Russia invades Ukraine

[tommy2215]

We have just discussed that their Broadcasting license was taken away. Putin can now deflect criticism by saying that "Britain has censored/blocked/shut down the tv channel/your-wording-here RT" to deflect any domestic or international criticism.

Absolutely however we respond to what Putin is doing he is going to spin it to fit Russian propaganda. None of what he is doing is because we did it first, but there's nothing we can do to stop him claiming so. He is always going to try to come up with an excuse. Being scared of what you are saying is pointless.

 

[Yew]

None of what he is doing is because we did it first, but there's nothing we can do to stop him claiming so.

To be absolutely clear, in my initial post I said "they did it first" as I misremembered the order of events when making an off-the-cuff example - I could just have easily have chosen "but they're doing it too". I did not mean to present a case where Putin would intentionally misrepresent the past - merely that he can deflect any criticism of domestic censorship with an easy comment that is absolutely true.

Quite simply, can anyone state what we actually gain in exchange for giving Putin a legitimate and convenient excuse? Despite grandiose claims of "state propaganda", it's hardly like RT is a top-tier staple in the British television community.

 

[birchesgreen]

Quite simply, can anyone state what we actually gain in exchange for giving Putin a legitimate and convenient excuse? Despite grandiose claims of "state propaganda", it's hardly like RT is a top-tier staple in the British television community.

No i suspect their UK audience consisted mostly of people watching for a laugh and conspiracy nuts.

 

[AlterEgo]

But when questioned about such things, they can now trot out "but the Brits did it first", and if history has shown one thing, Russia loves whatabouttery. Perhaps it would have been better for me to say "plausible excuse", if you catch my meaning.

Who cares? They do things without plausible excuse anyway. Russia has accused Britain of egregious lies like wanting to use tactical nukes and staging the Bucha massacre, I hardly think telling fibs about whether Russian telly is allowed on British soil is beyond their moral capabilities.

 

[najaB]

I did not mean to present a case where Putin would intentionally misrepresent the past - merely that he can deflect any criticism of domestic censorship with an easy comment that is absolutely true.

"RT isn't available on broadcast TV" isn't exactly comparable to "You can be jailed for up to 16 years for calling the war in Ukraine a war".

 

[Yew]

"RT isn't available on broadcast TV" isn't exactly comparable to "You can be jailed for up to 16 years for calling the war in Ukraine a war".

I agree, but if we put on our shiniest Tony Blair teeth, it can be "spun" by Putin as if his policies are proportionate and equitable.

 

[DustyBin]

Quite simply, can anyone state what we actually gain in exchange for giving Putin a legitimate and convenient excuse? Despite grandiose claims of "state propaganda", it's hardly like RT is a top-tier staple in the British television community.

In all honestly I suspect it was a political decision (before I’m accused of stating the obvious read on!). Over the past couple of years (or more) there have been numerous calls within Parliament and the House of Lords to close RT down and the war has given the government an excuse. As an added bonus they’re being seen to be doing something (that phrase again!) in response to Russia’s actions. Revoking RT’s broadcasting license serves no real purpose but was a “quick win” politically IMO (that’s not to say I disagree with the decision though).

I agree, but if we put on our shiniest Tony Blair teeth, it can be "spun" by Putin as if his policies are proportionate and equitable.

I do understand where you’re coming from, but Putin will do what he wants anyway so I don’t see that we’ve really gifted him anything here.

 

[Mag_seven]

It has been drawn to our attention that some posters are being a bit personal with another - can we please refrain from this and also try to stick to discussing the war in Ukraine.

Thanks

 

[Yew]

I do understand where you’re coming from, but Putin will do what he wants anyway so I don’t see that we’ve really gifted him anything here.

However apart from some political points for the Tories, I don't understand what we've gained either.

 

[najaB]

I agree, but if we put on our shiniest Tony Blair teeth, it can be "spun" by Putin as if his policies are proportionate and equitable.

At this point, nobody outside Russia believes the Russian spin. And even the Russian people are starting to quietly question matters.

 

[ainsworth74]

At this point, nobody outside Russia believes the Russian spin.

Oh I dunno I rather suspect we have a few members floating around who are at least sympathetic to the Russian spin.

 

[Ediswan]

Is it just me or does Putin look pretty unwell in it?

I did notice that he is holding the table with his right hand throughout.

 

[takno]

I did notice that he is holding the table with his right hand throughout.

Problem is with shaky table, not with very stable dictator.

 

[Cloud Strife]

He does look quite frail there.

