ScotRail DOO dispute discussion

[Haig paxton]

Mod note: this thread is for discussion of the disputed introduction of further DOO in the ScotRail franchise.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...onflict-as-train-doors-row-ramps-up-1-4181400

As predicted, Drivers are now about to enter the dispute should they support any ballot issued by their own union.

Will this now come to a quick conclusion? If Abellio don't give the drivers the assurances they seek then this disruption can only escalate.

 

[Carlisle]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...onflict-as-train-doors-row-ramps-up-1-4181400

As predicted, Drivers are now about to enter the dispute should they support any ballot issued by their own union.

Will this now come to a quick conclusion? If Abellio don't give the drivers the assurances they seek then this disruption can only escalate.

Im all for workers rights, job security, good industrial relations,safety etc but this dispute like Southerns has now descended into little more than a power game by the 2 main rail unions determined to push their no DOO/DCD joint agenda at virtually any cost, wherever they can

 

[Sadsmileyface]

It appears that as soon as the RMT walked out of their "encouraging" talks with ScotRail today, they announced a new round of strike dates.

The most cynical one appears to be on the celebrated early re-opening day of Glasgow Queen Street.

Walkouts will be staged on:

Sunday 7th August
Monday 8th August
Thursday 11th August
Saturday 13th August
Sunday 14th August

 

[XC90]

Scotrail offered conductors on new electric trains and then RMT announce new strike dates. What is this industrial action really about please?

 

[170401]

Scotrail haven't offered anything. All they've had is discussions round a table with further discussions planned. That does not equate to a full blown proposal on the table.

 

[47271]

For info, I've just picked this up on BBC Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36940445

Legal action 'threat' in ScotRail dispute

ScotRail is threatening to take legal action in a long-running dispute over the increased use of trains without guards, according to the RMT union.

The train operator has written to the union, challenging some of its actions during a series of strikes.

ScotRail said it believed the RMT may have breached laws governing industrial action.

The union said it would examine ScotRail's letter before responding formally.

ScotRail workers have already staged a number of strikes over the proposals to operate more trains with the driver operating the doors rather than guards.

The RMT union claims the move poses a risk but ScotRail says it would always schedule a second person on trains.

Further strikes are planned for later this month.

A spokesman for ScotRail said: "We have written to the RMT to challenge some actions by the union that we believe contravene the legislation that governs industrial action. We await their response."

An RMT spokesman said: "There is a threat of a legal challenge that RMT will look at in detail before we respond formally.

"This latest move shows that ScotRail are keener on interfering in workplace democracy under the cover of the anti-union laws than they are in dealing with the issues of rail safety at the heart of the current dispute."

The latest row came as ScotRail managers held further talks with RMT officials in an effort to resolve the dispute.

 

[craigybagel]

Meanwhile, in Scotland

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-receives-offer-from-scotrail-in-guards-safety-dispute/

RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that it has received a new offer from ScotRail in the on-going dispute over Driver Only Operation and the safety-critical role of the guards. The offer will now be subject to detailed scrutiny and consultation before there is any formal response from the union.
In a circular to members issued today, RMT General Secretary Mick Cash sets out the details of the company offer;
“ScotRail has confirmed that we are considering a way forward whereby Conductors will be retained on EMUs in the Network area.

It is proposed that any ScotRail EMU services that operate on those routes that are being electrified, now or in the future, and services that operate on the north Berwick-Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow routes (i.e. excluding any EMU services currently operating under existing DOO arrangements) will be: -

1. Guaranteed a Conductor on every new electrified train.
2. Guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

In addition ScotRail confirm that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

This proposal, including the above guarantees, is subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about and agreeing a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.”

RMT will be making no further comment on the offer until our members and representatives have had time to respond through the union’s democratic structures. The current programme of industrial action remains on.

Ends

 

[Dave1987]

What an amazingly pragmatic approach by ScotRail. Certain people 'down south' could learn a lot from this.

