Scotrail HST alternatives?

[Energy]

I'm assuming the 5-car EMU would be using 23m coaches. Does this effectively rule out Stadler's FLIRT?

They haven't specified what length or how many cars per unit yet, only the expected total number of cars and units across the whole phase 1 order.

Often the tender will specify length and capacity, with the number of cars left to the manufacturer.

 

[Vectron383]

Given how often trains are customised for the end customer by Stadler, I don’t think this would be much of a stumbling block- if the coaches are shorter by a few metres they would probably have 6 instead of 5, etc.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The catering is a total shambles. As you say, the biscuits are rarely replenished but I believe that this is because of a chronic lack of catering staff. In my opinion the First Class coaches are being hauled around all day long carrying very few passengers.

The cafe bar again taking up a quarter of the space. Let's face it, they will never be used. A complete and utter waste of money and space.

And not worth spending any more money on them now to rectify this situation

 

[Christmas]

And not worth spending any more money on them now to rectify this situation

Its comical that every preserved railway in the land can effectively utilise the buffet car on MK1 stock, yet this lot struggle with a brand new one.

Those in charge of the HST project really should hang their heads in shame.

 

[43096]

Its comical that every preserved railway in the land can effectively utilise the buffet car on MK1 stock, yet this lot struggle with a brand new one.

Those in charge of the HST project really should hang their heads in shame.

Were they supposed to have a crystal ball that Covid would happen?

 

[John Bishop]

Were they supposed to have a crystal ball that Covid would happen?

Oh come on, COVID has long gone in terms of affecting things like this. It’s just used as an excuse now. COVID has no reason to prevent this being in operation.

 

[chuff chuff]

Indeed,this project has been a bit of a bodge since day one and frankly some of it is embarrassing,to be fair scotrail feels a bit of a bodge.

 

[scotraildriver]

As I said upthread the reason the catering areas aren't being used is because the inverters that Wabtec fitted at refurbishment don't work and they still haven't come up with a viable solution. You can't use the area with no power! The equipment itself has been recommissioned but until Wabtec sort the power issues they can't be used.

 

[43096]

Oh come on, COVID has long gone in terms of affecting things like this. It’s just used as an excuse now. COVID has no reason to prevent this being in operation.

It has caused an ongoing impact to passenger numbers and the railway's income, though.

 

[Christmas]

As I said upthread the reason the catering areas aren't being used is because the inverters that Wabtec fitted at refurbishment don't work and they still haven't come up with a viable solution. You can't use the area with no power! The equipment itself has been recommissioned but until Wabtec sort the power issues they can't be used.

And the customer, ScotRail and Transport Scotland are letting Wabtec Rail get away with it!! Seriously, four years later and they still don't work? Scrap these things at the earliest opportunity.

 

[chuff chuff]

Don't think anyone other than the passenger really cares enough.

 

[Clansman]

I've lost count of the number of times I've been the only person in First Class between Edinburgh and Aberdeen. The HST First is now a complete waste of space, unused for much of the day. Unless of course when it gets invaded by standard passengers who won't move.

Interestingly whenever I've used a HST from Inverness it's more often full than it isn't, and I've also seen it full from Aberdeen to Glasgow some times, and stone dead other times.

Satisfying the Inverness first class demand will always have its trade offs and compromises so long as it makes operational sense to rotate the same stock for Aberdeen services.

If it weren't for covid and the introduction issues I would imagine we would see a more intensive marketing strategy around the I7C brand to try and promote modal shift and disperse demand from LNER services that exists based on quality of the final product, which for first class comes at the same price as ScotRail!

And the customer, ScotRail and Transport Scotland are letting Wabtec Rail get away with it!

If you were Transport Scotland or ScotRail, what would you do differently at this current time?

 

[Christmas]

Interestingly whenever I've used a HST from Inverness it's more often full than it isn't, and I've also seen it full from Aberdeen to Glasgow some times, and stone dead other times.

Satisfying the Inverness first class demand will always have its trade offs and compromises so long as it makes operational sense to rotate the same stock for Aberdeen services.

If it weren't for covid and the introduction issues I would imagine we would see a more intensive marketing strategy around the I7C brand to try and promote modal shift and disperse demand from LNER services that exists based on quality of the final product, which for first class comes at the same price as ScotRail!


If you were Transport Scotland or ScotRail, what would you do differently at this current time?

What would I do differently? Are you being serious? Do you think that the status quo is a long term solution for customers?

I'd insist that they resolved the issues 3 years ago when the buffet cars were supposed to be operating. Nobody can hide behind the COVID smokescreen any longer!

