despatch staff and driver and what could happen is we could use the RA board (its not a despatch baton) as there is that facility or I could on second tip (where i close my local door) display a green handsignal and the despatcher would usethe same signal for the driver. The driver could accept a white light and according to the rulebook its not barred but neither is a red one according to that paragraph. but I agree it should be clearer
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Actually in the rule book its says if theres an RA indicator and the buzzers knackered you must use the indicator but my point stands I think

 

[387star]

Theres different methods that can be used. Say if I was at Leeds (the driver cant look back as his cab in this case is off-side) and my buzzer wasnt working, I would inform the despatch staff and driver and what could happen is we could use the RA board (its not a despatch baton) as there is that facility or I could on second tip (where i close my local door) display a green handsignal and the despatcher would usethe same signal for the driver. The driver could accept a white light and according to the rulebook its not barred but neither is a red one according to that paragraph. but I agree it should be clearer
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually in the rule book its says if theres an RA indicator and the buzzers knackered you must use the indicator but my point stands I think

True but what about dispatching an ecs movement driver only... Im platform staff and always use the green light.. Was trying to see where this was in the rule book


I'm going to make this a little clearer. It is module SS1. On section 6.3 it clearly states the STATION WORK COMPLETE (platform staff) signal must be given by one 'of the following HAND SIGNALS'... one arm raised above the head or a dispatch bat or at night a white light. Then you give a repeat of this signal to the guard to indicate the train safety check has been carried out.

6.5 then goes into greater detail on the RIGHT TO START SIGNAL which is given to the driver by a HAND SIGNAL or a right away indicator or bell.buzzer. If you are a guard the hand signal in this case is clearly shown as green light/flag. Underneath this is and applying this time only to the 'person in charge of the platform' is written 'you must never use a dispatch bat to give the READY TO START signal to a driver'. It then goes into details about using the RA indicator or relaying the guards READY TO START signal if the driver can't see it.

What it does not make clear oddly is giving the RIGHT TO START to a driver if you are platform staff with no conductor and no RA avaliable. An empty stock working for example. In my job I do this all the time so know a green light/flag should be used but where does it state this?

It does say for a DO train you should give 'a handsignal as shown in section 6.5 of this module' which would be the green light/flag. Ideally then the green writing alongside should make clear this is for the 'person in charge of the platform' as well as 'guard'!
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[W230]

It does say for a DO train you should give 'a handsignal as shown in section 6.5 of this module' which would be the green light/flag. Ideally then the green writing alongside should make clear this is for the 'person in charge of the platform' as well as 'guard'!

Not sure if this clears it up at all but when there're no CD/RA indicators on the platform, on DO we get a white bat/hand above head (white light at night) for close doors and a green flag (green light at night) for right away, from the dispatchers.

As for the half lit semi-circle you refer to, they are banner repeaters. This one is OFF, but if the line were horizontal it would be ON. It relates to a main aspect signal that is out of sight/difficult to see round a curve etc. If it's ON then the associated main aspect is at danger, if it's OFF then the associated main aspect is at proceed. If the banner repeater is lit green then the associated main aspect signal is showing a proceed (green) aspect .I understand the green ones are a newer type and are not yet so common.

 

[TDK]

Not sure if this clears it up at all but when there're no CD/RA indicators on the platform, on DO we get a white bat/hand above head (white light at night) for close doors and a green flag (green light at night) for right away, from the dispatchers.

As for the half lit semi-circle you refer to, they are banner repeaters. This one is OFF, but if the line were horizontal it would be ON. It relates to a main aspect signal that is out of sight/difficult to see round a curve etc. If it's ON then the associated main aspect is at danger, if it's OFF then the associated main aspect is at proceed. If the banner repeater is lit green then the associated main aspect signal is showing a proceed (green) aspect .I understand the green ones are a newer type and are not yet so common.

