ScotRail: actions such as skip stopping during disruption

[47271]

Fine enough, but considering that Scotland on Sunday managed to turn 20 skip stopping trains per day into their main front page story today then I don't rate Scotrail's chances of this not getting deliberately misconstrued and blown out of proportion.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ns-a-day-skip-their-scheduled-stops-1-4674632

 

[najaB]

Fine enough, but considering that Scotland on Sunday managed to turn 20 skip stopping trains per day into their main front page story today then I don't rate Scotrail's chances of this not getting deliberately misconstrued and blown out of proportion.

That's kinda the point - if you're going to get slated is might as well be for the facts than for spin. It rather takes the wind out of your attacker's sails.

 

[385001]

That's kinda the point - if you're going to get slated is might as well be for the facts than for spin. It rather takes the wind out of your attacker's sails.

Spot on.

 

[47271]

That's kinda the point - if you're going to get slated is might as well be for the facts than for spin. It rather takes the wind out of your attacker's sails.

Oh I get it, all I'm saying is that noone should expect a markedly better outcome!

 

[DuncanS]

Fine enough, but considering that Scotland on Sunday managed to turn 20 skip stopping trains per day into their main front page story today then I don't rate Scotrail's chances of this not getting deliberately misconstrued and blown out of proportion.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ns-a-day-skip-their-scheduled-stops-1-4674632

If your train is skipping the stations as happened twice on the train I was on last week then it IS a major story - station skipping shouldn't be happening.

 

[Altnabreac]

If your train is skipping the stations as happened twice on the train I was on last week then it IS a major story - station skipping shouldn't be happening.

It would be very easy to write the franchise agreement in a way which bans station skipping.

The train operator would then have to respond in one or more of several ways:

1. Terminate trains short instead of skip stopping
2. Cancel trains instead of skip stopping
3. Increase turn around times to reduce need for skip stopping
4. Reduce stock/crew utilisation to allow more "spare" stock and crew at termini to reduce need for skip stopping

The problem is that options 1 and 2 are actually worse for passengers than skip stopping (which is why the operator currently does skip stopping) while options 3 and 4 would cost extra money to the government in subsidy (so we need to have a conversation about how bad skip stopping is and what we are willing to pay to have it not happen).

Investment in more redoubling, infrastructure reliability etc can all help reduce the requirement for skip stopping as well but ultimately once services are delayed and out of position the only options to get back to normal service are skip stopping or cancellations. Making skip stopping the political flavour of the day is just going to lead to Scotrail having to cancel more services instead.

 

[mcmad]

Whether options 1 and 2 are are worse or better entirely depends on which part you are travelling on. Take a (not entirely) hypothetical Glasgow to Alloa service. If running late you can (a) skip stop to Stirling, annoying the passengers at Bishopbriggs, Lenzie, Croy and Larbert. or (b) terminate early at Stirling and annoy the passengers for Alloa or (c) cancel another service annoying the passengers travelling there. Options 3 and 4 will cost more for the TOC but not annoy any of the passengers who ultimately pay (a proportion of) the cost of the service as you say. There is of course another potential option, reduce the units on another train to free up a unit although that depends on having spare staff to cover.

 

[Altnabreac]

Whether options 1 and 2 are are worse or better entirely depends on which part you are travelling on. Take a (not entirely) hypothetical Glasgow to Alloa service. If running late you can (a) skip stop to Stirling, annoying the passengers at Bishopbriggs, Lenzie, Croy and Larbert. or (b) terminate early at Stirling and annoy the passengers for Alloa or (c) cancel another service annoying the passengers travelling there. Options 3 and 4 will cost more for the TOC but not annoy any of the passengers who ultimately pay (a proportion of) the cost of the service as you say. There is of course another potential option, reduce the units on another train to free up a unit although that depends on having spare staff to cover.

Options 3 and 4 won't cost more for the TOC if specified in a Franchise agreement. They will cost more for the taxpayer and potentially cost more for the Farepayer (if the Franchise agreement passes on more of the cost). The question is how much of 3 and 4 is it worth paying for (as you can never insulate against all cancellations). Needs a more mature discussion than is currently happening in the Scotsman.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Needs a more mature discussion than is currently happening in the Scotsman.

Amen to that !

 

[47271]

At the risk of repeating myself, what's the big thing about skip stopping all of a sudden?