I sincerely hope that the bill hasn't been settled!

 

[The Puddock]

The catering is a total shambles. As you say, the biscuits are rarely replenished but I believe that this is because of a chronic lack of catering staff. In my opinion the First Class coaches are being hauled around all day long carrying very few passengers.

The cafe bar again taking up a quarter of the space. Let's face it, they will never be used. A complete and utter waste of money and space.

It‘s a real pity because in the very brief period that the buffets were being used, they were great. I had hot food a few times and the first class service was excellent. They even sold Inter7City branded souvenirs - the entire stock of which have since been sold off at a discount to staff, believe it or not!

Last time I tried to use the £15 first class upgrade (which is barely advertised, so it’s no surprise that no one does it) between Dundee and Aberdeen, I boarded and sat in first class but the conductor never came round so I couldn’t pay the fee. I asked at the travel centre at Aberdeen but the ticket clerk just looked at me like I was mad and told me not to bother.

 

[Clansman]

What would I do differently? Are you being serious? Do you think that the status quo is a long term solution for customers?

Absolutely being serious. And for the status quo; it's already established that the HSTs are being binned at the end of the decade so long term they are not the solution, and nor do I agree that they should be.

The plan and idea on paper seemed attractive, but the implementation proves that for all their merits that ultimatey they are absolutely done in, and many staff agree.

But they are here, and buffet-or-no-buffet they will be here for the forseeable unless something drastic changes either through ASLEF putting their money where their mouth is or some other external factor that hasn't been considered (RMT, political, etc). ScotRail have no reason outside these to want to get the HSTs away so long as they are being bankrolled the way they are to keep things grinding out until 2030.

So it begs the question, what would you do different? Or is it just a case of spending time ruing the mistakes of the decision to use HSTs and cutting the losses until something new comes in and wishing for an immediate change in the meantime that clearly isn't going to be on the cards anytime soon?

 

[Christmas]

Absolutely being serious. And for the status quo; it's already established that the HSTs are being binned at the end of the decade so long term they are not the solution, and nor do I agree that they should be.

The plan and idea on paper seemed attractive, but the implementation proves that for all their merits that ultimatey they are absolutely done in, and many staff agree.

But they are here, and buffet-or-no-buffet they will be here for the forseeable unless something drastic changes either through ASLEF putting their money where their mouth is or some other external factor that hasn't been considered (RMT, political, etc). ScotRail have no reason outside these to want to get the HSTs away so long as they are being bankrolled the way they are to keep things grinding out until 2030.

So it begs the question, what would you do different? Or is it just a case of spending time ruing the mistakes of the decision to use HSTs and cutting the losses until something new comes in and wishing for an immediate change in the meantime that clearly isn't going to be on the cards anytime soon?

I'd begin a procurement process for a replacement immediately. I'd halt all modifications to HST stock and withdraw them asap, like XC and GWR. In the short term I'd lease further 156 and 158 stock, using the 156 on diagrams that don't require 158s, and get these operating the lightly loaded HST workings. Hardly rocket surgery, and plenty of 158s available.

Politicians and Transport Scotland should butt out and leave the running of the railway to railway people. Sadly, I don't think that there are many people who actually know how to run trains in the management structure at ScotRail.

 

[chuff chuff]

Politicians and Transport Scotland should butt out and leave the running of the railway to railway people. Sadly, I don't think that there are many people who actually know how to run trains in the management structure at ScotRail.

Doesn't matter if they do or not, transport scotland call the shots.

 

[jagardner1984]

There was a point in time where the Scotrail HST project had the potential to cause political damage to those who oversaw it.

The truth is, in the context of so many issues with public services here, even if one of the Papers was to really go to town with the costs and delivery of the project, I’m not even sure it would make much of a political dent now.

For a few busy Summer Saturdays another HST becoming a 2 car 158 will provoke some reasonable annoyance. For most of the time, the lack of biscuit provision or the inadequacies of the doors or the electrics to plug in the microwave will pale into insignificance in the context of the 1 in 7 on an NHS waiting list, or the kids losing yet another week of education to school strikes.

That isn’t to undermine those issues, either on the HST, or the wider public services, it’s just that there isn’t the public appetite for a protracted debate on the finer points of Rail procurement policy (whilst by contrast events at Hatfield / Potters Bar pushed the the finer points of Rail maintenance policy right to the top of the political agenda).

 

[Clansman]

Given how often trains are customised for the end customer by Stadler, I don’t think this would be much of a stumbling block- if the coaches are shorter by a few metres they would probably have 6 instead of 5, etc.

