Scotrail collects 2nd improvement notice

[380101]

I wonder whether some guards are declining to work overtime/rest days in the run-up to the RMT negotiations over payment for these?

I doubt it. The problem is, as it always has been, that they dont have enough staff to cover the timetable they're contracted to provide. Its been the same for years. Staff should not have to sacrifice their time off to cover work because their employer hasn't planned and recruited correctly. It may sound harsh, but I dont know of any other industry where the staff are demonised or made the scapegoat for enjoying their days off.

 

[gsnedders]

I doubt it. The problem is, as it always has been, that they dont have enough staff to cover the timetable they're contracted to provide. Its been the same for years. Staff should not have to sacrifice their time off to cover work because their employer hasn't planned and recruited correctly. It may sound harsh, but I dont know of any other industry where the staff are demonised or made the scapegoat for enjoying their days off.

AIUI, this has been true for decades, going back to BR? Has this gotten worse under Abellio with drivers leaving, or…?

 

[Carlisle]

AIUI, this has been true for decades, going back to BR? Has this gotten worse under Abellio with drivers leaving, or…?

Rightly or wrongly there’ll be more staff nowadays feeling they’re earning sufficient wages without needing to work much overtime, perhaps the increased difficulty in obtaining mortugages and become homeowners n the present climate is a contributing factor .

 

[Dr Hoo]

I doubt it. The problem is, as it always has been, that they dont have enough staff to cover the timetable they're contracted to provide. Its been the same for years. Staff should not have to sacrifice their time off to cover work because their employer hasn't planned and recruited correctly. It may sound harsh, but I dont know of any other industry where the staff are demonised or made the scapegoat for enjoying their days off.

Noting that there is a chronic (rather than simply recent) staff shortage issue here, can anybody provide any more background on ScotRail's policies and circumstances in this area?

For example: is there a recruitment ban; have training resources been lost so that newly-recruited staff cannot become competent within reasonable periods; have sensible establishments not been agreed with union representatives; are ScotRail train crew salaries low compared to other operators so staff are constantly being poached; are current staff leaving in droves for other reasons; or what?

 

[380101]

Noting that there is a chronic (rather than simply recent) staff shortage issue here, can anybody provide any more background on ScotRail's policies and circumstances in this area?

For example: is there a recruitment ban; have training resources been lost so that newly-recruited staff cannot become competent within reasonable periods; have sensible establishments not been agreed with union representatives; are ScotRail train crew salaries low compared to other operators so staff are constantly being poached; are current staff leaving in droves for other reasons; or what?

There is currently an ongoing training programme for drivers - approx. 200 new drivers in the pipeline, but the training school can only take so many at a time and it takes approx. 14 months from start to qualified driver, so it's not going to be a quick fix.

ScotRail Driver basic salary is approx. £10,000+ below that of other TOCs eg Trans Pennine, Virgin, X-Country. Approx. 100 drivers (including several Driver trainers from the school) have jumped ship to other TOCs/FOCs over the last 18 months (some with over 30 years ScotRail service). A high work content and long shifts is a big reason for drivers looking to move to "Intercity TOCs" where they may only make 5 stops each way a day, compared to 150 a day in ScotRail. More money, less work is a no brainer. I believe management are slowly starting to realise there is a going rate for a train driver in Scotland and they are not currently paying it! At the end of the day we are selling our labour, and the current "market value" of our labour in Scotland is significantly higher than what ScotRail pay.

I cant speak for the conductor grade except to say that at my depot there is no shortages and all jobs are covered everyday and the spare turns generally remain unused.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thank you, 380101, for that informative reply.

I note from the Rail Delivery Group press release about the May 2019 timetable that service improvements are only going ahead "where there is high confidence that the necessary infrastructure, staffing plans and new trains will be ready". So far as ScotRail changes are concerned let us hope that this is in fact the case.

