Say NO to Smart Meters

[GusB]

Which used published rates, on at published times which do not rapidly change.

This is very different from electricity prices that change unpredictably from one minute to the next.
At most we should have something like EDF's Option Tempo.

While those rates may be published, they do vary from area to area, as do the times at which those rates apply. The peak/off peak times are determined at a central location while local conditions may dictate that it's more peak in one area than another. A smarter system may be able to figure out that today is a total roaster in one part of the country and that everyone is at the beach, therefore if you happen to be stuck at home, now might be a good time to run the washing machine.

We don't all work nine-to-five, and we don't all sit and watch Corrie at the same time these days, so peak demand is far less predictable than it used to be. A system that can monitor an individual household's usage and offer a price incentive to lower demand at certain times might not be a bad thing.

Have your pricing structure, but also have the ability to offer discounts to encourage usage when there is less demand.

 

[HSTEd]

While those rates may be published, they do vary from area to area, as do the times at which those rates apply. The peak/off peak times are determined at a central location while local conditions may dictate that it's more peak in one area than another. A smarter system may be able to figure out that today is a total roaster in one part of the country and that everyone is at the beach, therefore if you happen to be stuck at home, now might be a good time to run the washing machine.

We don't all work nine-to-five, and we don't all sit and watch Corrie at the same time these days, so peak demand is far less predictable than it used to be. A system that can monitor an individual household's usage and offer a price incentive to lower demand at certain times might not be a bad thing.

Have your pricing structure, but also have the ability to offer discounts to encourage usage when there is less demand.

The danger is that 'flexibility' to offer discounts will very rapidly become a way to extract usurious rates for electricity at times when people cannot avoid using electricity.
For example kettle and toaster usage during the early morning, or oven usage during the evening.

The Option Tempo does allow you to sell discounted electricity like that, in fact it demonstrates the dominance of nuclear power in France in that their 'Economy 8' night style rate is beaten by Option Tempo's day-time rate for the majority of the year.

If it ain't at absolute peak usage, the electricity is cheap.

 

[GusB]

The danger is that 'flexibility' to offer discounts will very rapidly become a way to extract usurious rates for electricity at times when people cannot avoid using electricity.
For example kettle and toaster usage during the early morning, or oven usage during the evening.

My kettle and toaster rarely see use before 10am, but that's purely because of the hours that I work! I take your point to an extent, but I think we all need to think hard about how we use energy these days. It might seem a bit nanny-state and all that, but if the gadget in the cupboard under the stairs says that I could save the cost of a couple of pints by remembering to switch off the odd lightbulb, I'm all for it.

As an aside, the combination of being on benefits and having pre-payment meters installed beats having a smart meter any day.

 

[jon0844]

The danger is that 'flexibility' to offer discounts will very rapidly become a way to extract usurious rates for electricity at times when people cannot avoid using electricity.
For example kettle and toaster usage during the early morning, or oven usage during the evening.

The Option Tempo does allow you to sell discounted electricity like that, in fact it demonstrates the dominance of nuclear power in France in that their 'Economy 8' night style rate is beaten by Option Tempo's day-time rate for the majority of the year.

If it ain't at absolute peak usage, the electricity is cheap.

I think it's fair to say that in the future, technology will be used to improve things for us - and then, just like if they ever change rail ticketing, there will be losers.

The same is almost certainly going to happen with the Internet. It's fair to say that most people are now absolutely addicted to it and consider it as important as water and oxygen.

Most ISPs and mobile networks are seen as nothing more than dumb pipes, but going forward, all have a desire to change that. Mobile operators, like Three, are joining others with the idea of 'zero-rated data' on plans that have a data limit. Pay for less data, binge on data - as long as it's data 'approved' by a network. Maybe that service has to pay Three, or whoever, a bit to have data not throttled.

In the future, expect not to pay for Internet access but access to services akin to Sky TV. Want Netflix? Sure, as long as you take X, Y and Z too. Oh, and going even further forward, what about when an ISP decides that some 'content' simply isn't available.