In the days of First Scotrail I used to commute between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Sometimes disruption meant that we ran fast between Haymarket and Queen Street, which I should point out was a bonus for me. I daresay that some people were inconvenienced, but I understood that if they hadn't accelerated a handful of services then it was very likely that my train home again would be cancelled due to a lack of available stock. It wasn't in the papers and there's absolutely nothing new about it Mr Dalton.

A few years later minor operational decisions on the railway leading to people being late for their yoga are now major front page news. Meanwhile the police service and NHS are in crisis, education standards are slipping, the roads are full of potholes and the bins aren't getting emptied. But obviously a train missing out Dalgety Bay on a Monday afternoon is far more important than that.

 

[deltic08]

At the risk of repeating myself, what's the big thing about skip stopping all of a sudden?

In the days of First Scotrail I used to commute between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Sometimes disruption meant that we ran fast between Haymarket and Queen Street, which I should point out was a bonus for me. I daresay that some people were inconvenienced, but I understood that if they hadn't accelerated a handful of services then it was very likely that my train home again would be cancelled due to a lack of available stock. It wasn't in the papers and there's absolutely nothing new about it Mr Dalton.

A few years later minor operational decisions on the railway leading to people being late for their yoga are now major front page news. Meanwhile the police service and NHS are in crisis, education standards are slipping, the roads are full of potholes and the bins aren't getting emptied. But obviously a train missing out Dalgety Bay on a Monday afternoon is far more important than that.

If a TOC isn't going to stick to a published timetable then why have timetables. We want a reliable, dependable service not a cheeseparing one. The TOC should be heavily fined for not stopping as all they are doing is avoiding a penalty for arriving late at a terminating station. This is a very good example of why railways should be renationalised.

 

[Carntyne]

If a TOC isn't going to stick to a published timetable then why have timetables. We want a reliable, dependable service not a cheeseparing one. The TOC should be heavily fined for not stopping as all they are doing is avoiding a penalty for arriving late at a terminating station. This is a very good example of why railways should be renationalised.

So nationalised railways immune from delays and would not implement any service recovery in the event of disruption? This is nonsense, anything that runs express fails PPM anyway!

 

[DuncanS]

A few years later minor operational decisions on the railway leading to people being late for their yoga are now major front page news. Meanwhile the police service and NHS are in crisis, education standards are slipping, the roads are full of potholes and the bins aren't getting emptied. But obviously a train missing out Dalgety Bay on a Monday afternoon is far more important than that.

The issue is - we don't get the service we pay for whilst in your example the people on the Edinburgh/Glasgow cash cow who are going end to end get preferential treatment. It must be costing them a lot in reputational damage and delay repay.

And back on topic - looks like they have finished the wiring at Camelon, new structures on the platform and an additional panel added to the footbridge to make the height of the walkway sides higher. That means I now have to stand at the top of the stairs to be able to see if my train is coming.

 

[deltic08]

So nationalised railways immune from delays and would not implement any service recovery in the event of disruption? This is nonsense, anything that runs express fails PPM anyway!

Not to this extent. You should be ashamed for supporting such bad practise purely for financial gain.

 

[edwin_m]

Skip-stopping allows the service to recover time so the people on its next journey don't suffer similar delays and it is less likely to cause knock-on delays to other trains. If the delay is long enough that the next stopping service is just behind then it's often reasonable to skip some of the less-used stations and ask people to or from those stations to wait a few minutes for a train that's probably going to be less crowded as well.

 

[mcmad]

But when its being used on services running less than 10 minutes late then it indicates a wider problem

 

[IanXC]

But when its being used on services running less than 10 minutes late then it indicates a wider problem

There will be plenty of situations where taking such action in light of such delays is the right thing to do, for instance if the service is particularly intensive you need to look at other incidents to see how delay spirals on the particular bit of the network you're looking at.

 

[edwin_m]

But when its being used on services running less than 10 minutes late then it indicates a wider problem

If your service runs every 15min (like the E&G) then 10min delay would probably be delaying the train behind. If turnarounds are also short then it could delay the return journey. Longer turnarounds are possible but would need more platforms as well as more trains.

