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ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

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jagardner1984

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Further changes to scheduled services for this coming Sunday (28th July)
I imagine as this persists into the festival / peak tourist season- having an hourly service on both the Falkirk and Bathgate routes with 4 minutes between them, and nothing for the intervening 56 minutes, will lead to some very interestingly loaded trains.

Bonkers.
 

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Iamanoob

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Had this email the other day.

"Further to my last update of 17th July 2024, I can now confirm that officials from the Department for Transport (DfT) have been in touch and a meeting to discuss a pay proposal is being arranged for early next week.



This meeting will be directly between National RMT Officers and Senior DfT Officials and will not involve the Rail Delivery Group. The RDG will no longer have any remit or involvement to deal with discussions on your pay and conditions still outstanding from the recent dispute, nor going forward."

What does it mean exactly that RDG is not involved in talks, is that better or worse for staff of Scotrail?
 

Mikw

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I'm making several trips between Glasgow and Helensborough Sunday-Wednesday - how likely is disruption to these?
 

hexagon789

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I'm making several trips between Glasgow and Helensborough Sunday-Wednesday - how likely is disruption to these?
Well, you know Sundays are down to a basic hourly service for a start? So any cancellations come out of that not the usual half-hourly one that was previously offered.
 

Sirius

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Depends what times. On weekdays there's nothing before 7am from Queen Street out (in the usual timetable, there is a 6am roughly) but it's half hourly until 8pm and drops to hourly. In the usual timetable it remains half hourly in the evenings. Going into Glasgow there is a 6am, and it seems to go hourly from 7pm.

Sundays it's hourly instead of half hourly.

The services on the short notice timetable seem (subject to separate disruption) to go to timetable from what I've seen (living near the Helensburgh Central to Edinburgh route).
 

alastair

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What they are doing at the moment is beyond a farce on the West Highland line, seriously inconveniencing a member of my family. People are told to "check journey planners" - yesterday both the 0744 and the 1140 Fort William/Glasgow today were shown as cancelled on ticket websites and on the Scotrail "check your journey" part of their website. Cue anyone wanting to get out of FW to book a Citylink bus ticket (and this on presumably one of the busiest days of the year). This morning, surprise surprise, both services are running normally.
Can anyone explain this, it is just insane? The bus company must think Christmas has come early!
 

Mikw

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Well, you know Sundays are down to a basic hourly service for a start? So any cancellations come out of that not the usual half-hourly one that was previously offered.
Thanks, my first trip from Helensburgh to Glasgow is likely to be early Sunday evening, so fingers crossed no cancellations

Depends what times. On weekdays there's nothing before 7am from Queen Street out (in the usual timetable, there is a 6am roughly) but it's half hourly until 8pm and drops to hourly. In the usual timetable it remains half hourly in the evenings. Going into Glasgow there is a 6am, and it seems to go hourly from 7pm.

Sundays it's hourly instead of half hourly.

The services on the short notice timetable seem (subject to separate disruption) to go to timetable from what I've seen (living near the Helensburgh Central to Edinburgh route).
Hope there's no problems, i can live with the temporary timetable, but one of the trips is for a funeral on Monday morning so can't be doing with any cancellations.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks, my first trip from Helensburgh to Glasgow is likely to be early Sunday evening, so fingers crossed no cancellations
As far as I can see, the advertised hourly Helensburgh to Edinburgh at XX:55 is still on, finishing with the 19:55 to Edinburgh and final train at 21:25 to Airdrie.
 

fraser158

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Well it looks like the Highland mainline services are almost all cancelled.

Only services running are
0940 Inverness to London Kings Cross
1053 Inverness to Edinburgh
1237 Inverness to Glasgow Queen Street
1326 Inverness to Edinburgh

1552 Edinburgh to Inverness
1200 London Kings Cross (1632 from Edinburgh) to Inverness
1752 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness
 

InvHst

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Well it looks like the Highland mainline services are almost all cancelled.

Only services running are
0940 Inverness to London Kings Cross
1053 Inverness to Edinburgh
1237 Inverness to Glasgow Queen Street
1326 Inverness to Edinburgh

1552 Edinburgh to Inverness
1200 London Kings Cross (1632 from Edinburgh) to Inverness
1752 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness
You'll find the ones running are ones covered by Inverness crew. The ones not running are crewed by other depots
 

Facing Back

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Is spending the subsidy on the intercity buses a better way to provide connections between communities?
 

chuff chuff

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Inverness-based drivers not participating in the dispute then to the same extent or indeed at all
If any of the committed sundays none of the drivers are sick or annual leave then the turn will be covered and that can change from week to week.
 

Scotrail84

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Inverness-based drivers not participating in the dispute then to the same extent or indeed at all

It could be that the jobs out of Inverness today are not hindered by annual leave, sickness or a vacant line in the roster. Sometimes that happens.
 

jagardner1984

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Or simply Inverness isn't as reliant on overtime as some other depots
I feel there was something about Fort William or Oban based drivers on here some time ago - I suppose at smaller depots (not that Inverness is the same, but still smaller than Glasgow or Edinburgh by some margin, I'd imagine) the difference between "enough" and "catastrophically short" is much smaller, and thus they probably have a slightly higher headcount per normally scheduled diagram than those down in the central belt ?