He does. It could be the sheer strain of everything, especially as analysts are saying that if the war in Donbas fails, then Russia will have no choice but to withdraw. If they withdraw, Putin's career is likely to be over.

The fascinating thing is that Putin called off the attack on the steelworks. Is this a clear sign that the growing death count just cannot be ignored, and that he was well aware that a bloody fight to the end would be broadcast all over the world?

 

[John Luxton]

Oh I dunno I rather suspect we have a few members floating around who are at least sympathetic to the Russian spin.

It would be interesting to know if there is an age thing about supposed pro Russian sympathies.

Are those who were around pre 1990 likely to be more sympathetic to the Russian angle?

For me, born in 1959 places such as Kiev were as much part of Russia as Moscow, I didn't differentiate as to what was USSR and just Russia.

The communist east comprised the nominally independent puppet Warsaw Pact states of GDR, Poland etc and "Russia".

With the collapse of Communism and the Soviet Union it was quite obvious the puppet states wanted to be affiliated to the west and promptly signed up to Nato and the EU.

However, the break up of the USSR is a different matter. Much of the Ukraine seems to be ethnically Russian, some in the east appear to want to be part of Russia.

It all appears rather complicated.

Putting it into historical context is Putin doing nothing more than the US did when it reclaimed the Confederacy?

Like most I am appalled by the death and destruction going one really needs to ask did this really need to happen?

However, I do believe that neutrality and an open mind is the best approach and I am siding with neither Vlad nor Vlod.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oh I dunno I rather suspect we have a few members floating around who are at least sympathetic to the Russian spin.

I think that's exactly the point. There probably aren't that many people in the UK who directly support Russia any more, but there are a lot of people who for some reason that I don't understand seem to refuse on principle to believe anything that professional UK journalists or professional UK independent media outlets report, preferring instead to believe whatever propaganda outlets they can find on the basis that it's somehow giving an alternative view. That despite that those propaganda outlets are usually controlled either by a foreign Government or by political groups and are primarily geared not at reporting news but at trying to drum up political support for their owners. Russia Today is arguably even worse than most because there's ample evidence that the Russian Government has for a long time been deliberately seeking to destablise Western democracies by sowing fake news and distrust of our political systems, and it's very likely that they have using RT for that purpose.

What we gain by removing its broadcase license is that we make it harder for Putin's regime to spread fake news and continue its attempts to damage our democracy.

 

[takno]

He does. It could be the sheer strain of everything, especially as analysts are saying that if the war in Donbas fails, then Russia will have no choice but to withdraw. If they withdraw, Putin's career is likely to be over.

The fascinating thing is that Putin called off the attack on the steelworks. Is this a clear sign that the growing death count just cannot be ignored, and that he was well aware that a bloody fight to the end would be broadcast all over the world?

Attacking the steelworks has always looked like a pretty stupid move, which is why they kept giving deadlines. Right now they've got thousands of troops occupied down there waiting to occupy the place, and they would clearly be facing a horrible death toll. They've also threatened to use all sorts of fancy bombs which, even if they actually have them, probably don't actually work. Why show their hands when they can probably keep the steelworks holed up with a couple of hundred troops and some very ordinary guns?

 

[John Luxton]

I think that's exactly the point. There probably aren't that many people in the UK who directly support Russia any more, but there are a lot of people who for some reason that I don't understand seem to refuse on principle to believe anything that professional UK journalists or professional UK independent media outlets report.

For me I was quite trusting of UK media, in particular the BBC until March 2020. I had reached the age of 60 and had been a die hard BBC fan both Radio 4 Today / PM and TV news since a child. I can still recall Alvar Lidell reading the radio news! I always thought the BBC did try very hard to be neutral and never saw the left / right bias often claimed by the Conservatives or Labour despite being a lifelong conservative.

Unfortunately, unbalanced, unquestioning Covid reporting changed all that. I imagine I wasn't the only person to lose faith in mainstream media in the light of Covid.

Some faith has returned since GB News appeared but I have now become more questioning of what I am being fed and why I am being fed it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Much of the Ukraine seems to be ethnically Russian, some in the east appear to want to be part of Russia.

Some, but not many by all accounts. I've never really seen anything to suggest that the separatist movements and "governments" are anything other than Russian funded (and often Russian staffed) stooges. I'm sure there are some people in Luhansk and Donetsk who would rather join Russia (though I suspect rather fewer of them now) but without Russia deliberately stirring up trouble and funding that trouble it would have been a minority pursuit a bit like Cornish independence from England is here.

Putting it into historical context is Putin doing nothing more than the US did when it reclaimed the Confederacy?

