Scotrail Franchise - Abellio

[Altnabreac]

Heard the new lecys for the E+G will be completely doo. Not the news a lot were hoping to hear.

I think it's what we were all expecting but I couldn't see anything at all about it either way in the Franchise Agreement.

Sounds like Transport Scotland had told the operators what their preference was even if it wasn't specified in the ITT.

Will they have on-board staff for ticket sales/catering?

All trains oberated by Abellio Scotrail will have to have either a Guard or Ticket Inspector rostered to be on every service. This is the same as the historic Strathclyde Manning Agreement for EMUs.

I believe in some circumstances of sickness / other staff unavailability the train is permitted to run without a Ticket Inspector but the intention should be for one to be on every train.

On E-G services most trains will also have catering staff to deliver the first class service and operate the trolley through second class. So while it will be DOO there will be 3 staff members on most services.

Given the AT200s look likely to operate to North Berwick (according to the clearance info linked in previous post) presumably this well will this affect that route too?

Are North Berwick's still operated with a Guard at present but with the Driver operating the doors on the 380s?

AT200s will also take over Dunblane / Alloa and from the clearance document looks like they are the intended stock for Shotts post 2019 as well.

That would leave the only Edinburgh routes with Guards as Fife, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think it's what we were all expecting but I couldn't see anything at all about it either way in the Franchise Agreement.

Sounds like Transport Scotland had told the operators what their preference was even if it wasn't specified in the ITT.



All trains oberated by Abellio Scotrail will have to have either a Guard or Ticket Inspector rostered to be on every service. This is the same as the historic Strathclyde Manning Agreement for EMUs.

I believe in some circumstances of sickness / other staff unavailability the train is permitted to run without a Ticket Inspector but the intention should be for one to be on every train.

No. All passenger services must have at least two members of staff not including catering. To run with just a driver is breaking the franchise agreement.

On E-G services most trains will also have catering staff to deliver the first class service and operate the trolley through second class. So while it will be DOO there will be 3 staff members on most services.

Given the AT200s look likely to operate to North Berwick (according to the clearance info linked in previous post) presumably this well will this affect that route too?

No.

Are North Berwick's still operated with a Guard at present but with the Driver operating the doors on the 380s?

Drivers do not touch the doors. Guard opens and closes them. All 380s have door control panels.

AT200s will also take over Dunblane / Alloa and from the clearance document looks like they are the intended stock for Shotts post 2019 as well.

That would leave the only Edinburgh routes with Guards as Fife, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness.

Tweedbank and North berwick/ Dunbar. Also berwick on tweed when they start.

 

[Blindtraveler]

So I'd gues that through a process of natural waistage and transfering to other routes there woant be too many guards being downgraded to the sad and sorry, esp in terms of safety, roll of ticket inspecter then? Obviously some re deployment will happen but I would hope it isnt too bad. Still doesnt hide the fact we're losing safety chritical staff other than drivers which is not good.

 

[Scotrail84]

So I'd gues that through a process of natural waistage and transfering to other routes there woant be too many guards being downgraded to the sad and sorry, esp in terms of safety, roll of ticket inspecter then? Obviously some re deployment will happen but I would hope it isnt too bad. Still doesnt hide the fact we're losing safety chritical staff other than drivers which is not good.

Nobody knows for sure what's going to happen yet. There may be a compromise. Anybody's guess at the moment.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well theres going to be intercity HSTs which will still need guards and Tweedbank will take a few but yes, its certainly wide open.

 

[Altnabreac]

Given the AT200s look likely to operate to North Berwick (according to the clearance info linked in previous post) presumably this well will this affect that route too?

No.

Are North Berwick's still operated with a Guard at present but with the Driver operating the doors on the 380s?

Drivers do not touch the doors. Guard opens and closes them. All 380s have door control panels.

AT200s will also take over Dunblane / Alloa and from the clearance document looks like they are the intended stock for Shotts post 2019 as well.

That would leave the only Edinburgh routes with Guards as Fife, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness.

Tweedbank and North berwick/ Dunbar. Also berwick on tweed when they start.

Table 1 Operational Routes for AT200s basically sets out the AT200 operation to consist of the new EGIP and and Dunblane routes and existing lines east of Hyndland, excluding Bellgrove - Bathgate.

So the intention is obviously not to use them on any Cathcart, North Clyde, Airdrie - Bathgate or Ayrshire diagrams.

Existing electrified lines that could use AT200 under this proposal:
Lanark - Central High Level
Glasgow Central - Edinburgh via Carstairs
Edinburgh Waverley - North Berwick
Edinburgh Waverley - Dunbar - (Berwick upon Tweed)
Any new Motherwell / Hamilton / Cumbernauld / Whifflet diagrams that terminated at a new Finnieston turnback.