 

[Deltic1961]

The fares in Scotland aren't exactly cheap though. Obviously the driver wages are set by the TOC and not government then?

You would think that employee levels and wages would be part of the agreement because if not the franchisee could pay a pittance and have too few staff to operate the service (which is realistically what we are seeing)

This isn't good news for the immediate future

 

[380101]

The fares in Scotland aren't exactly cheap though. Obviously the driver wages are set by the TOC and not government then?

You would think that employee levels and wages would be part of the agreement because if not the franchisee could pay a pittance and have too few staff to operate the service (which is realistically what we are seeing)

This isn't good news for the immediate future

Why would the government have a say in what a private company pays its employees? All Transport Scotland do is set the terms and conditions on how they wish the ScotRail franchise to be run. Its up to the Franchisee, Abellio in this case, to meet the terms and run the services as specified. How they do that is entirely up to them.

Historically, in BR days and during every franchise period in ScotRail since privatisation, they have relied on staff giving up their days off to keep the railway running. With the massive increase in workloads and almost daily abuse from disgruntled passengers it's no wonder staff have had enough and decided to enjoy their days off work like people in every other industry do.

 

[Deltic1961]

But it's not being ran properly so who sorts it out?

 

[380101]

But it's not being ran properly so who sorts it out?

Ultimately Transport Scotland, as is the case at the moment with the 2 improvement notices in place. I'm not the biggest fan of Abellio, but considering their hands were tied with having to order the Hitatchi 385s that Transport Scotland had chosen and specified and then the problems that have blighted their introduction along with wildly optimistic delivery dates for the HSTs I'd say Abellio are making the best of a bad situation. Driver recruitment and training is ongoing, as is training in other grades. I very much doubt any other company, public or private would be fairing much better at the moment. Calls from some quarters on here to get rid of "middle management" etc wouldn't improve things as ultimately there is not a surplus of railway management just waiting in the wings to step in, despite what the former Transport Secretary at Holyrood said last year!

 

[InOban]

Do the 'intercity' TOCS train drivers from scratch or do they rely on poaching from the local TOCS? In Scotland, of course, I think the only training for new entrants is through Scotrail. Obviously if you aren't spending money training you can afford to pay more. I think I read somewhere that there are plans to transfer basic training to the FE sector, leaving only training on specific traction to the sponsoring TOC.

In the days of steam, I think you probably had thirty years experience from engine cleaner through fireman to local driver to 'top link', I think they were called. I never understood why they weren't the top of the tree, as the local drivers, stopping every few minutes seemed to have the tough job. I'm sure there are others here who know much much more than me.

 

[380101]

Do the 'intercity' TOCS train drivers from scratch or do they rely on poaching from the local TOCS? In Scotland, of course, I think the only training for new entrants is through Scotrail. Obviously if you aren't spending money training you can afford to pay more. I think I read somewhere that there are plans to transfer basic training to the FE sector, leaving only training on specific traction to the sponsoring TOC.

Yes, Virgin, X-Country etc do recruit trainee drivers from time to time, but its far easier for them to recruit qualified drivers. This option lets them pick the best and obviously saves them alot of money and they have prodcutive drivers in a much shorter time frame.

I can't see TOCs outsourcing parts of the training for drivers to FE colleges. It wpuld cost them just the same, if not more and introduce another layer of complexity which the rail industry does not need. It would be resisted strongly by ASLEF and rightly so. Its just another way to feed the gravy train of privatisation, where large training organisations would make alot of money out of training thousands of people who may never get a job in the railway. In house training is always the way to go for roles that are safety critical such as train driver and conductor/guard.

ScotRail, like other TOCs, has a highly trained and dedicated team of trainers who know the roles inside out, how the company operate and the routes and traction thw company operate. The rules based part of the training, whilst classroom based, relies on the trainer being able to discuss real situations and signal systems and track layouts on the routes the trainees will work. A FE lecturer will not have that level of experience or knowledge of the railway that in house trainers do. Its easy to teach people to pass exams/assessments but alot harder, if not impossible, to teach people about a job/role if you have never done it. I also don't see railway experienced driver trainers leaving a highly paid job to move to the FE sector, where wages and conditions are poorer. In short, don't expect to see your local college in Scotland offering train driver courses anytime soon!