Of course limiting access to sites, or perhaps limiting the number of users who can use a home broadband connection without an extra cost, won't be censorship. It will be simple business.

Nevertheless, smart meters are going to happen and there's nothing we can do to stop it. The fight will be in making sure these businesses are kept under control, and that means making sure Government plays its part.

That's the bit to worry about IMO. I bet there will be a lot of pressure/lobbying by companies in the years ahead, especially after Brexit, given that (for the Internet) the EU seems keen on retaining net neutrality. I am not so sure the UK will be, any more than it seems the US is.

 

[goblinuser]

I think it's fair to say that in the future, technology will be used to improve things for us - and then, just like if they ever change rail ticketing, there will be losers.

The same is almost certainly going to happen with the Internet. It's fair to say that most people are now absolutely addicted to it and consider it as important as water and oxygen.

Most ISPs and mobile networks are seen as nothing more than dumb pipes, but going forward, all have a desire to change that. Mobile operators, like Three, are joining others with the idea of 'zero-rated data' on plans that have a data limit. Pay for less data, binge on data - as long as it's data 'approved' by a network. Maybe that service has to pay Three, or whoever, a bit to have data not throttled.

In the future, expect not to pay for Internet access but access to services akin to Sky TV. Want Netflix? Sure, as long as you take X, Y and Z too. Oh, and going even further forward, what about when an ISP decides that some 'content' simply isn't available.

Of course limiting access to sites, or perhaps limiting the number of users who can use a home broadband connection without an extra cost, won't be censorship. It will be simple business.

Nevertheless, smart meters are going to happen and there's nothing we can do to stop it. The fight will be in making sure these businesses are kept under control, and that means making sure Government plays its part.

That's the bit to worry about IMO. I bet there will be a lot of pressure/lobbying by companies in the years ahead, especially after Brexit, given that (for the Internet) the EU seems keen on retaining net neutrality. I am not so sure the UK will be, any more than it seems the US is.

This sounds like a complete nightmare. I don't think consumers would allow it.

 

[jon0844]

I would hope not, but Virgin started with free Facebook and Twitter on its mobile service. Three has launched a new service. EE is doing Apple Music for six months, and Vodafone has three foreign networks doing packs.

I think it WILL happen because it starts with access to services for free, which nobody is going to be upset about.

Of course, fixed broadband is usually not with a data cap - but I still think we'll see changes so unlimited data stops being the norm, and people won't get upset because they can still watch iPlayer, YouTube, Amazon Prime, Netflix etc for free. It will however be the point where we inadvertently accept different levels of service. And then there's no going back.

Let's wait and see what happens.

(Frankly, it's more important to worry about than a smart meter IMHO!)

 

[najaB]

Which used published rates, on at published times which do not rapidly change.

This is very different from electricity prices that change unpredictably from one minute to the next.

I think what you're describing is the worst-case scenario. It's much more likely that prices will (a) have a pretty narrow band within which they can fluctuate, and (b) peak v off peak times will likely be very similar day-on-day since, en masse, people are creatures of habit. I expect that the charging periods would differ by minutes rather than hours if you compared similar days at similar times of the year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what you're describing is the worst-case scenario. It's much more likely that prices will (a) have a pretty narrow band within which they can fluctuate, and (b) peak v off peak times will likely be very similar day-on-day since, en masse, people are creatures of habit. I expect that the charging periods would differ by minutes rather than hours if you compared similar days at similar times of the year.

I could see it looking a bit like a version of the Advance fares structure, with several known levels. Even Sleasyjet and Ryanair fares work in fare buckets like that, you just don't see them.

 

[AM9]

I think what you're describing is the worst-case scenario. It's much more likely that prices will (a) have a pretty narrow band within which they can fluctuate, and (b) peak v off peak times will likely be very similar day-on-day since, en masse, people are creatures of habit. I expect that the charging periods would differ by minutes rather than hours if you compared similar days at similar times of the year.

