Saved £1.70 with my railcard, now they want to charge £125.50

[bb21]

It seems like an absurd fine above anything else. I'm very aware that it's clearly stated the ticket isn't valid if I can't present my railcard and blah blah blah, it just seems like an unreasonably high amount to fine, is all. It also would've been nice if I had been advised at the time that it would cost even more if I didn't pay there and then. She simply said that they would write to me and I would have to pay the fine later. Since all I had at the time was my bank card and using it would've meant exceeding my arranged overdraft, I didn't want that unnecessary expense.

If I understand you correctly, you were unable to pay the full single fare on the spot. I am not sure what they said at the time could have changed this.

You had a discounted ticket you were unable to show your entitlement to, therefore you were asked to pay for a valid travel ticket at the time. Nothing absurd I can see. It is the fact that you had no money to pay for a valid ticket at the time of travel that escalated the matter.

An unfortunate turn of events, probably, but one where you have no one to blame but yourself, unfortunately.

So as others mentioned, pay it, so at least you stop the matter escalating further, and then suck up to them afterwards and ask politely if they would consider waiving part of the admin fee as a goodwill gesture. If you don't ask, you don't get, but there is no guarantee.

Alternatively send them a cheque for the £30.50, and another one for £95. Plead with them and "beg" them, they may not cash the second cheque if you are lucky, but again there is no guarantee, especially if your attitude on the day (which I have no knowledge of) left much to be desired.

 

[TheEdge]

It seems like an absurd fine above anything else. I'm very aware that it's clearly stated the ticket isn't valid if I can't present my railcard and blah blah blah, it just seems like an unreasonably high amount to fine, is all. It also would've been nice if I had been advised at the time that it would cost even more if I didn't pay there and then. She simply said that they would write to me and I would have to pay the fine later. Since all I had at the time was my bank card and using it would've meant exceeding my arranged overdraft, I didn't want that unnecessary expense.

And? To be brutally frank your opinion on whether it is reasonable is meaningless. The rules state that if you don't have the railcard you have to pay an Anytime Single fare. Black and white in the T&Cs with no wiggle room.

£100 and 3 penalty points on a driving license for doing 36mph in a 30 zone might seem excessive but it doesn't matter, thats what its going to be.

Long story short. Pay, you can beg for goodwill but I doubt it and don't forget your railcard.

 

[Flamingo]

The OP was given the option of buying a walk-up ticket as their twice-discounted ticket was not valid. The point that nobody seems to be picking up on was that it was not a £1.70 discount on the full ticket, but a £1.70 discount on an already heavily discounted ticket.

By refusing to pay this, the OP has caused the TOC to incur administrative charges, INCLUDING the costs of having structures in place to detect people travelling on invalid tickets.

Sometimes, the cost of "Honest Mistakes" can be high, as they are indistinguishable from criminal acts.

As regards the proportionality of the costs, they are NOT a fine. That would be higher and also a racing certainty if the OP refuses to pay.

On a further point, I would agree that the local MP's, papers etc are busy enough without being troubled by minor stuff like this.

 

[222007]

tldr - I bought an advance ticket for £5.00 and used my Railcard to get it down to £3.30. I forgot my Railcard and they wanted to fine me £30.50 which I didn't have. They took my address and the RPSS now want to fine me £125.50. Is there anything I can do?

Hi,

I booked an advance ticket from Southampton Central to London Victoria at the cost of £5.00 using the Southern Only route (takes an additional hour compared to any route, but you can get this very cheap ticket) as I was travelling on next to no money (lived on Lidl pasta and tomato sauce!), and I used my 16-25 Railcard to get another £1.70 off, taking it to £3.30.

Anyway, once I got to Victoria, my ticket wouldn't work and I had to seek assistance. Okay, no big deal. She asks for my Railcard. As I look for it, I notice I've forgotten to switch it over to my new wallet. She tries to fine me £30.50! This is the price of buying an Anytime ticket, making all the cost-reduction I had carefully planned all go to waste. I can't even afford to pay this, so I tell her that and she takes down my name and address, as well as checks my provisional driving licence.

I don't think much of it and expect to be able to settle the matter more reasonably once they contact me by post. Surely saving £1.70 on a ticket doesn't warrant a £30.50 fine? I get that this is their policy but it's seems incredibly disproportionate in this case. Anyway, I get a very threatening letter from the Revenue Protection Support Services talking about prosecution and things which I assume is probably their way of getting people to act fast, and they invite me to send the letter back and include additional details about the "incident". I do this straight away, well within their seven day time limit. I include exactly what happened, with references and photocopies of both my Railcard and my bought ticket confirmation email.