 

[gsnedders]

I'm not the biggest fan of Abellio, but considering their hands were tied with having to order the Hitatchi 385s that Transport Scotland had chosen and specified and then the problems that have blighted their introduction along with wildly optimistic delivery dates for the HSTs I'd say Abellio are making the best of a bad situation.

The 385s weren't chosen and specified by TS: they were chosen and specified by Abellio, and the order placed just before they took over the franchise (albeit long after the award).

The anticipated quality of them will have formed part of the quality scoring of the bid, but beyond the minimum requirements placed on the new rolling stock for the EGIP in the ITT and Franchise Agreement TS didn't have any say.

 

[380101]

The 385s weren't chosen and specified by TS: they were chosen and specified by Abellio, and the order placed just before they took over the franchise (albeit long after the award).

I'm only going on the strong inside rumour from guys that have been working on the 385 project from the beginning that Hitatchi were the chosen manufacturer right from the outset of the Franchise tender process. No other manufacturer was in a position to offer 70 units in the timescale (now long passed) required due to large orders for other TOCs. Most drivers, I think would have preffered an updated 380, but Siemens weren't offering one. Abellio certainly didn't specify the gangway, as their first images of the 385 presented to us in the staff roadshows in the weeks leading up to the franchise handover had no gangway on them. TS pretty much stipulated the gangway to allow end to end passage of a multi unit for passengers. Similar to the 380 issue, where its original cab design can be see daily plodding along lines in London on the class 700.

 

[Deltic1961]

Seems like another one of those situations where everyone involved just blames everyone else and nothing ever gets sorted.

No ultimate responsibility for the rail network which I would class as major infrastructure that the Country and the people in it rely on.

I would have thought that the buck would stop at Michael Matheson but he doesn't seem that interested.

 

[Highlandspring]

I'm only going on the strong inside rumour from guys that have been working on the 385 project from the beginning that Hitatchi were the chosen manufacturer right from the outset of the Franchise tender process. No other manufacturer was in a position to offer 70 units in the timescale (now long passed) required due to large orders for other TOCs. Most drivers, I think would have preffered an updated 380, but Siemens weren't offering one.

That’s not the case, the First bid was predicated on an order of 380s (and updated 185s for the ‘Intercity’ fleet).

 

[380101]

That’s not the case, the First bid was predicated on an order of 380s (and updated 185s for the ‘Intercity’ fleet).

The extra 380s would have been welcome and they'd have been in service alot quicker. Better units all round.

185s on the other hand are nowhere near as good as the refurb HSTs are! I've travelled on it and its excellent and is hands down the best refurb job of any ScotRail rolling stock! Thankfully KBR Springburn / Gemini never got let near them! Abellio chose wisely in their InterCity stock choice but Wabtec and Angel have let them down massively with a highly ambitious refurb timetable on Mk3 coaches that have had almost 40years of salt water spray hitting them on the South West Coast of England. We're meant to be getting the best ones for refurb so I'd hate to see the worst ones!

Hopefully come May we'll be in a far better place rolling stock wise with all the 385s in service, 314s gone and a few more refurb HSTs in service.

 

[Northhighland]

Although I'm an SNP voter I don't support the parking tax powers. However the budget only gives councils the powers to impose a levy if they want to, it doesn't compel councils to adopt it and many councils have already stated they won't be adopting it. Even where it is adopted it will be up to individual employers whether or not they pass the charge on to their staff.