Given the maximum HST formations were meant to be 2 + 6 in the original plans, that'd be the equivilant to an 8-car from what Stadler usually churn out!

Some Jacobs bogies wouldn't go amiss to be fair as the track quality these days is truly awful, notoriously so north of Montrose.

 

[Vectron383]

8-carriage trains, even if they are shorter than usual, would be very welcomed up north I am sure.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

There was a point in time where the Scotrail HST project had the potential to cause political damage to those who oversaw it.

The truth is, in the context of so many issues with public services here, even if one of the Papers was to really go to town with the costs and delivery of the project, I’m not even sure it would make much of a political dent now.

For a few busy Summer Saturdays another HST becoming a 2 car 158 will provoke some reasonable annoyance. For most of the time, the lack of biscuit provision or the inadequacies of the doors or the electrics to plug in the microwave will pale into insignificance in the context of the 1 in 7 on an NHS waiting list, or the kids losing yet another week of education to school strikes.

That isn’t to undermine those issues, either on the HST, or the wider public services, it’s just that there isn’t the public appetite for a protracted debate on the finer points of Rail procurement policy (whilst by contrast events at Hatfield / Potters Bar pushed the the finer points of Rail maintenance policy right to the top of the political agenda).

^^This

No-one cares. Genuinely.

People will grumble about it, it'll bother and inconvenience people. But it's not a big ticket issue.

There hasn't been a buffet service on regular Scotrail trains for years (Decades?) prior to the HSTs. The first class has always been a bit of a joke. The trains have always been a bit inadequate. Over-promising and under-delivering has been a staple of Scottish public services since 2007.

As for the costs - we've spent hundreds of millions on a dubious scheme to keep a shipyard that was owned by an SNP ally in business - screwing over CalMac and our island communities. It's not actually been as big of a scandal as it seems. The overspend on ridiculous, not-fit-for-purpose trains is a non-issue.

A far bigger issue is that the trains are so unsafe the unions threatened to stop working them. The fact that their threat was a political non-issue speaks to how messed up this situation is.

Politically the only thing that matters is that there are trains that run, or a good excuse for why the trains are not running. Whether the trains are HSTs, 158s, or little hand-carts that the passengers have to pump themselves doesn't really matter to a lot of people.

 

[swaldman]

^^This

No-one cares. Genuinely.

People will grumble about it, it'll bother and inconvenience people. But it's not a big ticket issue.

There hasn't been a buffet service on regular Scotrail trains for years (Decades?) prior to the HSTs. The first class has always been a bit of a joke. The trains have always been a bit inadequate. Over-promising and under-delivering has been a staple of Scottish public services since 2007.

As for the costs - we've spent hundreds of millions on a dubious scheme to keep a shipyard that was owned by an SNP ally in business - screwing over CalMac and our island communities. It's not actually been as big of a scandal as it seems. The overspend on ridiculous, not-fit-for-purpose trains is a non-issue.

A far bigger issue is that the trains are so unsafe the unions threatened to stop working them. The fact that their threat was a political non-issue speaks to how messed up this situation is.

Politically the only thing that matters is that there are trains that run, or a good excuse for why the trains are not running. Whether the trains are HSTs, 158s, or little hand-carts that the passengers have to pump themselves doesn't really matter to a lot of people.

Running *reliably* matters politically. AFAIK this isn't too much of an issue to Scotrail right now, but it certainly matters for eg TPE or Avanti (where it affects London-based journalists) and does get some attention.

Running *without overcrowding* is also very important to the people who use the services, but I grant you that nobody else cares. And the people who use Scotrail services outside the central belt are probably not people with much influence.

 

[Davester50]

^^This

No-one cares. Genuinely.

People will grumble about it, it'll bother and inconvenience people. But it's not a big ticket issue.

There hasn't been a buffet service on regular Scotrail trains for years (Decades?) prior to the HSTs. The first class has always been a bit of a joke. The trains have always been a bit inadequate. Over-promising and under-delivering has been a staple of Scottish public services since 2007.

As for the costs - we've spent hundreds of millions on a dubious scheme to keep a shipyard that was owned by an SNP ally in business - screwing over CalMac and our island communities. It's not actually been as big of a scandal as it seems. The overspend on ridiculous, not-fit-for-purpose trains is a non-issue.

A far bigger issue is that the trains are so unsafe the unions threatened to stop working them. The fact that their threat was a political non-issue speaks to how messed up this situation is.