Got a letter back today and I'm looking forward to a more reasonable response. I open it to read "there is nothing in your response which negates your legal liability in this matter". And to protect "fare paying customers" (as if I am not) they prosecute all people reported for "fare evasion" (which I didn't do). However, because of the particular circumstances and it's my first offence, they are willing to settle prior to Court Summons if I pay the £30.50 fine, as well as £95 towards costs, totalling £125.50 within 21 days.

Please help! I've only just started working and I'm still in serious debts after University. This can't be reasonable, surely! I'm going to Citizens Advice tomorrow, but will appreciate any additional help from you guys.

This is taken from the Railcard leaflet and part of your terms and conditions

6. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

This is exactly what the staff tried to do before you inability to pay which is more than reasonable. You signed (i assume) your railcard to say you agree to abide by the t&c's you did not do that. This is why details were taken.

As other posters have said Pay what is being requested or potentially you could face a criminal record and even bigger fine and costs

 

[neilmc]

I agree with the other posters in that they've got you banged to rights and there isn't much you can do about paying the "fine" for not having your railcard.

Where I would disagree is that there is no point in involving the press or your local MP - as this was an error of omission and not deliberate fraud, and that the cost was wildly disproportionate to the intended saving, it may make a good local story.

At least you can endeavour to gain the TOC some negative publicity and incur them the additional cost of "a spokesperson" having to look into the details and come up with an explanation for the general public, even though on this forum we are only too familiar with this kind of event. If it turns out nobody is interested after all, you've lost nothing extra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - while it is clear you have to pay, I see no particular stipulation (unless the settlement came with a non-disclosure agreement, which I have never heard of) for you having to pay with good grace

 

[DaleCooper]

Where I would disagree is that there is no point in involving the press or your local MP - as this was an error of omission and not deliberate fraud, and that the cost was wildly disproportionate to the intended saving, it may make a good local story.

At least you can endeavour to gain the TOC some negative publicity and incur them the additional cost of "a spokesperson" having to look into the details and come up with an explanation for the general public, even though on this forum we are only too familiar with this kind of event. If it turns out nobody is interested after all, you've lost nothing extra.

Oh come on, you know how the media distort such stories, and the extra cost to the TOC is ultimately borne by passengers.

 

[najaB]

...and that the cost was wildly disproportionate to the intended saving...

Again, that is the full fare for the journey taken, I don't see how that is disproportionate. There were probably a half-dozen or more other people on the train who paid that fare without a fuss by walking up to a TVM and buying the first ticket listed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Where I would disagree is that there is no point in involving the press or your local MP - as this was an error of omission and not deliberate fraud, and that the cost was wildly disproportionate to the intended saving, it may make a good local story.

"Man can't pay fine, tries to negotiate to pay in instalments, gets charged another £95".

I'd agree with this tbh.

 

[DaleCooper]

"Man can't pay fine, tries to negotiate to pay in instalments, gets charged another £95".

I'd agree with this tbh.

Unfortunately very few journalists are able or willing to put it as succintly as you have, they just have to embroider and exaggerate, it's in their genes.

 

[Greenback]

Again, that is the full fare for the journey taken, I don't see how that is disproportionate. There were probably a half-dozen or more other people on the train who paid that fare without a fuss by walking up to a TVM and buying the first ticket listed.

I suppose it might be argued that the full fare is too high compared the cheap Advance fare! I've argued this in the past, and I still think it would be better if the price differentials between the highest and lowest fares should be narrower, but I think it's fair to say that my views did not have universal support!

I doubt it really needs saying again, Stark, but I'm afraid you need to pay this.

 

[6Gman]

It seems like an absurd fine above anything else. I'm very aware that it's clearly stated the ticket isn't valid if I can't present my railcard and blah blah blah, it just seems like an unreasonably high amount to fine, is all.

It was not a fine - the £30.50 was a request to pay the fare due.

The £95 was not a fine - it was a request to pay a sum toward their costs.

You could, of course, tell them to "***** it, I'm not paying that".

In which case they will almost certainly take you to court.

You can then try to persuade the magistrates to impose a lower figure (which may then involve a fine).

They probably won't.

Incidentally, on this point of forgetting the relevant railcard. As the son of a railwayman, who then worked on the railway, my travel has always involved carrying ticket + identity card. In over 50 years I cannot ever, ever remember travelling without both documents. Before boarding I always check that I have the relevant documents.

As a certain meerkat says, simples!

 

[timbo58]

I am all for cheap promotional fares but IMHO these super advance 'penny' fares especially when further discounted are ridiculous.

