Rules query: yellow handsignal at a crossing

[martin2345uk]

Okay so I’m struggling to get a firm answer on this from anyone I know so throwing it out to the guys and gals on here..!

Under single line working P1, there’s a handy table telling you which handsignal will be shown at which location. Generally it’s yellow at signals, and green at level crossings, all nice and clear.

But there’s one crossing instance where the handsignal is yellow. What I wanna know is - why? Why not a green one like the other crossing scenarios?

I’m sure there's a good reason, buggered if I can think of it though.

 

[Tomnick]

I’ve always understood it to not be a “crossing scenario” (as you sensibly put it!) as much as a “signal scenario”! The green handsignals are given by either the crossing keeper or the level crossing attendant, whereas if it’s given opposite the protecting signal it’ll be by a handsignalman and presumably could convey a signalling purpose, i.e. splitting the single line section - otherwise why bother with the handsignalman at all?

 

[martin2345uk]

I did think of that but wondered then why they lumped it in with Level Crossings rather than Signals... I’m sure this book could be clearer in places

 

[Llama]

Remember also that the yellow to proceed when shown opposite the signal on the proper line isn't restricted to just SLW (wrong direction).

 

[SlimJim1694]

I remember when I was doing my rules the instructor said not to overthink it. If it contains the word signal its yellow, if it doesn't then its green. Stop thinking about level crossings and ask yourself whether there is a signal involved. If you do that you'll never forget what colour you are supposed to be shown. Break it down, keep it simple. Don't overthink it.

 

[43066]

I remember when I was doing my rules the instructor said not to overthink it. If it contains the word signal its yellow, if it doesn't then its green. Stop thinking about level crossings and ask yourself whether there is a signal involved. If you do that you'll never forget what colour you are supposed to be shown. Break it down, keep it simple. Don't overthink it.

Great minds! That’s exactly the same thing I was told.

Works like a charm on the OP’s list of scenarios.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was told (many years ago) , a yellow is obviously a caution so proceed accordingly .....the change from a green flag (light) to yellow was about 1980 or so.

 

[GB]

Some years ago I used to work a manual gated level crossing next to a station that had a crossover at the other end of the station. The station was 8 cars long and any 12 car that needed to use the crossover for any reason (emergency or SLW etc) we would open the gates and give a yellow hand signal. Normal single line working that didn’t require the crossover we would display the normal green hand signal.

 

[4F89]

Because it is at the signal, not the crossing

 

[warwickshire]

on you tube . I don't know how to post video on here. It's a video on you tube called a perfect misunderstanding featuring a level crossing incident which can sadly happen when a driver and guard. Take the word off a track repair man acting as a attendant. And take train forward involving a signal passed at danger. Due to no communication or yellow flag. This type off mistake involving a lack off misunderstanding between each other is on there. Pls can someone help me and put this video on here again its called a video on you tube called a perfect misunderstanding

 

[EvoIV]

Effectively the level crossing is protected by the signal on the other line. But because you're moving in the wrong direction you now have to stop opposite the signal - it's not on your line. The yellow handsignal is then authoring you to pass this protecting signal. Without the handsignal you have to stop, don't forget that.

As said above, this handsignal is authorising you to pass that protecting signal for the crossing and thence the crossing which is why it is yellow. In the other scenarios the green handsignal is only authorising you to cross the crossing and gives no specific authority to pass any signal. But as also stated above don't overthink it as the arrangements for level crossings will be written on your single line working ticket and will tell you what to do. You may be surprised at some of the things that have been waved in the past when they've forgotten to get the correct flag or lamp out of the van/depot.

 

[warwickshire]

This mistake has happened and is on you tube due to no flag. Yellow. it's on the Bedford to bletchley line. And is made for all to see. But I need someone to help me and put this video onto this thread its called a perfect misunderstanding on you tube.

 

[martin2345uk]

So once you’ve accepted the yellow HS opposite the protecting signal, that’s your authorisation to continue across the crossing itself, or would you still expect a green one there in addition?

Thanks for all the replies!!

 

[ComUtoR]

Pls can someone help me and put this video on here again its called a video on you tube called a perfect misunderstanding

If you simply post the link it should automatically embed.

 

[EvoIV]

No you won't get a further green handsignal if you get a yellow at the protecting signal but again you just do what it says if your ticket.

 

[sw1ller]

So once you’ve accepted the yellow HS opposite the protecting signal, that’s your authorisation to continue across the crossing itself, or would you still expect a green one there in addition?

Thanks for all the replies!!

I’ll over think it for ya, here goes..

I think due to the close proximity of the signal to the crossing, a yellow then a green could be misleading/confusing. If you got a yellow then a green in normal running, you would power up and get going. But the green flag WOULD just be for the crossing, you’d still have to drive to the yellow flag. I guess it comes down to studies of memory retention and the previous accidents we’ve had/lessons learned. If the protecting signal is very close you’d see a yellow AND a green, what would you do then? Don’t forget, the rule book is written in a way to cover ALL eventualities, that’s what’s most confusing about it as half of it doesn’t make sense to your part of the country.

I think that’s why most people are saying don’t overthink it, keep it simple. So my simple answer to your original question is the same as everyone else has said, it’s because it’s a signal.