So really the tax is absolutely nothing to to do with the government where it is applied? Blatantly discriminates against the rural parts of Scotland where no public transport exists. As to Scotrail, clearly the government exercises a fair degree of control over the rail system and really haven't delivered big time. Not just one part of the system but it is a real shambles. Inverness to Glasgow just before Xmas train stop in Perth and we weer told this train is terminating due to crew shortages. Just left on the platform. paid £70 quid for that privilege. Utter shambles.

 

[Deltic1961]

I'm not a fan of delay repay. Although I understand there should be a mechanism in place to compensate for cancelled journeys it's almost as it Scotrail just use it as a get out for providing a poor service.

The fares are so high that even if they have to compensate they're probably still making a profit.

 

[68000]

So really the tax is absolutely nothing to to do with the government where it is applied? Blatantly discriminates against the rural parts of Scotland where no public transport exists. As to Scotrail, clearly the government exercises a fair degree of control over the rail system and really haven't delivered big time. Not just one part of the system but it is a real shambles. Inverness to Glasgow just before Xmas train stop in Perth and we weer told this train is terminating due to crew shortages. Just left on the platform. paid £70 quid for that privilege. Utter shambles.

Can you tell us where the parking levy is in force in Scotland?

 

[oldman]

Can you tell us where the parking levy is in force in Scotland?

Since it's not even law yet, nowhere. And when it is law, probably still nowhere. But it keeps the Greens happy.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I'm not a fan of delay repay. Although I understand there should be a mechanism in place to compensate for cancelled journeys it's almost as it Scotrail just use it as a get out for providing a poor service.

The fares are so high that even if they have to compensate they're probably still making a profit.

ScotRail hasn’t made a profit in years. Very few people are aware of how dire the financial situation is, with this year already looking to be the worst one yet.

 

[Mingulay]

ScotRail hasn’t made a profit in years. Very few people are aware of how dire the financial situation is, with this year already looking to be the worst one yet.

As I’m still stuck in Edinburgh. I’m thinking a second improvement notice for scotrail is too mild. I think a death certificate is more appropriate. The scotrail alliance is beyond resuscitation!

 

[380101]

ScotRail hasn’t made a profit in years. Very few people are aware of how dire the financial situation is, with this year already looking to be the worst one yet.

They've actually made a profit over the last year. Not anything to crow about, but they have achieved it, even with the difficult operating conditions they've faced/created for themselves.

The biggest problem is the so called "Alliance", which has not achieved what it set out to do. It's created a world where delays dont just seem to matter as much as they did before the Franchise began, where track and lineside equipment faults dont get repaired as quickly as before and animosity between ScotRail and Network Rail staff because even though its an Alliance, the Network Rail staff don't get the travel benefits the ScotRail staff do - Conductors/TEs have daily confrontation with some NR staff over ticketless travel.

 

[Class83]

Yes, Virgin, X-Country etc do recruit trainee drivers from time to time, but its far easier for them to recruit qualified drivers. This option lets them pick the best and obviously saves them alot of money and they have prodcutive drivers in a much shorter time frame.

I can't see TOCs outsourcing parts of the training for drivers to FE colleges. It wpuld cost them just the same, if not more and introduce another layer of complexity which the rail industry does not need. It would be resisted strongly by ASLEF and rightly so. Its just another way to feed the gravy train of privatisation, where large training organisations would make alot of money out of training thousands of people who may never get a job in the railway. In house training is always the way to go for roles that are safety critical such as train driver and conductor/guard.

ScotRail, like other TOCs, has a highly trained and dedicated team of trainers who know the roles inside out, how the company operate and the routes and traction thw company operate. The rules based part of the training, whilst classroom based, relies on the trainer being able to discuss real situations and signal systems and track layouts on the routes the trainees will work. A FE lecturer will not have that level of experience or knowledge of the railway that in house trainers do. Its easy to teach people to pass exams/assessments but alot harder, if not impossible, to teach people about a job/role if you have never done it. I also don't see railway experienced driver trainers leaving a highly paid job to move to the FE sector, where wages and conditions are poorer. In short, don't expect to see your local college in Scotland offering train driver courses anytime soon!