Now we also know that 48 coaches worth (16x3) of 314s are being withdrawn by Dec 2018 (39 go in 2017, 9 in 2018) and the only other EMUs arriving are the 21 coaches (7x3) of 321s.

So it seems likely the plan is for AT200s to take over from 380s on at least some of the North Berwick, Dunbar, Carstairs and Lanark routes to cascade 380s to Airdrie - Bathgate, 334s to North Clyde and 318s to Cathcart or something similar to that.

The question then is will AT200s operate with Guards on North Berwick / Dunbar but DOO on the EGIP routes?

 

[Scotrail84]

Table 1 Operational Routes for AT200s basically sets out the AT200 operation to consist of the new EGIP and and Dunblane routes and existing lines east of Hyndland, excluding Bellgrove - Bathgate.

So the intention is obviously not to use them on any Cathcart, North Clyde, Airdrie - Bathgate or Ayrshire diagrams.

Existing electrified lines that could use AT200 under this proposal:
Lanark - Central High Level
Glasgow Central - Edinburgh via Carstairs
Edinburgh Waverley - North Berwick
Edinburgh Waverley - Dunbar - (Berwick upon Tweed)
Any new Motherwell / Hamilton / Cumbernauld / Whifflet diagrams that terminated at a new Finnieston turnback.

Now we also know that 48 coaches worth (16x3) of 314s are being withdrawn by Dec 2018 (39 go in 2017, 9 in 2018) and the only other EMUs arriving are the 21 coaches (7x3) of 321s.

So it seems likely the plan is for AT200s to take over from 380s on at least some of the North Berwick, Dunbar, Carstairs and Lanark routes to cascade 380s to Airdrie - Bathgate, 334s to North Clyde and 318s to Cathcart or something similar to that.

The question then is will AT200s operate with Guards on North Berwick / Dunbar but DOO on the EGIP routes?

The North berwick branch can't go doo. One train working without train staff is my understanding. Then there's the "no extension to doo" but I'm not getting into that again.

 

[Altnabreac]

The North berwick branch can't go doo. One train working without train staff is my understanding. Then there's the "no extension to doo" but I'm not getting into that again.

Sounds like they'll at least need to provide Door Control panels on the AT200s for the North Berwick operation then.

 

[Scotrail84]

Sounds like they'll at least need to provide Door Control panels on the AT200s for the North Berwick operation then.

That's if they decide to use them. There's a long way to go before any new trains grace the tracks up here and many deals/negotiations to be done.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Table 1 Operational Routes for AT200s basically sets out the AT200 operation to consist of the new EGIP and and Dunblane routes and existing lines east of Hyndland, excluding Bellgrove - Bathgate.

So the intention is obviously not to use them on any Cathcart, North Clyde, Airdrie - Bathgate or Ayrshire diagrams.

Existing electrified lines that could use AT200 under this proposal:
Lanark - Central High Level
Glasgow Central - Edinburgh via Carstairs
Edinburgh Waverley - North Berwick
Edinburgh Waverley - Dunbar - (Berwick upon Tweed)
Any new Motherwell / Hamilton / Cumbernauld / Whifflet diagrams that terminated at a new Finnieston turnback.

Now we also know that 48 coaches worth (16x3) of 314s are being withdrawn by Dec 2018 (39 go in 2017, 9 in 2018) and the only other EMUs arriving are the 21 coaches (7x3) of 321s.

So it seems likely the plan is for AT200s to take over from 380s on at least some of the North Berwick, Dunbar, Carstairs and Lanark routes to cascade 380s to Airdrie - Bathgate, 334s to North Clyde and 318s to Cathcart or something similar to that.

The question then is will AT200s operate with Guards on North Berwick / Dunbar but DOO on the EGIP routes?

Both 380s and AT200s won't work on Airdrie-Bathgate because they have to act as standard North Clyde Electrics services west of Glasgow, all the way to Helensburgh Central and Milngavie. All the 334s need to be perfect on this route would be tables, as they are already having proper air conditioning, WiFi and power sockets fitted.

 

[jingsmonty]

The North berwick branch can't go doo. One train working without train staff is my understanding. Then there's the "no extension to doo" but I'm not getting into that again.

Afraid the Dalreoch to Balloch branch is One Train Working Without Staff, but has been D.O.O. since the early '80s

 

[170401]

Sounds like they'll at least need to provide Door Control panels on the AT200s for the North Berwick operation then.

Check out section 7.3 of page 323 in this document -

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...Redacted Franchise Agreement - CU version.pdf


Transport Scotland is pushing the 'Driver controlled operation' (not Doo) as a means to speeding up station dwell times (Somewhere guards have shot themselves in the foot over the years). The AT200 stock will come set up deliberately so that it is impossible for anyone other than the driver to control the doors whilst in normal operation.