They bear no relation whatsoever to the journey being made and then exacerbate issues when mis-used simply become the disparity between them and normal fares is misunderstood.

As others have said -£30.50 was an undiscounted standard fare, not even a penalty fare.

£30.50 is what everyone without advance discounted tickets would have paid sitting on the same train for the same journey in the same class.

You can view/spin this any way you like but the Toc has already offered you the most generous way out of your predicament once (the single fare), I don't want to be unkind but:

You decide who is to blame.

The RC was left behind
The Single fare wasn't bought when offered

Would it have made any difference if the Toc staff had warned you that the company might decide to prosecute you if you left without paying this fare?
You've already said you couldn't pay it then & there.

 

[NSEFAN]

I am all for cheap promotional fares but IMHO these super advance 'penny' fares especially when further discounted are ridiculous.

They bear no relation whatsoever to the journey being made and then exacerbate issues when mis-used simply become the disparity between them and normal fares is misunderstood.

I think such fares have their place to encourage passengers to use quieter services, but people need to understand what they're buying. I think the majority do manage this, but some don't. As a result they don't take the consequences seriously enough and make sure they have their railcards with them, or catch the correct train, etc.

 

[AM9]

I think such fares have their place to encourage passengers to use quieter services, but people need to understand what they're buying. I think the majority do manage this, but some don't. As a result they don't take the consequences seriously enough and make sure they have their railcards with them, or catch the correct train, etc.

Would the OP turn up at an airport ready to fly overseas having 'accidentally' left his passport at home (assuming he has one)?
I assume not as he would have ascertained that the rules wouldn't let him fly. Then why does he not understand the (fairly simple) rules for using a railcard.
There may not be criminal intent to defraud, but there was negligence for which the OP simply has to pay the price. That wil hopefully ensure one or more of the following:
1) He will remember the rules of card use that he signed up to and always carry it
2) He may never use a railcard again, - or even travel by train
3) He will take the risk again, possible get caught again and maybe next time not be given the option to avoid a penalty fare, a cash settlement, and be given a real fine and a bonus criminal record.
It seems that refusal to acknowledge his position and accept the good advice that he asked for on this forum, may lead to example No. 3. Why do so many enrol on this website just to get a reply that mitigates their rail travel mistakes/misdemeanours/scams?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the OP turn up at an airport ready to fly overseas having 'accidentally' left his passport at home (assuming he has one)?

Not deliberately, one would assume. But people do do this, and the only sanction is losing their flight, because passports are always checked before boarding. (They might have other consequential losses as well, such as other holiday costs, but then so might a rail passenger). They might then choose to purchase another flight at high cost, but they can also choose to abandon their trip and leave it at that.

OTOH, because this check does not occur on the railways, occasionally people "get away with" forgetting, and occasionally they are found to have forgotten at the end, or during the journey. In this situation the passenger has no choice not to travel, as they already have done, and must pay.

I won't debate the rights and wrongs of that here as there is another thread on the subject, but while the OP must pay, I think laying into him in the manner some have is excessive. If there was no intent to avoid the fare, he has made an unfortunate error, of which he has to pay the costs. That's all. If there *was* intent, then it's time to treat people as common criminals.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems that refusal to acknowledge his position and accept the good advice that he asked for on this forum, may lead to example No. 3. Why do so many enrol on this website just to get a reply that mitigates their rail travel mistakes/misdemeanours/scams?

Of course they are logging onto here to find out if there is a way to reduce the cost to them, avoid prosecution etc. Sometimes there indeed is, such as where someone has been sent a summons but the forum suggests they should offer an out of court settlement instead, which is often accepted.

Why would anyone ever join a railway forum in order to simply state that they had been fined for failure to carry their railcard, thank you very much, have a good day? To most people it is embarrassing. So of course there is a motive.

 

[DaleCooper]

Of course they are logging onto here to find out if there is a way to reduce the cost to them, avoid prosecution etc. Sometimes there indeed is, such as where someone has been sent a summons but the forum suggests they should offer an out of court settlement instead, which is often accepted.

Why would anyone ever join a railway forum in order to simply state that they had been fined for failure to carry their railcard, thank you very much, have a good day? To most people it is embarrassing. So of course there is a motive.

Unfortunately in many cases it appears they are looking for a "Get out of jail free" card which hardens attitudes on the forum. How many times do we hear them seeking mitigation because of stress, career prospects, collection of old tickets etc. Of course sometimes these are genuine (but irrelevant) but you can understand some cynicism.