I understand why drivers might prefer working for LNER/Virgin than Scotrail; more money, fewer stops and it sounds better down the pub. Is it not perhaps something that the DfT, and Transport Scotland might want to consider creating a pooled driver training fund where all TOCs have to contribute to the cost of training drivers. The expectation would be that the best and more experienced would graduate to working on the Intercity operators, but all ToCs should fund the basic training proportionate to the number of drivers they employ.

I also think that TOCs should be required by the franchise system to employ a sufficient number of drivers and conductors to operate their services during contracted hours, including allowances for annual leave and an estimate of sickness. Overtime should only be used to cover for peaks in people being off sick or extra services for special events.

 

[Deltic1961]

Looks like the whole thing needs to be scrapped and started again.

 

[Mingulay]

They've actually made a profit over the last year. Not anything to crow about, but they have achieved it, even with the difficult operating conditions they've faced/created for themselves.

The biggest problem is the so called "Alliance", which has not achieved what it set out to do. It's created a world where delays dont just seem to matter as much as they did before the Franchise began, where track and lineside equipment faults dont get repaired as quickly as before and animosity between ScotRail and Network Rail staff because even though its an Alliance, the Network Rail staff don't get the travel benefits the ScotRail staff do - Conductors/TEs have daily confrontation with some NR staff over ticketless travel.

Can someone think of the passenger in this pantomime? If the alliance was meant to be a coordinating body it clearly isn’t. Now kicked off a third Dunblane train. Reason this time is control parked a GLENROTHES service in front of us . The scotrail guard advice is travel on LNER to Stirling as Scotrail can’t run a bath. Good quote I think!

 

[snookertam]

Can someone think of the passenger in this pantomime? If the alliance was meant to be a coordinating body it clearly isn’t. Now kicked off a third Dunblane train. Reason this time is control parked a GLENROTHES service in front of us . The scotrail guard advice is travel on LNER to Stirling as Scotrail can’t run a bath. Good quote I think!

It would actually be the signalling staff at Edinburgh IECC (signalling centre) who arrange which platforms are used during a time of disruption, and have to think very quickly in those circumstances. Appreciate that it doesn't make it any better for you, and if the timetable was operating properly then it would be working to the permanent platform arrangements, but when disruption begins then there can be a number of unintended (even unforseen) consequences.

But the main point still stands, the passengers using these services are being treated abysmally. A combination of poor decision making by Abellio management and Transport Scotland is, IMHO, the root cause of what we are seeing now. Transport Scotland - and the Scottish Government - are hoping it will all go away. Doing anything to strip Abellio of the franchise would likely highlight their own failings.

I'm surprised there was a possibility of additional 380s if First had got the new franchise. Wouldn't have been the worst outcome ever.

 

[InOban]

I understand why drivers might prefer working for LNER/Virgin than Scotrail; more money, fewer stops and it sounds better down the pub. Is it not perhaps something that the DfT, and Transport Scotland might want to consider creating a pooled driver training fund where all TOCs have to contribute to the cost of training drivers. The expectation would be that the best and more experienced would graduate to working on the Intercity operators, but all ToCs should fund the basic training proportionate to the number of drivers they employ.

I also think that TOCs should be required by the franchise system to employ a sufficient number of drivers and conductors to operate their services during contracted hours, including allowances for annual leave and an estimate of sickness. Overtime should only be used to cover for peaks in people being off sick or extra services for special events.

I agree, except that I'm not clear why, in a modern railway, driving InterCity trains should require the most experienced drivers. As others have said, a suburban shift with the need to bring the train to a stop every time at the right place, regardless of the load on the train or the track conditions, seems to me to require the highest levels of skill and concentration.

 

[alangla]

On the plus side, with the new east end bays opening, there should be a bit more flexibility in disruption, assuming LNER/XC terminators are concentrated on the bays, obviously.