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Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

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AlistairCowell

AlistairCowell

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InOban said:
Tonight's delivery seems to be off again, or at least the engine movement from Tyne yard had been cancelled. That's two weeks running.. It really seems have been suspended ....
Click to expand...

I think this might be to do with the union dispute with the driver's front "fish-bowl" window:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43031527
Aslef has warned that modifications must be made to ScotRail's new Class 385 electric trains - or its drivers will refuse to work them.

The train drivers' union is concerned that the curved windscreen is causing reflections of other signals at night.

Drivers identified the problem on a recent evening test run between Glasgow Central and Paisley Gilmour Street....
Click to expand...
 
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380101

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AlistairCowell said:
I think this might be to do with the union dispute with the driver's front "fish-bowl" window:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43031527
Click to expand...

Aslef are most certainly NOT in dispute with ScotRail over this issue. Our District organiser, Kevin Lindsey has merely made ScotRail aware that drivers have serious concerns over the windscreens distorting their view and that if it is not remedied then they would be in dispute over legitimate safety concerns. There will be a solution to the problem, but its going to take time to solve and will most likely result in the 385s introduction to passenger service delayed by several months. ScotRail will continue to put out positive spin on the situation and lay the blame for the delays on Hitatchi - quite rightly in my view.
 
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InOban

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A several month delay would cause chaos, because of the dmu cascade predicated on their arrival in service.
 
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380101

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Typhoon_93 said:
Am sure the issue will be solved but how come it’s only been noticed so late in the testing program..?
Click to expand...

It was picked up fairly early on in the testing of the first 385 that came up to Scotland. Issues with single aspect signals appearing as double aspects were widely discussed in this thread several pages back. The acceleration of the issue into wider public knowledge came after test runs from Glasgow Central to Paisley goods loop a few weeks ago. Company directors, Aslef officials and Hitatchi personel were on board several of these runs. These runs took place after the issue surrounding the viewing of single aspects as double due to the windscreen was meant to have been resolved.
 
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Bletchleyite

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380101 said:
Aslef are most certainly NOT in dispute with ScotRail over this issue. Our District organiser, Kevin Lindsey has merely made ScotRail aware that drivers have serious concerns over the windscreens distorting their view and that if it is not remedied then they would be in dispute over legitimate safety concerns. There will be a solution to the problem, but its going to take time to solve and will most likely result in the 385s introduction to passenger service delayed by several months. ScotRail will continue to put out positive spin on the situation and lay the blame for the delays on Hitatchi - quite rightly in my view.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree, it is totally Hitachi's fault (or that of a subcontractor if they farmed the design work out, but just like if I buy a telly and it doesn't work I don't care who the subcontractor was, I care who made it and who sold it to me). They were asked to design something, they agreed to design it, they did design it...and they did it wrong. ScotRail certainly cannot be blamed for that, they placed the order in good faith.
 
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InOban

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Except that a light engine is scheduled to depart around now to return to Tyne yard.
 
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InOban

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As I expected, there's no sign of the scheduled delivery leaving, although it hasn't been cancelled - but it wasn't cancelled on Wednesday either, it just didn't happen.
 
marks87

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Fleetwood Boy said:
At a very crude calculation I’d estimate that there’s 5 remaining 380 diagrams on Inverclydes in the peaks, most (if not all) being 3 cars. I think there might be 1 or 2 380 diagrams on the Carstairs services. And aren’t the North Berwicks done by 380s?

That doesn’t add up to enough to cover the EG diagrams which are currently 170s, so even if spare units can be conjured up from somewhere to release those 380s that’s not enough? So some Ayrshires would also have to lose their 380s.

318s and 320s might be suitable replacements. But there’s 16 diagrams required to cover EG in the peaks (assuming every peak departure needs 2 units) and only 4 currently scheduled for 380s so there’s a deficit of 12 units per day. Squeezing that out of current resources just doesn’t sound credible?

So surely ScR will need to borrow something from somewhere?
Click to expand...

Well, they've announced reductions in capacity on the E-G via Falkirk route from Monday.

Morning peak
Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley via Falkirk High
  • 0600 will run will with four carriages
  • 0745 will run with three carriages
  • 0815 will run with four carriages
Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High
  • 0645 will run with three carriages
  • 0715 will run with four carriages
  • 0845 will run with three carriages
Evening peak
Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley via Falkirk High
  • 1745 will run with three carriages
  • 1815 will run with four carriages
Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High
  • 1645 will run with three carriages
  • 1715 will run with four carriages
Click to expand...

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/Edinburgh-GlasgowChanges

To try and ease the loadings, they've reduced the price of an Anytime Day Return via Airdrie to £13 (with all intermediate fares capped at that price too).
 
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mcmad

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170401 said:
Yip, sure does!
Click to expand...
So what other services are going to be short formed elsewhere to provide the stock?