 

[47271]

Yes, it's appeared on the BBC now too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36940445

ScotRail makes fresh offer to union ahead of planned strikes

ScotRail has made a new offer aimed at averting fresh strikes in a dispute over the increased use of trains with driver-operated doors.

The offer guarantees that there will be a conductor on every new electrified train.

It is understood to have been made as ScotRail managers met union officials for talks.

The RMT said it would examine the offer, but that its programme of industrial action remained on.

ScotRail said it had been "encouraged" by the latest talks.

The dispute centres on proposals to operate more trains with the driver operating the doors rather than guards, with further strikes planned for later this month.

Workers are set to walk out again for 48 hours from 7 August, then for a further 24 hours on 11 August, and over the weekend of 13 and 14 August.

In a circular issued to its members on Monday afternoon, the RMT's general ecretary Mick Cash said ScotRail's fresh proposal would guarantee that conductors "retain their full competency".

This would involve responsibilities including track rules, safety and evacuation, with trains not able to run without a conductor on board.

The proposal is subject to ScotRail and the RMT "entering into discussion about and agreeing a method of train dispatch for these services".

It adds: "Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond."

The RMT said it would make no further comment on the offer "until our members and representatives have had time to respond through the union's democratic structures".

A ScotRail spokesman said: "At today's meeting with the RMT we discussed a proposal that would see a conductor retained on the new electric trains when they enter service next year.

"It would also mean a change to the way in which those trains are dispatched.

"We were encouraged by the talks today but further discussion will need to take place.

"In order to enable this, we have asked the RMT to suspend all upcoming strikes and to encourage a return to normal working."

ScotRail had earlier threatened to take legal action against the RMT.
'Further disruption'

The train operator had claimed some of the union's actions during the long-running series of strikes may have breached industrial action laws.

The union said it would examine ScotRail's letter before responding formally to the allegations.

Transport Minister Humza Yousaf had convened a meeting of the Scottish government's resilience committee ahead of the planned industrial action, which he said would "undoubtedly mean further disruption for the public who are quite understandably losing patience with the current situation".

He added: "I believe there is a solution to be found through negotiation and as talks are still ongoing I would call for these strikes to be suspended and for all parties to focus on resolving this increasingly frustrating situation".

 

[WatcherZero]

RMT is considering an offer from Scotrail to implement DOO but guarentee a conductor on every train who will retain the former guards training.

 

[IanXC]

RMT is considering an offer from Scotrail to implement DOO but guarentee a conductor on every train who will retain the former guards training.

That sounds something more akin to the GWR solution?

 

[Sadsmileyface]

ScotRail has evidence of the RMT telling its members to implement an overtime ban prior to balloting. Naughty little RMT!

 

[313103]

ScotRail has evidence of the RMT telling its members to implement an overtime ban prior to balloting. Naughty little RMT!

You got any evidence of that? If you havent, Naughty little sadsmileyface!

And who said overtime is compulsory as part of your terms and conditions of employment? Overtime is a choice made by the individual, not by the company and not by the union.

Now getting back on topic, a certain XDM would see this as a caving in by the company against the nasty zealotous trotskyist marxist revolotinary militant fascist RMT!:roll::roll::roll::roll:

It is good that both sides are now at least talking to each other, in order to resolve the issues of how you are going to implement DOO operation..

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I've seen it, yes.

 

[Huntergreed]

Next week, there are due to be 3 strikes by workers of the RMT. These strikes will happen for 24 hours on 7th August, 11th August and over the weekend ofg the 13/14th August. Scotrail are desperately trying to prevent the strikes, but the RMT is sticking to the strike programme. Is there much chance of the strikes being cancelled or not?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Walkouts will be staged on:

Sunday 7th August
Monday 8th August
Thursday 11th August
Saturday 13th August
Sunday 14th August

I am going to London from Carlisle on the Thursday, and I may miss my pendo now

 

[Deepgreen]

What an amazingly pragmatic approach by ScotRail. Certain people 'down south' could learn a lot from this.