 

[Highlandspring]

Edit - actually on reflection I don't think it's a good idea for me to post on this thread since there's a risk that comments I make could end up printed in the Scotsman by a lazy 'Transport Correspondent' so I'm out

 

[deltic08]

Skip-stopping allows the service to recover time so the people on its next journey don't suffer similar delays and it is less likely to cause knock-on delays to other trains. If the delay is long enough that the next stopping service is just behind then it's often reasonable to skip some of the less-used stations and ask people to or from those stations to wait a few minutes for a train that's probably going to be less crowded as well.

Still not good enough. What about those passengers carried past their stop? They have no idea what is happening or when or how they will reach their destination. What if they are being met? What if a child or young female? What if late at night and missed bus connection? This practice should be discouraged by financial penalties. The service is for the use of passengers not for the convenience of the operator avoiding penalties.

 

[najaB]

This practice should be discouraged by financial penalties.

It is. Skipped stops count as a failures.

 

[gsnedders]

Still not good enough. What about those passengers carried past their stop? They have no idea what is happening or when or how they will reach their destination. What if they are being met? What if a child or young female? What if late at night and missed bus connection? This practice should be discouraged by financial penalties. The service is for the use of passengers not for the convenience of the operator avoiding penalties.

What about the person who misses their job interview because the train that operated that service is still running late, several services later, three hours later?

 

[Stopper]

Skip-stopping allows the service to recover time so the people on its next journey don't suffer similar delays and it is less likely to cause knock-on delays to other trains. If the delay is long enough that the next stopping service is just behind then it's often reasonable to skip some of the less-used stations and ask people to or from those stations to wait a few minutes for a train that's probably going to be less crowded as well.

“Less-used stations” ??

ScotRail regularly miss out fairly well used stations. I don’t think it matter how well used they are.

 

[DuncanS]

Dunblane, BoA, Polmont, Linlithgow and Edinburgh Park seem to be routinely skipped, with services in that direction being 2tph then a skipped stop isn't a case of a "few minutes" its delay repay territory.

 

[Carntyne]

Still not good enough. What about those passengers carried past their stop? They have no idea what is happening or when or how they will reach their destination. What if they are being met? What if a child or young female? What if late at night and missed bus connection? This practice should be discouraged by financial penalties. The service is for the use of passengers not for the convenience of the operator avoiding penalties.

There's staff or the info points available to help those 'stranded'.

 

[Highlandspring]

Edit - actually on reflection I don't think it's a good idea for me to post on this thread since there's a risk that comments I make could end up printed in the Scotsman by a lazy 'Transport Correspondent' so I'm out

 

[Class 170101]

It would be very easy to write the franchise agreement in a way which bans station skipping.

The train operator would then have to respond in one or more of several ways:

1. Terminate trains short instead of skip stopping
2. Cancel trains instead of skip stopping
3. Increase turn around times to reduce need for skip stopping
4. Reduce stock/crew utilisation to allow more "spare" stock and crew at termini to reduce need for skip stopping

The problem is that options 1 and 2 are actually worse for passengers than skip stopping (which is why the operator currently does skip stopping) while options 3 and 4 would cost extra money to the government in subsidy (so we need to have a conversation about how bad skip stopping is and what we are willing to pay to have it not happen).

Investment in more redoubling, infrastructure reliability etc can all help reduce the requirement for skip stopping as well but ultimately once services are delayed and out of position the only options to get back to normal service are skip stopping or cancellations. Making skip stopping the political flavour of the day is just going to lead to Scotrail having to cancel more services instead.

Option 5 cancel the booked train and put in a revised schedule ommitting certain stops. I would love to know how you would write that into a contract.

 

[edwin_m]

Still not good enough. What about those passengers carried past their stop? They have no idea what is happening or when or how they will reach their destination. What if they are being met? What if a child or young female? What if late at night and missed bus connection? This practice should be discouraged by financial penalties. The service is for the use of passengers not for the convenience of the operator avoiding penalties.

I would say it should only be done if the skipped stops are announced in time for passengers to alight from the train at a station where can join a following train serving the missed stops without an excessive wait.

 

[deltic08]

There's staff or the info points available to help those 'stranded'.

Well that's alright then. As long as there are staff it doesn't matter if passengers are inconvenienced by being carried over against their will.

 

[deltic08]

What about the person who misses their job interview because the train that operated that service is still running late, several services later, three hours later?

What if your interview was at the place that was skipped?