Politically the only thing that matters is that there are trains that run, or a good excuse for why the trains are not running. Whether the trains are HSTs, 158s, or little hand-carts that the passengers have to pump themselves doesn't really matter to a lot of people.

Nothing brings down current governments, or causes ministers to be sacked, be it Holyrood, or Westminster.
They just brass neck it out until there's a reshuffle, or internal party coup.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd begin a procurement process for a replacement immediately. I'd halt all modifications to HST stock and withdraw them asap, like XC and GWR.

I wouldn't withdraw them just yet; I wouldn't have withdrawn them at GWR or XC either. For the holiday I had in Scotland earlier this year they were a godsend - more capacity than a single 2-car 158 and seats which are (just about) acceptable for a multi-hour journey (unlike the LNER Azumas, TPE 'Novas' and Avanti's refurbished Pendolinos). The big modification (power doors for the mark 3s) has already been done and I feel strongly that UK taxpayers haven't got their money's worth out of that investment yet. If they really have to go at GWR, then I would send (some or all of) the ex-GWR 'castle sets' north to supplement ScotRail's Inter7City fleet to replace the set lost in the derailment and any vehicles which haven't been delivered by Wabtec - plus maybe lengthen some more (or even all the) 2+4 sets to 2+5 depending on how busy they are.

Scotland has a rail decarbonisation plan intended to deliver an electrified railway to Aberdeen and Inverness by 2035, with the line between the two to follow after. The linked article also states that the I7C HSTs aren't life-expired until 2030 (along with the 158s). I would therefore try to focus on completing either Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen or Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness by 2030 so that one of these two routes can receive new InterCity EMUs in 2030 to replace the HSTs, the other being covered by a mix of 170s (on non-I7C-branded workings) and new bi-mode (electric + whatever is planned for Kyle of Lochalsh etc.) regional express units designed to replace the 158s (these would be the intended long-term stock for the West Highland, Stranraer, Far North and Kyle lines and would look something like a 158, 444 or 442). A follow-on order for more of the InterCity EMUs would follow by 2030 to replace the bi-modes and 170s on the remaining route (Aberdeen or Inverness) when that gets wired, with the bi-modes cascading to Aberdeen-Inverness and to supplement the stock on the famous scenic lines.

In the short term I'd lease further 156 and 158 stock, using the 156 on diagrams that don't require 158s, and get these operating the lightly loaded HST workings. Hardly rocket surgery, and plenty of 158s available.

Plenty of 158s available? Seriously? Then why isn't GWR running all the Cardiff-Penzance and Cardiff-Portsmouth trains with 5-car 158s on every service? And why are TfW 153s and 150s still seen in places like Manchester and Milford Haven, rather than 158s? If there were loads of 158s available then it could be argued that GWR and ScotRail should not have started their mark 3 power-door fittment programmes and instead used 5-car 158 formations (doesn't really work for XC who I assume need the 125mph capability in places) but the fact is there aren't all that many 158s around.

 

[snowball]

Scotland has a rail decarbonisation plan intended to deliver an electrified railway to Aberdeen and Inverness by 2035, with the line between the two to follow after. The linked article also states that the I7C HSTs aren't life-expired until 2030 (along with the 158s). I would therefore I would therefore try to focus on completing either Edinburgh/Glasgow-Aberdeen or Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness by 2030

However, that article is over two years old, and in the last 6-12 months it has become clear, as discussed in the appropriate threads, that the Scottish electrification programme is proceeding much more slowly than was originally planned and hoped, and is slowing down just when it needed to speed up, presumably because of the terrible financial situation of the UK generally and the Scottish government in particular. There has been a notable absence of visible progress on the acquisition of new trains - the most recent information we have is from over a year ago and was discussed at the start of a thread created then:

ScotRail’s New Trains Procurement Programme

An advert for a tender for legal services for the above (https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG455691) gives some more detail on the fleet plan ScotRail Trains (SRT) plans to replace 65% of its train fleet (around 675 carriages) in the period 2027 to...

www.railforums.co.uk

So it is not clear that your plan could succeed on the timescale you suggest.

The first review of the 2020 decarbonisation plan was originally due in spring 2023 and is now planned before the end of the year and referred to as a "refresh", so perhaps the situation will be clearer in 2 or 3 months, but not necessarily much brighter than it seems today.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Polish IC FLIRT

I Googled that and it gave me images of several very different train types - but some of them look promising. Combine elements of some of those designs (most-notably the single-width doors, rather than the space-wasting double doors seen on the UK FLIRTs) with the FLIRT UK nosecone design (I think the 745, 755, 756 and 231 all have the same shape cab/nose, correct me if I'm wrong) and make them as long as the platforms at Glasgow Queen Street (assuming this is the limiting factor) allow and you might be on to something - but need at least one full route with OHLE first.