The green banners have been installed when the line speed is as such that the signalling sections ahead are not at enough distance for service braking so therefore give a driver prior warning to a preliminiary caution/caution signal ahead. The standard white/black banner repeaters can show off with any aspect as long as it is proceed.

 

[W230]

The green banners have been installed when the line speed is as such that the signalling sections ahead are not at enough distance for service braking so therefore give a driver prior warning to a preliminiary caution/caution signal ahead.

Ah, ok. Makes sense. We were just told that they'd be appearing more and more as time went by. They obviously help speed up the passage of trains by you knowing you've got a green main aspect but I didn't know the full ins and outs of their intoduction.

 

[Railsigns]

The green banners have been installed when the line speed is as such that the signalling sections ahead are not at enough distance for service braking so therefore give a driver prior warning to a preliminiary caution/caution signal ahead.

That is absolutely not the case at all. The provision of a banner repeater, green or otherwise, isn't a remedy for lack of braking distance.

The green banners were initially introduced to improve performance at places where a driver running on green aspects might be inclined to reduce speed in anticipation of getting a cautionary aspect at the next signal ahead. The green banner aspect gives the driver the confidence to maintain full speed.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

The "half lit semi circles" think of the black bar in the middle as a semaphore signal if its at 45 degrees its OFF / PROCEED. If its horizantal its ON / STOP

First things on the bell / buzzer failure and come to a clear understanding with the driver, but yep shut all doors except local, display flag / light then close local and then the train will go and hopefully nothing will go pairshaped. Reason you give it before you close your local door is that most units dont have windows to display the signal through.

A white light will probably be taken by the driver but as its the guards signal being relayed it should be a green light

I wonder if there is any possibility the guard can get left behind or the driver drive off with the guard's local door open with this method - seems waiting to happen to me...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are several instances of guards being left behind - the most impressive being a Salop guard left behind at Newtown on a class 40 hauled ECS for Aberystwyth (circa 1977) - unauthorised DOO to Machynlleth ........

 

[AlexS]

You have to consider that for the purpose of DOO trains, whether passenger or ECS, if they're being despatched by platform staff only, you are carrying out the duties assigned to the 'guard' in the rulebook (don't take the names in the rulebook too literally, they're roles rather than job titles).

Therefore the correct way to despatch is to give a green light/flag or use an RA indicator if provided. The baton or white light should only be used to indicate that the driver should close doors on DOO passenger/ECS trains, along with a CD indicator, a white light should not be used to indicate 'rightaway' either.

As illustrative examples (I'm a train dispatcher myself):

In my work area, I only despatch passenger trains where there is a guard provided.

Therefore I only undertake the 'person in charge of the platform' role: for power door/CDL fitted stock, 2 white lights/2 white batons, or 1 for non CDL fitted stock, to indicate platform duties are complete. The guard then gives 'ready to start' to the driver using 2 buzzes or a green flag/light, or can give me a green flag/light which I can relay or fire off an RA indicator. I don't issue the authority for the train to move so I only relay a green light/flag, never originate one. Our instructions are the same applied for ECS movements which have a guard provided.

If I despatch a DOO ECS service, I undertake the roles of the guard and person in charge of the platform for train despatch. This means I either close and lock the train doors myself, or ask the outgoing guard if they're not travelling on the empty stock to do it for me, or ask the driver at a push, as part of the process of making the train ready to depart. I am then allowing the train to start on my own authority, rather than advising the guard that it is safe to start, which is where the green light/flag/RA comes in rather than the platform duties (Station work) complete white light/baton etc.

 

[reb0118]

I have a query. At a certain station I'm sure the platform staff dispatch DOO services by using a dispatch bat. They position the black side to a bodyside camera to instruct the driver to close the doors and then the white side for the RA.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure that dispatch bats are not to be used for dispatching DOO trains.

 

[AlexS]

In the strictest sense of the rulebook, a dispatch bat should be used to instruct the driver to close the doors on a DOO train if a CD (Close Doors) indicator is not provided. However it should be used to give the 'rightaway'.