 

[cf111]

Yes, part of franchise agreement I think.

100% correct 156/158/170. EMU 380s..

Do Guards work the 380s all the time or only between Central and Waverley? The last time I was on one was about a year ago, before the Ayr-Edinburgh services were introduced anyway, and I didn't see a Guard.

 

[clc]

So it seems likely the plan is for AT200s to take over from 380s on at least some of the North Berwick, Dunbar, Carstairs and Lanark routes to cascade 380s to Airdrie - Bathgate, 334s to North Clyde and 318s to Cathcart or something similar to that.

So my line remains bottom of the food chain. Drat!

 

[telstarbox]

Is this the first and last time the word "butterbeer" will appear in a franchise agreement? (paragraph 27.2 - 6)

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is this the first and last time the word "butterbeer" will appear in a franchise agreement? (paragraph 27.2 - 6)

My goodness, you are right. (Page 205 of the PDF, referring to what you get in a £20 'scenic' package on lines like the Kyle Line.)

 

[Scotrail84]

Do Guards work the 380s all the time or only between Central and Waverley? The last time I was on one was about a year ago, before the Ayr-Edinburgh services were introduced anyway, and I didn't see a Guard.

All services to Edinburgh from Glasgow and vice versa on all lines are worked with a guard the only exception being the A-B line which is completely doo operated.

 

[Class 170101]

They are capable of doo yes. They do not operate doo on any service in Scotland other than ecs for the pedants.

So no reason they could in future if Transport Scotland / Abellio decided to do so.

This only applies when operating the doors from the rear cab except when it's too busy you need special authorisation from the control to operate doors from there.

This is for a number of reasons. One being there is no step on the outside of the unit at the cab door, the other reasons I won't go into.

How is this? Anglia and XC guards see 170s into and away from stations from the rear cab?

 

[Kite159]

Interesting to see the trains are started to be de-first branded (mainly on the safety information & thanks for keeping your feet off the seat stickers)

 

[Harry Roberts]

Does anyone know if we'll still be able to get discounted tickets for friends when Abellio take over, something similar to the £6 day rovers we currently enjoy for up to 4 people.

 

[Aictos]

Does anyone know if we'll still be able to get discounted tickets for friends when Abellio take over, something similar to the £6 day rovers we currently enjoy for up to 4 people.

If you're asking as a First employee then no is the simple answer as its a First Group only benefit but no doubt Abellio will offer a alternative.

 

[Scotrail84]

So no reason they could in future if Transport Scotland / Abellio decided to do so.


No cameras or do equipment on services they work.


How is this? Anglia and XC guards see 170s into and away from stations from the rear cab?

Companies have different policies and operational procedures. Trans pennine have to work from rear unless it's an unmanned station. Scotrail must dispatch from vestibule unless it's full and standing and given authority to work from rear. That's all there is to it.

 

[ADRboy]

Interesting to see the trains are started to be de-first branded (mainly on the safety information & thanks for keeping your feet off the seat stickers)

Just about everything being done at the moment. 99% needs to be away for the 1st April.

 

[clc]

Just got an email from Scotrail saying when Abellio take over I'll no longer receive nectar points when booking tickets.

 

[thealexweb]

Just got an email from Scotrail saying when Abellio take over I'll no longer receive nectar points when booking tickets.

Book with Transpennine. Nectar on all purchases, 1% Quidco and free postage

 

[clc]

Book with Transpennine. Nectar on all purchases, 1% Quidco and free postage

I'll look into that thanks.

 

[thealexweb]

I'll look into that thanks.

Also no booking / credit card fees. Its amazing that people actually use the Trainline

 

[SPADTrap]

How is this? Anglia and XC guards see 170s into and away from stations from the rear cab?

Because someone got hurt badly exiting the cab to perform station duties due to the lack of a step! I don't sign 170s nor drive with a guard but fairly certain that's what I heard!

 

[Scotrail84]

Because someone got hurt badly exiting the cab to perform station duties due to the lack of a step! I don't sign 170s nor drive with a guard but fairly certain that's what I heard!

Pure hearsay.

 

[jonnysr]

Interesting to see the trains are started to be de-first branded (mainly on the safety information & thanks for keeping your feet off the seat stickers)

A lot of the trains have been debranded now. Seen a lot of the ones still in First livery now have the "F's" removed along the side. With regard the ScotRail saltired units, most have the "ScotRail is operated by First" stickers removed from the doors. However it looks like a lot of them haven't come off easily and have removed parts of the vinyl now leaving the doors looking patched up. Others seem to have required a lot of elbow grease and now have a visibly different shade of silver where the sticker used to be. So much for just removing the sticker and adding a new one. :roll: