Scotrail, Abellio and April

[PaulMc7]

And how many of those are services which call at every station along the way and takes ages?

Hardly anybody wanting Glasgow from Edinburgh will willingly board the Shotts or Bathgate line stoppers unless they somehow wanted to travel the scenic route

I don't get the train that often but when I do it's the Edinburgh train via Bathgate I use and it's very busy every single time. Services will only increase if they continue to be used even more as we rebound from Covid. I'm not exactly pro SNP but they won't just put trains on because enthusiasts want them

 

[InOban]

AIUI, Scotrail trains is a standalone company which happens to be wholly owned by the ScoGov. As is Scottish Water, for example.

 

[PG]

AIUI, Scotrail trains is a standalone company which happens to be wholly owned by the ScoGov. As is Scottish Water, for example.

Do you think that the media are going to see it that way though?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

OK this data is for last qtr but its latest data from ORR here but its rather telling for ScotRail for reasons I don't get given how much effort Scotland has gone to improve its public transport offering.



Yet it still is operating a high level of pre-covid services

 

[Ginaro]

On the back of the nationalisation news I've seen some council election candidates talking about cheaper fares, station upgrades (step-free access), decarbonisation, and not diverting money to shareholders in the Netherlands.

So I'm wondering - how much profit actually went to Abellio? Because from the news reports it seems apart from maybe one good year early on, they failed to make a profit with the franchise each year.

Did Transport Scotland not already have the ability to control rises to a lot of fares?

Station upgrades and decarbonisation will surely rely on money being available to fund Network Rail and to buy new trains - which is something that could've happened under Abellio anyway if the Scottish Government wanted to fund it?

 

[permarquis]

OK this data is for last qtr but its latest data from ORR here but its rather telling for ScotRail for reasons I don't get given how much effort Scotland has gone to improve its public transport offering.

I suspect it's less about the transport offering, and much more about the difference in tone when it comes to COVID-19. England has moved much quicker to a sense of business as usual (no value judgement implied).

 

[patrick.hearn3]

So I'm wondering - how much profit actually went to Abellio? Because from the news reports it seems apart from maybe one good year early on, they failed to make a profit with the franchise each year.

With no information at all on Abellio and ScotRail, some multi-nationals transfer money across the group by means other than dividends. I have worked mainly for UK subsidiaries of US companies. We paid licence fees (use of name and logo) and allocations - costs for group provided worldwide services (head office staff and board, some IT). Starbucks had sales of £328m and pre-tax profits of £13m - but paid its overseas parent £26m in royalties and £78m administrative expenses

 

[Ex-controller]

OK this data is for last qtr but its latest data from ORR here but its rather telling for ScotRail for reasons I don't get given how much effort Scotland has gone to improve its public transport offering.

View attachment 112464

Yet it still is operating a high level of pre-covid services

View attachment 112465

As another post referred to above, there has been a significant difference in tone/message up here around office based work over the pandemic. Even now Scotland still has covid restrictions which are being extended on a weekly basis.

The presumption in favour of online work, meetings etc is continuing and is also now being applied in connection with climate change. Even Transport Scotland say that people should have online meetings as a first option. However, counter to this, is that there has been a noticeable modal shift even further towards car usage here which looks like being difficult to reverse without imaginative policies.

 

[takno]

As another post referred to above, there has been a significant difference in tone/message up here around office based work over the pandemic. Even now Scotland still has covid restrictions which are being extended on a weekly basis.

The presumption in favour of online work, meetings etc is continuing and is also now being applied in connection with climate change. Even Transport Scotland say that people should have online meetings as a first option. However, counter to this, is that there has been a noticeable modal shift even further towards car usage here which looks like being difficult to reverse without imaginative policies.

We've got people coming into the office. That's not back into the office - we only started the company at the start of the pandemic. From previous experience with companies of this type, absolutely everybody would be coming into the central Edinburgh office by train. Given that we only have a couple of parking spaces, and Edinburgh isn't exactly set up for commuter traffic, it's pretty important that they do.

Due to the dreadful Scotrail service at the moment virtually all of them are driving however. At best they are car-pooling or using the park and rides, in addition to limiting their attendance at the office to lower than we would really like.