Absolutely - but Scotrail has not been selected by HMG to be the guinea pig to break the union(s), whereas GTR has (owing to their conveniently unique contract among other things).

 

[Dave1987]

I've seen it, yes.

I would question what you continual union bashing agenda is actually adding to this debate. It would seem the RMT are actually on the cusp of a very decent result in ScotRail one that both union members and passengers will be very happy about but please don't let that stop you having a few more digs at the union.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Next week, there are due to be 3 strikes by workers of the RMT. These strikes will happen for 24 hours on 7th August, 11th August and over the weekend ofg the 13/14th August. Scotrail are desperately trying to prevent the strikes, but the RMT is sticking to the strike programme. Is there much chance of the strikes being cancelled or not?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I am going to London from Carlisle on the Thursday, and I may miss my pendo now

depends if the Scottish government tell Scotrail to cave in to pressure or not ...

 

[Carlisle]

That sounds something more akin to the GWR solution?

Yes it sounds very similar, but was that GWR solution ultimately part of a settlement reached with the union down there or are they still in dispute ?

 

[Huntergreed]

I just hope that the strikes won't become a regular thing... I use Scotrail quite a lot, usually to Carlisle, and I now might miss my London Bound 390 because of this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Never mind, ill just get a TPE 185 from Lockerbie instead

 

[68000]

I just hope that the strikes won't become a regular thing... I use Scotrail quite a lot, usually to Carlisle, and I now might miss my London Bound 390 because of this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Never mind, ill just get a TPE 185 from Lockerbie instead

I thought they were all 350s nowdays

 

[NotATrainspott]

This seems like the only possible compromise, but I do wonder how much of a difference there will be in the long term. Once the conductors actually aren't critical there's not as much of a reason to train up new ones with that training. Once DOO is in place, the conductors/ticket examiners going on strike would have no effect other than to make it harder to do revenue collection.

 

[313103]

I've seen it, yes.

Care to share it with us then?

 

[gsnedders]

This seems like the only possible compromise, but I do wonder how much of a difference there will be in the long term. Once the conductors actually aren't critical there's not as much of a reason to train up new ones with that training. Once DOO is in place, the conductors/ticket examiners going on strike would have no effect other than to make it harder to do revenue collection.

If there's a requirement that EMU routes cannot run without a conductor then you have an incentive to train new ones.

 

[plymothian]

Yes it sounds very similar, but was that GWR solution ultimately part of a settlement reached with the union down there or are they still in dispute ?

There is no GWR solution.
Nothing has been officially agreed; the RMT is still in dispute.

 

[Carlisle]

There is no GWR solution.
Nothing has been officially agreed; the RMT is still in dispute.

Ok cheers for that information

 

[me123]

What an amazingly pragmatic approach by ScotRail. Certain people 'down south' could learn a lot from this.

Completely agree. I'm not going to get involved in a DOO dispute on this forum, knowing full well that I'll be outsmarted by the many rail staff who read and contribute. However, it's great to see that Scotrail have made reasonable adjustments to their proposal.

I hope that this is a mutually agreeable solution, and I'd like to see the RMT suspend strikes to analyse the offer and ballot their members again.

Of course, this move by Scotrail will play well into the RMT's hands in their dispute with Southern too. I understand (from my distant observations on the situation) that Southern haven't exactly been flexible at the negotiating table, and this could well put some pressure on them to come up with a similar offer.

 

[IanXC]

There is no GWR solution.
Nothing has been officially agreed; the RMT is still in dispute.

Yes apologies, "solution" was the wrong word.

 

[AlexNL]

I have a question: if conductors / guards are required to remain on the trains but the drivers are given full control of the doors, how does the driver know that his guard is still on the train after making a stop?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I guess this is something that will be being looked at by all concerned. Would I be right in thinking that in practice what is being proposed here is similar to what happens on 220s/221s and 390s?