I note this story is headlining the BBC Scotland news today with the engineering works on the GLQ routes too.

 

JKP

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Is spending the subsidy on the intercity buses a better way to provide connections between communities?
I think you will find that Scottish Citylink, Ember, Flixbus, are run on a commercial basis with no subsidy other than compensation for concessionary fares and whatever is now fuel duty rebate for those registered as local bus services.
 

jagardner1984

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I think you will find that Scottish Citylink, Ember, Flixbus, are run on a commercial basis with no subsidy other than compensation for concessionary fares and whatever is now fuel duty rebate for those registered as local bus services.
I think this is what the poster was getting at - that given the relative speeds / timings, one might get rather more bang for bucks by investing that money currently being spent on various bits of Scotrail on coach travel of varying timings / comfort levels.

I suppose to ask that question in another way, were for example the Kyle line not to exist, how many users would be required to make the "business case" for it to be built. I suspect it is rather more than the current annual ridership, and rather a lot of entirely "free" luxury coaches could be run from Inverness for the construction cost.

So many people only engage with some forms of travel every now and then, and reputation or damage to it can be so long lasting, I do wonder whether longer term service reduction may be the outcome of some of these current disputes. Which would really be a tragedy.
 

swaldman

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I think this is what the poster was getting at - that given the relative speeds / timings, one might get rather more bang for bucks by investing that money currently being spent on various bits of Scotrail on coach travel of varying timings / comfort levels.

I suppose to ask that question in another way, were for example the Kyle line not to exist, how many users would be required to make the "business case" for it to be built. I suspect it is rather more than the current annual ridership, and rather a lot of entirely "free" luxury coaches could be run from Inverness for the construction cost.

So many people only engage with some forms of travel every now and then, and reputation or damage to it can be so long lasting, I do wonder whether longer term service reduction may be the outcome of some of these current disputes. Which would really be a tragedy.
AIUI the Kyle and Far North lines currently have their existence, and cost, justified in the Scottish parliament not by transport for locals but as tourist attractions. Which is a bit sad, but also useful for those of us who live at the end of them...
 

Falcon1200

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1552 Edinburgh to Inverness
1200 London Kings Cross (1632 from Edinburgh) to Inverness
1752 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness

This means that the first arrival at Inverness today from the Highland Main Line (ie Perth direction) is not until 1910! Not that the Sunday service is especially good normally, but this is nearly 6 hours later than the usual first arrival at 1319. Do Scotrail (management and staff alike) have a death wish?
 
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I think this is what the poster was getting at - that given the relative speeds / timings, one might get rather more bang for bucks by investing that money currently being spent on various bits of Scotrail on coach travel of varying timings / comfort levels.

I suppose to ask that question in another way, were for example the Kyle line not to exist, how many users would be required to make the "business case" for it to be built. I suspect it is rather more than the current annual ridership, and rather a lot of entirely "free" luxury coaches could be run from Inverness for the construction cost.

So many people only engage with some forms of travel every now and then, and reputation or damage to it can be so long lasting, I do wonder whether longer term service reduction may be the outcome of some of these current disputes. Which would really be a tragedy.
Yes, it's often said that Scotland's only commercially-justifiable lines are Edinburgh to Queen Street and each of these stations to Aberdeen. If it hadn't been for the wider backlash against cuts in the 1960s I imagine Scotland's network would be much smaller and perhaps easier to resource than at present.
Obviously reputational damage from the present dispute isn't great, but these days passengers have pretty good alternatives to using trains. I doubt many people would be genuinely inconvenienced if some rail subsidy was diverted into coach travel instead.
 

Facing Back

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I think this is what the poster was getting at - that given the relative speeds / timings, one might get rather more bang for bucks by investing that money currently being spent on various bits of Scotrail on coach travel of varying timings / comfort levels.

I suppose to ask that question in another way, were for example the Kyle line not to exist, how many users would be required to make the "business case" for it to be built. I suspect it is rather more than the current annual ridership, and rather a lot of entirely "free" luxury coaches could be run from Inverness for the construction cost.

So many people only engage with some forms of travel every now and then, and reputation or damage to it can be so long lasting, I do wonder whether longer term service reduction may be the outcome of some of these current disputes. Which would really be a tragedy.
You made my point with rather more eloquence.

That is the question. I love travelling by train. When I go to our office in Berlin each month I leave on a Friday or Saturday and take the train. It costs more than a business class flight from City Airport so I put my hand in my pocket but it is worth it. We used to travel to London weekly, but when the strikes were at their peak we had to make other arrangements for time critical meetings and we haven't gone back in bulk - it was a struggle to accept road transport as being more reliable than a train. I love traveling in Scotland, even though I always feel a bit guilty hiding my glass of wine in a coffee flask so I would love trains to be the right answer.