This is the time when habits will be set - once they are commuting by car they won't return to rail even if the service gets back to normal. Unless Scotrail act now then central belt commuting is going to be lost for years. Sure, that will partly manifest in more homeworking by people who want to home-work, but it will also manifest in lower productivity and happiness from people who do want/need to be in the office, and worse traffic.

I think nationalisation can and should be the most effective way to run a railway, but nobody in the SNP, the Green Party or Transport Scotland gives any sense of being able to competently set a direction for Scotland, let alone manage the day-to-day.

 

[ejstubbs]

Meanwhile, in Scotland on Sunday:

Newly-nationalised ScotRail is failing to show passengers the cheapest fares for some journeys on its website, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.

The train operator, which was taken over by the Scottish Government on Friday, only displays the price of single tickets for one-way journeys, even when buying a return would be cheaper.

This is despite Britain’s official National Rail Enquiries (NRE) website showing passengers return fares if they are cheaper than singles for one-way trips.

Would I be right in thinking that the ScotRail web site is unchanged since TS took control of ScotRail? (I note that the ScotRail Android app hasn't been updated since December.) So the newly-nationalised status of the TOC is a bit of a smelly red herring.

(FWIW I've definitely found ticketing anomalies between NRE and different TOCs' web sites in the past. ISTR that I even posted a query about one of them on here, back in the day.)

 

[Goldfish62]

With no information at all on Abellio and ScotRail, some multi-nationals transfer money across the group by means other than dividends.

On the contrary, you can view the full set of Abellio Scotrail's annual accounts at the Companies House website.

I would post a link but the website is currently down. However Abellio Scotrail has making a thumping great loss each year, as has Abellio Greater Anglia, which is being propped up by the Dutch taxpayer. However, let's not let the facts get in the way of the narrative that Dutch shareholders are receiving huge dividends at the expense of our railways.

 

[Deltic1961]

Problem is that Scotrail are seen as expensive by the general public and reducing fares would help, but in doing that the business would probably lose money that tax payers would have to top up.

I have lived in the same place for 20 years and the train used to be far cheaper than the bus for a single journey in to Aberdeen. Now it's more expensive. Also the fare goes up by a minimum of 10p each year. Commuter fares should be cheaper to encourage frequent use. I'm £3.90 for a return journey (6 miles and 8 minutes each way) so not sure how that compares to others.

I'm hoping this new quango, company, arms length organisation whatever will carry out a root and branch review of the way Scotrail operate their services but I doubt it. The response to Transport Scotland tweeting about the changes has been less than favourable too so they've got a lot of work to do to get fare paying passengers back on board.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One would think that reinstating at least some, if not all, of the withdrawn services would be an excellent way for the Scottish Government to show the benefits of nationalising Scotrail ? Being cynical, maybe that was the plan all along. Or perhaps they are discovering that running a train service yourself is somewhat different from criticising those that do, or rather, did.

The timetable run by Abellio, and its reduced services, was specified in any case by Transport Scotland.
Why would you expect anything to change now they have direct control?

 

[ejstubbs]

The presumption in favour of online work, meetings etc is continuing and is also now being applied in connection with climate change. Even Transport Scotland say that people should have online meetings as a first option. However, counter to this, is that there has been a noticeable modal shift even further towards car usage here which looks like being difficult to reverse without imaginative policies.

It was very noticeable when the workplace restrictions started to ease that car usage shot up: the Edinburgh City Bypass had been eerily quiet during the first lockdown but was clearly on its way back to normal in early summer 2020, and didn't seem to return to its ghostly state during lockdown 2 at all.

I think there was a widespread avoidance of public transport, both trains and buses, as restrictions on movement eased but things like face coverings and social distancing were still mandatory, giving the (possibly misleading) impression that public transport was a high-risk option. Yes, the continuing limited timetables would also have contributed but I believe that fear of transmission was as significant, if not more so, in keeping folks away from buses & trains.