 

[Socanxdis]

Because in that case the signal is shown at the signal protecting the level crossing. The hand signal is to pass the signal at danger and a green hand signal is never (or should) never be used for passing signals at danger.

 

[Llama]

Don't forget the exception - where non-block signals are controlled by a crossing keeper and a green can be shown as authority to pass the protecting signal and over the crossing, if authorised in the sectional appendix. This isn't in the realms of SLW/WDM though.

 

[martin2345uk]

Don't forget the exception - where non-block signals are controlled by a crossing keeper and a green can be shown as authority to pass the protecting signal and over the crossing, if authorised in the sectional appendix. This isn't in the realms of SLW/WDM though.

Okay just remind me where that exception is in the rulebook..?

Otherwise I think I’m pretty much there, yellow to pass a signal, green to go over a crossing, it’ll all be explained by the pilotman in SLW and the signaller if it’s just passing a signal at danger, and stop overthinking it

 

[headshot119]

Okay just remind me where that exception is in the rulebook..?

Otherwise I think I’m pretty much there, yellow to pass a signal, green to go over a crossing, it’ll all be explained by the pilotman in SLW and the signaller if it’s just passing a signal at danger, and stop overthinking it

Not sure where it is in the rulebook, but take a look at the local instructions for NW4033 in the LNW(N) sectional appendix for an example.

 

[warwickshire]

If you simply post the link it should automatically embed.

Thank you very much

 

[Surreytraveller]

I always understood that a yellow handsignal was given, as the handsignaller could not know whether the next signal was green, yellow or red

 

[LAX54]

If this is SLW, unless it is at the end of the section, and going back to the right road, there would not be any need for a handsignalman at the crossing, the Driver would be advised at Crossings A B C etc he will get and green handsignal, (signals on the other road are ignored)

If it was in the right direction, under normal traffic, the Signaller would talk to the Driver on the GSM-R (or SPT if needed) pass that signal at Danger and obey the handsignal on the crossing, We have never worked with a handsignal giving a yellow, followed by a Green at the Crossing, it is asking for trouble.

The other thing that I did not see on that form, was....... if a CCTV is on local, there will be NO Handsignal given in the right direction.

At the very top of the list, on TCB under SLW, where it says yellow, unless there is a Handsignaller, the Pilotman will be with the Driver, who is a replacement for the Handsignaller, the only other time, there is no handsignaller, is when there is a Main Line aspect available to take train back to the right road.

 

[EvoIV]

The table is straight out of the rule book and as such as far as drivers are concerned is correct.

It quite clearly states that a yellow handsignal will be shown at any controlled crossing protected by signals where the handsignal is shown opposite the protecting signal.

This is correct. The fact that this may not happen very often, if ever, does not change the fact that this is in the rules and in these circumstances this is what drivers should do. It also has a note at the bottom that says a green handsignal will not be given where a level crossing attendant is not provided. What specific roles people are undertaking is of no interest to the driver, whether the staff present are performing the duties of level crossing attendant, s&t technician or mobile ops manager is irrelevant. All a driver needs to know is that if a level crossing attendant is provided they will give a green handsignal to proceed over the level crossing. Whether the person at the crossing is acting as level crossing attendant for every train is also irrelevant to the driver. If the person there is not going to give a green handsignal to a particular train the driver will be instructed accordingly by the pilotman on the ticket.

There is really no need to overcomplicate this. If you're told to stop before a crossing you stop. If you're told you need a handsignal to proceed over a crossing the rule book tells you that you need a green handsignal, unless the handsignal is provided opposite the protecting signal in which case you need a yellow handsignal. You will not get two handsignals for the crossing and no confusion arises.

 

[martin2345uk]

The table is straight out of the rule book and as such as far as drivers are concerned is correct.

It quite clearly states that a yellow handsignal will be shown at any controlled crossing protected by signals where the handsignal is shown opposite the protecting signal.

This is correct. The fact that this may not happen very often, if ever, does not change the fact that this is in the rules and in these circumstances this is what drivers should do.

Out of interest why is this so rare?

 

[EvoIV]

I don't know for a fact that it is - if it is then maybe it is to do with the type of crossing and it's interlocking with the signalling, but here I'm just speculating, I don't know for a fact.

 

[MotCO]

For a non-railway person, this is quite interesting and underlines the reason why training a new train driver is not just like learning to drive a car. The video was quite tellling, too.

 

[Llama]

Out of interest why is this so rare?

Possibly because there are fewer instances where the protecting signal is so close to the crossing (of the relevant type) that it makes those arrangements appropriate?

 

[LAX54]

on you tube . I don't know how to post video on here. It's a video on you tube called a perfect misunderstanding featuring a level crossing incident which can sadly happen when a driver and guard. Take the word off a track repair man acting as a attendant. And take train forward involving a signal passed at danger. Due to no communication or yellow flag. This type off mistake involving a lack off misunderstanding between each other is on there. Pls can someone help me and put this video on here again its called a video on you tube called a perfect misunderstanding

But that is an AHB on local, and not a controlled crossing, like a CCTV, which I assume is what the question is about, in such circimstances, there is always confusion, as the LXA rarely ever ever does as he is told by the Signaller with regards to the handsignal !

 

[SilentGrade]

More of a tricky question for you rules experts comes if you’re an Intermediate SB with a MCB outside. Would you display a Yellow or Green handsignal?