And it wouldn't be that difficult for appliances to sense the charge band of the moment, maybe via the consumer's monitor, so that certain user-selected devices can be temporarily put into standby mode. Just imagine a freezer, or immersion heater being told to wait before the next thermostat cycle kicks in, - subject to the temperature not being too far below the set point. Domestic fridges and freezers I guess, have an average life of 10-15 years, so such a charging/shedding regime could be designed into the appliances and sold in volumes within 10 years. Another 'feature' for the manufacturers to sell us.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I know that Good Energy offer the services of Lowri Beck to make four-monthly readings of gas and electricity meters where disability and infirmity preclude the reading of such meters by affected occupants.

Do other energy suppliers do something similar to this?

We do it for customers every 3 months as we do quarterly billing. We always send out one of our own engineer's for either quarterly reads for vulnerable customers or every 6 months for customers that are not on our Priority Services Register.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

SMETS1 will become smart with all providers soon. It's being worked on. Also National Grid only fully own the NTS on the gas side now. The ex National Grid distribution networks are now run by Cadent. If you're in the industry, please keep up to date.

As you can tell I am also in the industry (specifically Gas distribution).


I'd also be checking SSE's social media policy! Be careful.

I'm not posting anything confidential or business sensitive. What's happening in the industry now is public if you just do a quick Google search.

 

[Butts]

When I lived in Falkirk I had a Smart Meter fitted by Scottish Gas free of charge.

I never had any problems and it was a relief not to have to take the meter readings every month/quarter.

Must admit I am missing it here in Wales :cry:

 

[HSTEd]

I think what you're describing is the worst-case scenario. It's much more likely that prices will (a) have a pretty narrow band within which they can fluctuate,

But that won't produce significant savings for the utility or what not, th ere is little to no reason for it to bother offering such a tarrif.
In order for people to pay attention the swings will have to reflect the swings in wholesale pricing.

and (b) peak v off peak times will likely be very similar day-on-day since, en masse, people are creatures of habit. I expect that the charging periods would differ by minutes rather than hours if you compared similar days at similar times of the year.

That assumes that the only variable is varying demand.
Varying production is a major thing now remember since we live in the glorious non-dispatchable future brought to us by wind turbines and solar panels.

So weather variations will allow pricing at the same time on adjacent days to be entirely different.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm not posting anything confidential or business sensitive. What's happening in the industry now is public if you just do a quick Google search.

I'm fully aware about what is going on in the industry and how public it is... I have been in gas distribution for a very long time now.

You might not be saying anything confidential, but I would still advise you are careful. Your company will be searching for instances of their name, they do look to see who posts. Anything that may bring their company into disrepute (commercially sensitive or not). By saying who you work for, you represent them.

 

[najaB]

But that won't produce significant savings for the utility or what not, th ere is little to no reason for it to bother offering such a tarrif.
In order for people to pay attention the swings will have to reflect the swings in wholesale pricing.

That all depends on the bands. If it's enough to chop the top off the demand peaks it can mean the difference between building a new CGT plant or not.

That assumes that the only variable is varying demand.
Varying production is a major thing now remember since we live in the glorious non-dispatchable future brought to us by wind turbines and solar panels.

So weather variations will allow pricing at the same time on adjacent days to be entirely different.

Again, climate (as opposed to weather) is relatively predictable. They may need to fire up a CGT plant on the days when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing but we'll be no worse off than we would have been otherwise.

 

[HSTEd]

That all depends on the bands. If it's enough to chop the top off the demand peaks it can mean the difference between building a new CGT plant or not.

For the couple of years before an increasing population and increasing electrification force its construction anyway
An awful lot of money to spend to defer capital investment for a couple of years.

Again, climate (as opposed to weather) is relatively predictable. They may need to fire up a CGT plant on the days when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing but we'll be no worse off than we would have been otherwise.

But climate is irrelevant, what matter is the weather.
And weather is not really predictable far enough in advance to matter.

It will just become a mechanism for operators to wring huge sums from consumers at peak time, and I can guarantee that electricity prices at off peak times will not drop as high as they rise at peak times. Especially as the industry has huge barriers to entry and often engages in practices that would embarass a cartel.