At the moment though it is tough to see that it is. I know that this is heretical on a rail forum. Commuter routes into large conurbations and intercity travel between then is one thing but inter-rural travel is a different challenge.

Industrial relations are in the toilet and with all due respect to the hard-working railway staff, I don't believe that the solution lies solely on one side of the argument and nationalisation brings its own challenges. Having worked in many industries over the decades, many of them where safety is critical and/or regulation is very tight, I have never seem anything even remotely similar to the railways here. Fixing it is the work of a decade even with good will on both sides, which most certainly doesn't exist at the moment.

Doing anything on the railways takes a decade and costs billions. I know that it is difficult to maintain victorian infrastructure, our loading guage is unique and were are doing everything it seems for the first time so it is not a criticism to those involved with the work - but it is a fact. I had high hopes for HS2 but lady luck farted in my face there too. I live in a village in rural cheshire which is rabidly anti-HS2 so there was a pretty good party when it was cancelled.

I can't help wonder if a terribly good bus network is not a more useful and useable and cost effective and practical solution for public transport other than high volume commuting and intercity travel. I'd be delighted to be wrong.
 

GordonT

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You made my point with rather more eloquence.

That is the question. I love travelling by train. When I go to our office in Berlin each month I leave on a Friday or Saturday and take the train. It costs more than a business class flight from City Airport so I put my hand in my pocket but it is worth it. We used to travel to London weekly, but when the strikes were at their peak we had to make other arrangements for time critical meetings and we haven't gone back in bulk - it was a struggle to accept road transport as being more reliable than a train. I love traveling in Scotland, even though I always feel a bit guilty hiding my glass of wine in a coffee flask so I would love trains to be the right answer.

I can't help wonder if a terribly good bus network is not a more useful and useable and cost effective and practical solution for public transport other than high volume commuting and intercity travel. I'd be delighted to be wrong.
Add in the costs associated with the undieselisation of the rail network and it becomes a no brainer that someone will be tasked to dust off some of the Serpell solution.
 

northscots

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Say what you want about the relative pay rates vs other industries, I wonder how many people would accept an offer that reduced their standard of living year after year?

2021-2022 2.5% pay rise vs 1.6% inflation
2022-2023 5% pay rise vs 11% inflation
2023-2024 5% pay rise vs 10.1% inflation
2024-2025 2.5% (proposed) pay rise vs 4% inflation

This means that the first arrival at Inverness today from the Highland Main Line (ie Perth direction) is not until 1910! Not that the Sunday service is especially good normally, but this is nearly 6 hours later than the usual first arrival at 1319. Do Scotrail (management and staff alike) have a death wish?
It's not really a dispute between scotrail management and it's staff. More to do with Scottish government trying to impose the civil service pay policy on Scotrail staff and the unions opposing that. Scotrail management and staff are stuck in the middle. That being said, the pay offer is below inflation for the 3rd year in a row.
 
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jagardner1984

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Say what you want about the relative pay rates vs other industries, I wonder how many people would accept an offer that reduced their standard of living year after year?

2021-2022 2.5% pay rise vs 1.6% inflation
2022-2023 5% pay rise vs 11% inflation
2023-2024 5% pay rise vs 10.1% inflation
2024-2025 2.5% (proposed) pay rise vs 4% inflation


It's not really a dispute between scotrail management and it's staff. More to do with Scottish government trying to impose the civil service pay policy on Scotrail staff and the unions opposing that. Scotrail management and staff are stuck in the middle. That being said, the pay offer is below inflation for the 3rd year in a row.
As a general point, I am not sure why the baseline for any pay offer, private or public, isn't some variant of Retail Price Index, because surely so much of this grief comes from the insinuation (or indeed sadly the reality) that anyone's job has become less valuable over the preceeding year, which is what a below inflation increase implies.

I am also not sure when, in the context of the Junior Doctors dispute, there isn't firmer pushback on "no, we don't want 35% INCREASE, we don't want to earn significantly less than we did in 2008."

I suspect if the pay RISE had been 0%, but had instead just tracked inflation for those years, there would really be little to no argument now.
 

northscots

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As a general point, I am not sure why the baseline for any pay offer, private or public, isn't some variant of Retail Price Index, because surely so much of this grief comes from the insinuation (or indeed sadly the reality) that anyone's job has become less valuable over the preceeding year, which is what a below inflation increase implies.

I am also not sure when, in the context of the Junior Doctors dispute, there isn't firmer pushback on "no, we don't want 35% INCREASE, we don't want to earn significantly less than we did in 2008."

I suspect if the pay RISE had been 0%, but had instead just tracked inflation for those years, there would really be little to no argument now.
Couldn't agree more with that assessment
 
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swaldman

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Say what you want about the relative pay rates vs other industries, I wonder how many people would accept an offer that reduced their standard of living year after year?

Many people have in the last few years. But railway staff have stronger unions than most of us, and thus may not have to. And that's fair enough!
 
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