Surely it is quite different as it was the Confederacy that started that particular conflict when they bombarded Fort Sumpter? Until then by my understanding Lincoln was fairly keen on trying to reach a negotiated settlement to the secession crisis (with the individual states though rather than the Confederate government as he refused to recognise it's authority) that his election has precipitated. For it to be truly comparable Ukraine would have had to have attacked Russia first (perhaps bombarding Sevastopol)?

Like most I am appalled by the death and destruction going one really needs to ask did this really need to happen?

Indeed it didn't need to happen but Putin rather took that decision out of everyone else's hands.

I think that's exactly the point. There probably aren't that many people in the UK who directly support Russia any more, but there are a lot of people who for some reason that I don't understand seem to refuse on principle to believe anything that professional UK journalists or professional UK independent media outlets report, preferring instead to believe whatever propaganda outlets they can find on the basis that it's somehow giving an alternative view. That despite that those propaganda outlets are usually controlled either by a foreign Government or by political groups and are primarily geared not at reporting news but at trying to drum up political support for their owners. Russia Today is arguably even worse than most because there's ample evidence that the Russian Government has for a long time been deliberately seeking to destablise Western democracies by sowing fake news and distrust of our political systems, and it's very likely that they have using RT for that purpose.

Quite! I remain utterly baffled by this!

 

[DustyBin]

However apart from some political points for the Tories, I don't understand what we've gained either.

I think you have, to a large degree, answered your own question there!

 

[brad465]

Video of Putin's meeting earlier with Sergei Shoigu to discuss Mariupol and calling off the Azovstal steel mill assault.

Is it just me or does Putin look pretty unwell in it?

I did notice that he is holding the table with his right hand throughout.

I've seen a few who believe he may have Parkinson's Disease, which they've taken from their experiences of caring for someone with it and from his actions, such as keeping one hand firmly on the desk.

 

[John Luxton]

Some, but not many by all accounts. I've never really seen anything to suggest that the separatist movements and "governments" are anything other than Russian funded (and often Russian staffed) stooges. I'm sure there are some people in Luhansk and Donetsk who would rather join Russia (though I suspect rather fewer of them now) but without Russia deliberately stirring up trouble and funding that trouble it would have been a minority pursuit a bit like Cornish independence from England is here.

Surely it is quite different as it was the Confederacy that started that particular conflict when they bombarded Fort Sumpter? Until then by my understanding Lincoln was fairly keen on trying to reach a negotiated settlement to the secession crisis (with the individual states though rather than the Confederate government as he refused to recognise it's authority) that his election has precipitated. For it to be truly comparable Ukraine would have had to have attacked Russia first (perhaps bombarding Sevastopol)?


Indeed it didn't need to happen but Putin rather took that decision out of everyone else's hands.

Quite! I remain utterly baffled by this!

Interesting you should mention Cornish independence ancestrally on my mother side there is a bit of Cornish and independence is something I am slightly sympathetic I even have a Cornish flag on the back of my car. It is something that will happen "dreckly" I would interpret certain areas of Ukraine being somewhat more motivated in their support for Russia than the Cornish are for gaining independence. How much is due to Russian meddling we really don't know and can one trust the Ukraine to be totally honest? The Crimean referendum showed overwhelming support to join the Russian Federation back in 2014.

Whether the CSA or USA fired the first shots is not really relevant. The fact is the USA didn't like the idea of secession otherwise Lincoln could just have allowed them to leave.

I wonder though if much of misery brought on the citizens of eastern Ukraine could not have been avoided if Zalensky had just withdrawn his forces. Basically we have two leaders with the civilian population caught between two armies.

Looking back at events from World War II the declaration of Paris as an open city and the withdrawal of British troops from the Channel Islands probably saved civilian lives and safeguarded property and infrastructure.

With Ukraine this isn't a clear cut case of one sovereign nation attacking another - say Russia vs Finland - but Russia with an area once considered by most to be Russian.

Whatever the rights and wrongs the senseless killing and destruction needs to stop.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

For me I was quite trusting of UK media, in particular the BBC until March 2020. I had reached the age of 60 and had been a die hard BBC fan both Radio 4 Today / PM and TV news since a child. I can still recall Alvar Lidell reading the radio news! I always thought the BBC did try very hard to be neutral and never saw the left / right bias often claimed by the Conservatives or Labour despite being a lifelong conservative.

Unfortunately, unbalanced, unquestioning Covid reporting changed all that. I imagine I wasn't the only person to lose faith in mainstream media in the light of Covid.

If you don't mind my saying so, I think that's a mistake.