We are worse off, because the risk-sharing that makes a larger electricity grid better than a small one is effectively destroyed by the enabling of massively variable tarrifs.

 

[najaB]

For the couple of years before an increasing population and increasing electrification force its construction anyway
An awful lot of money to spend to defer capital investment for a couple of years.

You'd be surprised how much difference demand modification can make. What was Southern California Edison has managed to not build 12 power plants through simply getting people to change their behaviour.

https://blogs.oracle.com/utilities/california-cut-peak-demand

 

[HSTEd]

You'd be surprised how much difference demand modification can make. What was Southern California Edison has managed to not build 12 power plants through simply getting people to change their behaviour.

https://blogs.oracle.com/utilities/california-cut-peak-demand

Those are bloody tiny peaking power plants
That should really be a saving of twelve gas turbine sets. This is like when people refer to reactors interchangeably with 'nuclear power stations' - and it drives me crazy.
I just show them a picture of Bruce, Pickering or Kashiwazaki-Kariwa
And that is California - where they have huge daytime demand peaks from air conditining in summer.
620MWe is not that much in global terms really, I have proposals for single shaft peaking steam turbine systems with accumulators of that size in my PDF library.

 

[najaB]

Those are bloody tiny peaking power plants

Yes, which is what the CGT referred to above would be. Nuclear for base, renewables/CGT for peaking.

620MWe is not that much in global terms really, I have proposals for single shaft peaking steam turbine systems with accumulators of that size in my PDF library.

It's about the same as one of Drax's units. That's a sizable amount of carbon avoided through nothing more than getting people to think before they turn on a switch and buy energy efficient appliances.

 

[cjp]

My kettle and toaster rarely see use before 10am, but that's purely because of the hours that I work! I take your point to an extent, but I think we all need to think hard about how we use energy these days. It might seem a bit nanny-state and all that, but if the gadget in the cupboard under the stairs says that I could save the cost of a couple of pints by remembering to switch off the odd lightbulb, I'm all for it.

You either have powerful lamps or cheap beer.
{I have moved my house and garage over to LED'S }

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, which is what the CGT referred to above would be. Nuclear for base, renewables/CGT for peaking.
It's about the same as one of Drax's units.

Unfortunately my frame for reference has been distorted by nuclear, where 500+MWe is now a small unit.

EDIT:

Didn't read the article close enough - interesting that they can achieve that effect without any financial incentive.
Perhaps there is hope for humanity yet.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Because the long-term plot is to have variable rates, particularly for electricity. If you want to use power in winter early evenings in washing machines, tumble dryers and dare I say it, charging electric cars, you'll pay more as it is when demand is at its highest. Set those things to run overnight, then it will be charged at a lower rate. Think economy seven on steroids.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

In some ways, from the point of view of the consumer, it arguably is a bad thing.

Right now, if I need something done that uses electricity, I just do it - I don't worry about when. It's nice and simple. But if charges become variable, the inevitable consequence is that people will start thinking things like "Hang on, do I need to cook my dinner now? Is electricity expensive at the moment? Will it be cheaper if I eat a couple of hours later?" That's going to make using electricity more complicated and more stressful. I can't see it having a good impact on people's lives.

I appreciate there are reasons why it would be desirable to balance the load at the electricity supply end, but it doesn't look so good at the consumer end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the generally low price of electricity I very much doubt people will think like that other than for very high cost things like fully charging an electric vehicle. But if they have time but low funds (you tend to have one but not both) then it is a further opportunity to save, no bad thing at all really.

 

[HSTEd]

Given the generally low price of electricity I very much doubt people will think like that other than for very high cost things like fully charging an electric vehicle. But if they have time but low funds (you tend to have one but not both) then it is a further opportunity to save, no bad thing at all really.