 

[AM9]

Unfortunately in many cases it appears they are looking for a "Get out of jail free" card which hardens attitudes on the forum. How many times do we hear them seeking mitigation because of stress, career prospects, collection of old tickets etc. Of course sometimes these are genuine (but irrelevant) but you can understand some cynicism.

Also, how often does the picture change when more clarification is asked for. *
If new posters think that they have genuinely been treated badly, and then new facts are prised from them that indicate a degree of culpability in the traveller, I think that would be an abuse of the help that expert members are willing to offer. These posters frequently disappear into the ether when they have been rumbled.

* This comment is not aimed at this poster.

 

[Stark]

Would the OP turn up at an airport ready to fly overseas having 'accidentally' left his passport at home (assuming he has one)?
I assume not as he would have ascertained that the rules wouldn't let him fly. Then why does he not understand the (fairly simple) rules for using a railcard.
There may not be criminal intent to defraud, but there was negligence for which the OP simply has to pay the price. That wil hopefully ensure one or more of the following:
1) He will remember the rules of card use that he signed up to and always carry it
2) He may never use a railcard again, - or even travel by train
3) He will take the risk again, possible get caught again and maybe next time not be given the option to avoid a penalty fare, a cash settlement, and be given a real fine and a bonus criminal record.
It seems that refusal to acknowledge his position and accept the good advice that he asked for on this forum, may lead to example No. 3. Why do so many enrol on this website just to get a reply that mitigates their rail travel mistakes/misdemeanours/scams?

I think you may have misunderstood me.

I haven't actually posted much in this thread and I fully understand my position and I fully understand the rules of a railcard. Of course it's only my fault that I forgot my railcard, and I have clearly breached their terms. I have also accepted the good advice that I have asked for (as well as previously thanking people for their input) and will pay the costs, but appeal to relevant places.

My point is that it seems like an extremely high fine for an honest mistake, after proving that I had bought the ticket and my railcard. A lot of people are suggesting that it's the easiest thing in the world to check you have things like your railcard before travelling - and yes it is. However, sometimes you can make mistakes with extremely simply things. I am definitely guilty of this kind of thing (as is shown with this accident). I can honestly say that there has been no other time I have travelled without my railcard, and it had become so second-nature to me that I always kept it in my wallet, I didn't think about it when I changed my wallet. On my journey, I was also travelling via many different modes of transport and got a bit flustered in the planning and preparations - I took Megabus, National Express and National Rail. As you can no doubt tell by now, planning is not one of my strong points.

A passport is slightly different as it is a legal document that is absolutely required. I was hoping for a much smaller fine as a railcard involves discretion rather than a legal absolute. Paying the £30.50 particularly bothered me as the only reason I was travelling was because I found it so cheap. There is no way I would have travelled at that price (especially since I didn't even have that money available to me). The railcard on top was a "why not?" move that I wasn't too bothered about since it's only £1.70, but has ended up costing me £120 more. This is my problem. At least now I know not to use a railcard if I'm only saving a very small amount. I guess previously I was just naively thinking they would be more forgiving if such an incident was to occur.

 

[Busaholic]

When will some smartarse lawyer/accountant start arguing that fare 'avoidance' is not the same as fare 'evasion' and, in fact, should be actively encouraged to the benefit of all right-minded people, especially financial and legal advisors of all stripes?

 

[Merseysider]

When will some smartarse lawyer/accountant start arguing that fare 'avoidance' is not the same as fare 'evasion' and, in fact, should be actively encouraged to the benefit of all right-minded people, especially financial and legal advisors of all stripes?

I think a lot of us on this forum already engage in fare 'avoidance' especially when it's with CrossCountry!

I don't think a forgotten railcard could realistically be classed as fare 'evasion' but it unfortunately carries similar consequences.

Stark, please don't let emotion get in the way of rational thinking - it's all about damage limitation now.

 

[AM9]

I think you may have misunderstood me.
........My point is that it seems like an extremely high fine for an honest mistake, after proving that I had bought the ticket and my railcard. A lot of people are suggesting that it's the easiest thing in the world to check you have things like your railcard before travelling - and yes it is. However, sometimes you can make mistakes with extremely simply things. I am definitely guilty of this kind of thing (as is shown with this accident). I can honestly say that there has been no other time I have travelled without my railcard, and it had become so second-nature to me that I always kept it in my wallet, I didn't think about it when I changed my wallet. On my journey, I was also travelling via many different modes of transport and got a bit flustered in the planning and preparations - I took Megabus, National Express and National Rail. As you can no doubt tell by now, planning is not one of my strong points.

As far as I can see you haven't been fined. They can only demand payment of money for things that are defined in the terms and conditions you agree to when before you travel. They can also make a demand for reasonable costs incurred when a customer not fully complying with the agreed terms and conditions.

A passport is slightly different as it is a legal document that is absolutely required. I was hoping for a much smaller fine as a railcard involves discretion rather than a legal absolute. Paying the £30.50 particularly bothered me as the only reason I was travell1ing was because I found it so cheap. There is no way I would have travelled at that price (especially since I didn't even have that money available to me). The railcard on top was a "why not?" move that I wasn't too bothered about since it's only £1.70, but has ended up costing me £120 more. This is my problem. At least now I know not to use a railcard if I'm only saving a very small amount. I guess previously I was just naively thinking they would be more forgiving if such an incident was to occur.

A rail ticket is just as much a legal document as a passport. It gives you legal authority to travel on the railway in accordance with the conditions that apply to it. If you knowingly breach those conditions you are committing fraud. I don't think that anybody posting in this thread believes that you did that, but the TOC representative who stopped you couldn't know that. He did however do the correct thing and charge the normal fare for the journey taken, i.e. £30.50. Your inability to pay meant that he had to process the matter through the TOC's system which meant the £95 was requested.
In futuer you should continue to use any legitimate means of fare reduction (e.g. your railcard) but just remember this event as it highlights the importance of following the rules.

As a slight aside, I intend to travel between WFJ and BHI for less than £4.00 each way next Tuesday, I regard that as a bargain for over 100 miles travel. I will have to catch a specific train each way and remember my Senior Railcard. If I fail on either of those things then I can expect to get chatrged the full rate for the journey, - probably at least £20, maybe more. I wont be expecting any quick get-out to avoid the costs if I don't play their game by the rules.

 

[Stark]

Sheesh people seem pretty unforgiving here. Well I'll stop repeating myself and just post when I have results I guess. Also although you say I should keep using my railcard - that's not gonna happen. If I do travel by train again, I'll be assessing the cost reduction against the risk of the potential of not having it / losing it etc. and I won't be buying another. I don't travel that much.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Sorry if this has been posted before but if the OP was offered to pay £30.50 on the spot, but he couldn't pay, why couldn't the TOC give 30 days for payment (rather like a parking fine, but without the early-pay reduction)?

Then if payment wasn't received, the TOC could go for prosecution

I know this isn't how the TOC "works" but this does seem a fairer system for an honest mistake IMHO

 

[najaB]

Sorry if this has been posted before but if the OP was offered to pay £30.50 on the spot, but he couldn't pay, why couldn't the TOC give 30 days for payment (rather like a parking fine, but without the early-pay reduction)?

In theory they could issue an unpaid fare notice for the £30.50, I don't know if any TOCs do this.

 

[Merseysider]

Sorry if this has been posted before but if the OP was offered to pay £30.50 on the spot, but he couldn't pay, why couldn't the TOC give 30 days for payment (rather like a parking fine, but without the early-pay reduction)?

Then if payment wasn't received, the TOC could go for prosecution

I know this isn't how the TOC "works" but this does seem a fairer system for an honest mistake IMHO

Because if word got round the railway was "travel now, pay next month - 0% interest!" everyone would be doing it

 

[Flamingo]

After word gets out, the vast majority of the time the conversation goes something like:
"What's your name and address?'
"Joe Bloggs, 15 Any Road, Any Town, AA9 99A"
"Any ID on you?'
"No"
and away he goers, never to be heard from again...

I had one last Sunday, I didn't bother issuing a UFN after the mate with him (who had a ticket) says to him "Isn't that where Kirsty lives?" after he gave me an address. Chappie locks himself in the loo for the rest of the journey. Late at night, no revenue staff at any of the station. Only consolation was he left his new pack of tobacco in the loo when he got off. I flushed it.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Because if word got round the railway was "travel now, pay next month - 0% interest!" everyone would be doing it

Not really because the unpaid fare would be higher than the original fare

Anyway this is getting seriously OT...

 

[Merseysider]

Only consolation was he left his new pack of tobacco in the loo when he got off. I flushed it.

Should have sold it on in the messroom!

Not really because the unpaid fare would be higher than the original fare

Anyway this is getting seriously OT...

After about half nine: I agree; you are correct.
At "peak time" no because the Anytime fare will be the one sold regardless.

And yes I agree this is rather OT. Apologies to the OP and mods.

 

[The Decapod]

Perhaps some independent research would be useful. Find out whether the train operator's own 'escalation process' has been adhered to properly.

Ultimately you could make a complaint to the ORR (Office of Rail Regulation).

http://orr.gov.uk/info-for-passengers/complaints