I actually had a similar experience to you, but 3 months later: Like you, I had always trusted the BBC as a largely factual and politically neutral source. But that changed in June 2020 when suddenly the news got swamped by BLM and identity politics, and it very quickly seemed to me that the way the BBC (as well as most 'progressive' media outlets) were reporting all the issues around identity politics was coming from a set of values that I couldn't identify with, and since then I've largely lost faith in the BBC when it comes to communicating those values.

But here's the thing: There's a vast difference between communicating a set of values and factually reporting on what events are happening. It's perfectly possible to be doing one thing properly but not the other. I've never seen any reason to doubt that the BBC does report events as accurately as they are able, even though I feel alienated from their cultural values. In the end, the BBC does employ professional journalists; they are tasked with reporting impartially what's going on in the world, and I think you're making a huge mistake if you refuse to believe what they are saying about what's happening in Ukraine, just because you feel things went wrong over Covid (which is a totally different issue). Besides, pretty much all UK newspapers are independently reporting the same events, despite that these newspapers have very different political slants on UK politics. You may note that the Telegraph, which during Covid repeatedly questioned the 'perceived wisdom' about lockdowns etc., is likewise reporting the same events about Ukraine: That Russia has invaded a sovereign country without provocation, and their troops have set about slaughtering, raping, and torturing civilians as they go. There's really no plausible doubt that that is the main gist of what is happening, and if you try to seek out information that denies that on the pretext of somehow not taking sides, then you are deluding yourself about what is going on.

I don't know what exactly you think the BBC got wrong over Covid - I'm going to hazard a guess that that in your mind they gave too much credence to the opinions of experts about how to deal with a pandemic that at the time we didn't know enough about, and you therefore think they supported lockdowns too much. But I think you'd be wise to separate out your belief that that was a mistake from the ability of the BBC and other news sources to impartially report on what events are happening - which on the whole they do.

 

[najaB]

The Crimean referendum showed overwhelming support to join the Russian Federation back in 2014.

You mean the referendum that was conducted at gun-point?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

With Ukraine this isn't a clear cut case of one sovereign nation attacking another - say Russia vs Finland - but Russia with an area once considered by most to be Russian.

Err. yes it is a very clear cut case of one sovereign nation attacking another. I repeat: If you doubt that, or try to find excuses for denying it, then you are simply deluding yourself about what is happening.

 

[kermit]

None of the top ten news stories on the BBC site featured Ukraine just now. That's the extent of our collective attention span.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

However, I do believe that neutrality and an open mind is the best approach and I am siding with neither Vlad nor Vlod.

If you were walking down the street, and you saw - say - a large gang of youths attacking an old woman, and you saw her lying on the ground while they were kicking her and beating her up: Would you refuse to take sides on the basis that neutrality and and open mind are the best approach?

Because that is the logic of what you are saying in regards to Ukraine.

 

[najaB]

None of the top ten news stories on the BBC site featured Ukraine just now. That's the extent of our collective attention span.

Are you looking at the same website that I am? At the moment about half the homepage is devoted to Ukraine-related news:

 

[Roast Veg]

How much is due to Russian meddling we really don't know and can one trust the Ukraine to be totally honest? The Crimean referendum showed overwhelming support to join the Russian Federation back in 2014.

If that referendum had been free and fair, then Crimea would be recognised as an integral part of Russia by more than a handful of nations. As it stands, the regular Russian electoral process is not regarded as anything other than a sham even by many Russian citizens. Ditto Belarus.

I wonder though if much of misery brought on the citizens of eastern Ukraine could not have been avoided if Zalensky had just withdrawn his forces. Basically we have two leaders with the civilian population caught between two armies.

With Ukraine this isn't a clear cut case of one sovereign nation attacking another - say Russia vs Finland - but Russia with an area once considered by most to be Russian.

This is, as posted above, a very clear case of an illegal encroachment on a sovereign nation by another. The USSR wasn't "put on hold" for a while, it was broken up - any territorial claims the current Russian Federation makes beyond the borders it had in 1991 lack any legitimacy.

 

[nw1]

View attachment 113384
Wimbledon coming in for criticism for banning Russian and Belarus players; well last night at a production of Carmen which normally has a cast of Moldavians, Ukrainians, and Russian singers. No Russian singers were performing and at the curtain call the Ukraine flag was displayed together with the subtitle display to a standing ovation from the audience.

I don't think it's right to ban someone "just because they are Russian". That is sending the message that "all Russians are Putin supporters and supporters of the war" which of course is blatantly false.

We really must not stoop to this level, and condemning all Russians when many or perhaps even most Russians hate Putin (though they may be frightened to admit it) is not good IMO.