The problem is that this dilutes the risk-sharing inherent in the electricity generation system.
It's essentially a zero sum game - people with time (normally the old) will be able to transfer more of the cost of the electricity system onto people without time (normally the young), no matter their actual relative financial positions. The Working Poor cannot alter their electricity use behaviour to save money, they have to cook when they do and they have to use the kettle when they do because varying it will take away precious sleep time or make them late for work.

This problem has to be weighed against the benefits of variable charging in grid terms - and I think Economy 7/Option Tempo is about as far as I am willing to go.

 

[Johnny_w]

As someone who works for the energy regulator, this is interesting - if depressing - reading.

As someone who designs the electricity network; this is hilarious reading.

From what I've seen it will allow dynamic billing and the consumer the ability to choose. As someone said earlier if you want to use
heating in the evening during winter that is likely to be a high charge than an overnight use.

Economy7 on steroids seems about right to me

 

[AM9]

The problem is that this dilutes the risk-sharing inherent in the electricity generation system.
It's essentially a zero sum game - people with time (normally the old) will be able to transfer more of the cost of the electricity system onto people without time (normally the young), no matter their actual relative financial positions. The Working Poor cannot alter their electricity use behaviour to save money, they have to cook when they do and they have to use the kettle when they do because varying it will take away precious sleep time or make them late for work.

When averaged out over a week or month, cooking isn't as big an issue for most as it would seem just by looking at the maximum power draw of the appliances used. OK, an oven may have 2-3kW element, but they are not running continuously when cooking, nor would electric hobs be running flat out, and a kettle, (say 2.2kW) rarely goes for more than 4 minutes even when nearly full. So the absolute power used when cooking is a bit of a hot potato (pun intended).
Energy users have been receiving advice for decades about simple changes of habit that can make significant savings in energy costs. Things like only filling the kettle with as much water as is required, or cooking certain foods in larger batches and serviing cold on other days or reheating (from frozen). As the cost of energy rises even more, maybe some of that advice will be heeded by those who need to.

This problem has to be weighed against the benefits of variable charging in grid terms - and I think Economy 7/Option Tempo is about as far as I am willing to go.

Well, your, (and everybody's) willingness may not be relevant, - unless you choose a tariff of 'anytime' demand which would be much a more expensive option.

 

[Howardh]

I already have refused a smart meter.

 

[Howardh]

Getting away from smart meter but FWIW my electricity company pays me interest on any credit balance they hold - which is not a lot.

If that's OVO it's now increased to 5% - which is 4% better than the best annual bank interest rates!

 

[HSTEd]

From what I've seen it will allow dynamic billing and the consumer the ability to choose.

Yay, yet more essentially meaningless choices that require information that the average consumer can't possibly have!
Or which have little to no effet on the result because everyone always makes predictable choices.

The fact is customers don't care about electricity supply, they want it to be available when they turn something on and want a low bill.
They haev neither the time or the information to make a proper analysis of the minutiae of various tarrifs.

The most succesful model for the electricity industry (certainly in terms of encouraging demand growth) in the UK's history is the state ownership model.
It is simple, everyone understands it and though it might not give the absolute cheapest results, it comes close enough and without the wild variations the current model generates.

When averaged out over a week or month, cooking isn't as big an issue for most as it would seem just by looking at the maximum power draw of the appliances used. OK, an oven may have 2-3kW element, but they are not running continuously when cooking, nor would electric hobs be running flat out, and a kettle, (say 2.2kW) rarely goes for more than 4 minutes even when nearly full. So the absolute power used when cooking is a bit of a hot potato (pun intended).

That is right up until a wind lull forces the price of electricity under a dynamic pricing scheme up to 50-60p/kWh, or even higher. 4 minutes at 3kW is 0.2kWh, which means at peak times we could be looking at 12+p to boil a kettle.
During demand spikes and production lulls wholesale electricity prices have exceeded (for a short period, but still) several thousand pounds per megawatt-hour.

 

[najaB]

The most succesful model for the electricity industry (certainly in terms of encouraging demand growth) in the UK's history is the state ownership model.

People's energy usage patterns aren't driven by who owns the supply network. The issues of peak v average demand would still exist, as would the benefits accrued by peak reduction.