It was also very noticeable the increased numbers of learner drivers about on the roads last year. Part of that was probably due to a backlog of demand that had built up during the lockdowns, but again I suspect that wanting to avoid public transport due to perceived transmission risks was another factor (in fact ISTR reading an article in which members of the public were quoted as saying precisely that).

 

[Falcon1200]

The timetable run by Abellio, and its reduced services, was specified in any case by Transport Scotland.
Why would you expect anything to change now they have direct control?

Political advantage.

 

[PaulMc7]

Political advantage.

They have a political advantage over everyone else just by existing because of how bad every other party in Scotland is and I'm not a fan of the SNP. Pro independence but not a fan of them anymore.

Back to the trains though and for me the key will be prices and not service increases. They'll come if warranted IMO. The train has always been painfully expensive compared to the bus for me and ultimately in a time where the cost of living is rising fast this will play a bigger part than ever in how people travel.

 

[Deltic1961]

The SNP are full of mixed messages. If you follow Transport Scotland on Twitter its all about the green agenda. The LEZ coming in next year will make it more difficult for many to get to the city centre and that's on top of the already existing covid restrictions.

To get people out of cars and on to public transport there has to be a vast improvement in both train availability and fares. Simply forcing car users off the road won't work.

 

[Davester50]

Political advantage.

Very much so.
It seems to me that there was a dash to get Abellio to do a lot of dirty work on their time, so only good news came from TS Rail, despite TS pulling the strings all the time.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

The SNP are full of mixed messages. If you follow Transport Scotland on Twitter its all about the green agenda. The LEZ coming in next year will make it more difficult for many to get to the city centre and that's on top of the already existing covid restrictions.

To get people out of cars and on to public transport there has to be a vast improvement in both train availability and fares. Simply forcing car users off the road won't work.

Exactly. Don’t know why Edinburgh isn’t like Glasgow in using trains to get around. Taking the train from Slateford, Wester Hailes or Curriehill is a lot quicker to town than the bus. Same with South Gyle, Newcraighall and Brunstane. Should be trying to get people onto these services but they need to be improved. South Gyle used to have 4tph through the day before Edinburgh Gateway opened.

Yeah Lothian Buses are good, but they’re too slow once they reach town especially Princes Street where there are too many buses for the small stretch of road.

 

[Deltic1961]

Well the 20mph speed limit doesn't help either. I took the bus from Leith to Hyvot's Bank last time I went down and it took literally forever.

Same in Aberdeen from where I live, 8 minutes by train and 40 (peak) to 50 minutes (off peak) by bus for the same 6 mile journey.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

And how many of those are services which call at every station along the way and takes ages?

Hardly anybody wanting Glasgow from Edinburgh will willingly board the Shotts or Bathgate line stoppers unless they somehow wanted to travel the scenic route

97 trains are direct
Quickest train is 47 mins the average is 1hr 14 mins
If there is any improvement need on train services then it should be in city local services such as Glasgow - paisley canal , the long Edinburgh stoppers to Glasgow and beyond
Possible through the night services between Glasgow - Edinburgh , Glasgow - Aberdeen , Glasgow - paisley such as 1 train every 90 mins

 

[John Bishop]

Problem is that Scotrail are seen as expensive by the general public and reducing fares would help, but in doing that the business would probably lose money that tax payers would have to top up.

I have lived in the same place for 20 years and the train used to be far cheaper than the bus for a single journey in to Aberdeen. Now it's more expensive. Also the fare goes up by a minimum of 10p each year. Commuter fares should be cheaper to encourage frequent use. I'm £3.90 for a return journey (6 miles and 8 minutes each way) so not sure how that compares to others.

I'm hoping this new quango, company, arms length organisation whatever will carry out a root and branch review of the way Scotrail operate their services but I doubt it. The response to Transport Scotland tweeting about the changes has been less than favourable too so they've got a lot of work to do to get fare paying passengers back on board.

I’m assuming you live in Dyce? Less than £2 each way from Dyce to Aberdeen is very cheap I would say. You couldn’t drive it for anywhere near that price and with the bus taking 40-50 minutes, most people wouldn’t mind paying more for the time convenience.