I suspect politically this is going to go very badly for Scotrail, particularly since the 385 don't seem to be close to entry into service
 
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InOban

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The ScoGov have made it quite clear that it's nothing to do with them. I would have thought that the prime responsibility lies with Hitachi, Although if Abellio had gone for the safe option of ordering more 380s there would have been no problem. We are unlikely to know the details, especially the risk sharing, between Abellio and Hitachi. I'm sure they're regretting bidding for the contract.
 
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170401

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InOban said:
The ScoGov have made it quite clear that it's nothing to do with them. I would have thought that the prime responsibility lies with Hitachi, Although if Abellio had gone for the safe option of ordering more 380s there would have been no problem. We are unlikely to know the details, especially the risk sharing, between Abellio and Hitachi. I'm sure they're regretting bidding for the contract.
Click to expand...


Were 380's or a derivative offered to them? And would Siemens have been able to provide them in the timescales required (ignoring the current delays as they couldnt have been anticipated then)?
 
Bungle965

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InOban said:
The ScoGov have made it quite clear that it's nothing to do with them. I would have thought that the prime responsibility lies with Hitachi, Although if Abellio had gone for the safe option of ordering more 380s there would have been no problem. We are unlikely to know the details, especially the risk sharing, between Abellio and Hitachi. I'm sure they're regretting bidding for the contract.
Click to expand...
I'm don't believe that time Siemens were offering the original 'Desiro' at that point would have been if anything the 'Desiro City'.
Sam
 
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It would be nice to think that if the 385 introduction is going to be significantly delayed, the industry could pull together to get a work around, helping out Northern who really seem to have been royally shafted by delayed electrification and now delayed DMUs. I reckon that if every peak hour E&G departure needs to be doubled-up, then that's a total of 16 unit diagrams per day - so a fleet of, say, 18 in total? Of which 4 are currently being covered by 380s. So a source of 14 additional suitable EMUs is required - ideally ones which can enter service almost immediately, releasing more 380s to cover the whole of the E&G.

What's available? So far as I know, only 319s and 365s, neither of which are currently operated in Scotland. So could either class be returned to service in England to allow a cascade of compatible stock to Scotland - presumably 321s would be best, but perhaps 317s as an alternative (assuming they can couple to 318s or 320s)? In meantime, 314s have to soldier on.

Meanwhile, take the trailer car out of one 380/1 at a time, partially reseat to 2+1 with full-size tables, and you've got yourself some first-class capacity (1 car in a 7 car set, or 1 car in 4 off-peak) - only need to do 9 of them, and the short-formed 380/1s can run in service as 3 car units while their trailers are upgraded.

Of course if the 385 problem is going to be solved soon - just do nothing and muddle through?
 
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47802

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Fleetwood Boy said:
It would be nice to think that if the 385 introduction is going to be significantly delayed, the industry could pull together to get a work around, helping out Northern who really seem to have been royally shafted by delayed electrification and now delayed DMUs. I reckon that if every peak hour E&G departure needs to be doubled-up, then that's a total of 16 unit diagrams per day - so a fleet of, say, 18 in total? Of which 4 are currently being covered by 380s. So a source of 14 additional suitable EMUs is required - ideally ones which can enter service almost immediately, releasing more 380s to cover the whole of the E&G.

What's available? So far as I know, only 319s and 365s, neither of which are currently operated in Scotland. So could either class be returned to service in England to allow a cascade of compatible stock to Scotland - presumably 321s would be best, but perhaps 317s as an alternative (assuming they can couple to 318s or 320s)? In meantime, 314s have to soldier on.

Meanwhile, take the trailer car out of one 380/1 at a time, partially reseat to 2+1 with full-size tables, and you've got yourself some first-class capacity (1 car in a 7 car set, or 1 car in 4 off-peak) - only need to do 9 of them, and the short-formed 380/1s can run in service as 3 car units while their trailers are upgraded.

Of course if the 385 problem is going to be solved soon - just do nothing and muddle through?
Click to expand...

So it sounds like what your proposing could end up with 2 lots of staff training instead of 1, and as for 1st class isn't that Temp suspended on Glasgow Edinburgh and will presumably remain so until the 385's are introduced, I'm sure Scotrail will want to spend time and money on your convoluted 1st class solution Not!

It depends how long this problem is going to take to fix, if there isn't a quick fix and Hitachi have to do major mod then maybe Scotrail will have to bring in some EMU's on temp basis.
 
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Fleetwood Boy said:
Meanwhile, take the trailer car out of one 380/1 at a time, partially reseat to 2+1 with full-size tables, and you've got yourself some first-class capacity (1 car in a 7 car set, or 1 car in 4 off-peak) - only need to do 9 of them, and the short-formed 380/1s can run in service as 3 car units while their trailers are upgraded.
Click to expand...

I don't think I'd bother doing anything about 1st. It's not essential. At a push "do a Southern" and put some antimacassars on some Standard seats.
 
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It appears there are extra 380 workings on the E-G line. The 0715 E-G was a 4-car 380 this morning, and the 0700 was still a 380, so I’m not sure if the 0700 was only 3 cars or if an extra 380 was being used.

The same goes for the 1700 and 1715 services from Edinburgh.

Edit- Actually it appears the xx15 has been running as a 380 all day.
 
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