 

[Deltic1961]

I did work it out just the other week, and even with my Civic Type R doing 30mpg it's far cheaper to take the car worked out on the cost of petrol alone (not all the other costs associated of course).

The £3.90 return is fine on my own, but when the 3 of us go out it's simply cheaper to take the car and that's the issue. Train is OK for one person but with a family it gets pretty expensive, especially for inter-city travel.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

On the contrary, you can view the full set of Abellio Scotrail's annual accounts at the Companies House website.

I would post a link but the website is currently down. However Abellio Scotrail has making a thumping great loss each year, as has Abellio Greater Anglia, which is being propped up by the Dutch taxpayer. However, let's not let the facts get in the way of the narrative that Dutch shareholders are receiving huge dividends at the expense of our railways.

Apologies - that wasn't what I meant (or said, to be fair). I was too lazy to look up the accounts and was making the accounting point that parent companies can extract money without it going through as profit

I guess the true value will be how much of the parent guarantee did they burn through?

 

[Goldfish62]

Apologies - that wasn't what I meant (or said, to be fair). I was too lazy to look up the accounts and was making the accounting point that parent companies can extract money without it going through as profit

I guess the true value will be how much of the parent guarantee did they burn through?

Yes, very good point. All-in-all though I think it can still be concluded that ScotRail and Greater Anglia were very poor investments for Abellio.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yes, very good point. All-in-all though I think it can still be concluded that ScotRail and Greater Anglia were very poor investments for Abellio.

Definitely. The Scottish Government will now have to ‘spend’ more just to get the same product, let alone improve things by restoring frequency and so on.

 

[Ex-controller]

97 trains are direct
Quickest train is 47 mins the average is 1hr 14 mins
If there is any improvement need on train services then it should be in city local services such as Glasgow - paisley canal , the long Edinburgh stoppers to Glasgow and beyond
Possible through the night services between Glasgow - Edinburgh , Glasgow - Aberdeen , Glasgow - paisley such as 1 train every 90 mins

You couldn’t reliably provide a night service between Glasgow and Paisley as that time is needed for on track maintenance work (Same reason as why the subway closes at 6pm on a Sunday). Glasgow/Edinburgh might be possible given there’s a number of possible routes but even then, there’s minimal demand at those times compared to day time, even off peak. Restoring previous frequencies during these times would be a better use of resources.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Definitely. The Scottish Government will now have to ‘spend’ more just to get the same product, let alone improve things by restoring frequency and so on.

I've often wondered whether, having had the franchise pulled without an extension in an acrimonious atmosphere, Abellio might have settled the protracted disputes by "conceding" in order to throw the Scottish Government a "Hospital pass" for when thay take over.
I would have thought about it if there was a big loss this year anyway.

Maybe apprehensive about setting a precedent that might be expected to be followed at Greater Anglia and any future franchises they might hope for? Perhaps there's more to it than just salvaging some dividend for shareholders this year?

 

[Watershed]

I've often wondered whether, having had the franchise pulled without an extension in an acrimonious atmosphere, Abellio might have settled the protracted disputes by "conceding" in order to throw the Scottish Government a "Hospital pass" for when thay take over.
I would have thought about it if there was a big loss this year anyway.

Maybe apprehensive about setting a precedent that might be expected to be followed at Greater Anglia and any future franchises they might hope for? Perhaps there's more to it than just salvaging some dividend for shareholders this year?

Abellio were just doing ScotGov's bidding, no more no less. None of the TOCs have had any real decision-making authority since the pandemic started.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

You couldn’t reliably provide a night service between Glasgow and Paisley as that time is needed for on track maintenance work (Same reason as why the subway closes at 6pm on a Sunday). Glasgow/Edinburgh might be possible given there’s a number of possible routes but even then, there’s minimal demand at those times compared to day time, even off peak. Restoring previous frequencies during these times would be a better use of resources.

There is definitely a demand for inter city overnight services this is proven by the 900 operating 24/7
Bear in mind the paisley link could be provided via paisley canal or paisley Gilmore street depending on maintenance needs. And if you take in to consideration the major shortage of taxi drivers and bus drivers in places like Glasgow it could be a boom to run through the night services at the week end and charge a slightly higher fare