The problem with Stadler is the wasted space from the power packs. A bi-modal MU with underfloor engines would be better in that regard. The engines can also be replaced in future with battery packs, hydrogen tanks, or whatever.

A big reason for using existing stock for the IC service was that the electrification plans were being thought of, and they didn't want to be stuck with unsuitable stock after the electrification strategy was finalised. Using existing stock, which has a shorter lifespan, sidesteps that issue

It is important to remember that the whole Inter7City network is suppose to be wired at some point (although no date has been given for most of Aberdeen-Inverness). Therefore, we shouldn't really be considering new diesel stock for I7C, it should be straight EMUs (or possibly rakes of coaches with driving trailers (similarly to TPE's mark 5s) with electric locos to push/pull them) which would mean no diesel engines to find space for. Unfortunately the current ScotRail HST stop-gap fleet is end-of-life in 2030, while wires are unlikely to have reached both Aberdeen and Inverness before 2035.

I would suggest a common base design regional/intercity (with single-width doors etc.) is used for the scenic routes and I7C with the regional version having fewer coaches (maybe 3 per unit), power pack modules for off-wire use and 385/377-style cabs for multiple working. The I7C units would be maybe 7 coaches long (one with a buffet counter perhaps) and would have pointy noses (UK-FLIRT style as noted above) and would not be planned for use in multiple. Given the later date of planned electrification between Aberdeen and Inverness and (I'm assuming) lower demand then Edinburgh/Glasgow workings I would suggest that the 'regional' units also be used between Aberdeen and Inverness, potentially allowing reduced weight once Aberdeen-Inverness gets wired by putting less fuel in and interworking Far North and Kyle diagrams with Aberdeen-Inverness so they have less off-wire mileage to burn fuel in each diagram.

Yes. The low-floor arrangement and gap fillers are unquestionably of huge value

Gap fillers yes - the only drawback to them I can see is delayed door release while the gap filler slides out - makes passengers on board wonder whether pressing the door button has actually worked. Low-floor arangements however are less clear cut - I would suggest the aim should be to get the floor level as close as possible to the UK standard platform height (915mm was it? I can't remember for sure) while still having a level floor inside including over the wheels/bogies.

Or passengers, if the interior of the 80x was to a decent standard, e.g. using the TfW seat cushion for Sophias or the alternative seat used by Lumo and Avanti. They're old and unreliable, and it shows.

I've not been on Lumo, but coming back from Scotland I had an Avanti Voyager from Glasgow to Carlisle (it was during engineering work so diverted), then a 397 (I think as far as Preston), then a refurbished Avanti Pendolino to Crewe and finally a TfW unit. Other than the TfW unit (I forget whether it was a 150 or a pair of 153s), the only one with decently padded seats was the Voyager. The seat used by Avanti was not a noticeable improvent over the awful Sophias in the TPE unit in my opinion. I've only had a few minutes on the TfW version of the Sophias on the 197s (I've had just one 197 trip, which was Shrewsbury to Wem) so have not been able to give them a meaningful comparison to the Sophias on GWR and TPE but my first impression of the TfW Sophia is not good and unlikely to be any different to GWR's.

However, that article is over two years old, and in the last 6-12 months it has become clear, as discussed in the appropriate threads, that the Scottish electrification programme is proceeding much more slowly than was originally planned and hoped, and is slowing down just when it needed to speed up, presumably because of the terrible financial situation of the UK generally and the Scottish government in particular. There has been a notable absence of visible progress on the acquisition of new trains - the most recent information we have is from over a year ago and was discussed at the start of a thread created then:

ScotRail’s New Trains Procurement Programme

An advert for a tender for legal services for the above (https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG455691) gives some more detail on the fleet plan ScotRail Trains (SRT) plans to replace 65% of its train fleet (around 675 carriages) in the period 2027 to...

www.railforums.co.uk

So it is not clear that your plan could succeed on the timescale you suggest.

The first review of the 2020 decarbonisation plan was originally due in spring 2023 and is now planned before the end of the year and referred to as a "refresh", so perhaps the situation will be clearer in 2 or 3 months, but not necessarily much brighter than it seems today.

Indeed, the suituation does not look good. It remains the case however that building new diesel trains now would give the Government a further excuse to delay much-needed electrification (and decarbonisation in general) because said new train would not reach end-of-life before 2060. It is my view that new bi-mode regional trains (something similar to a 158/159/442/444 with unit-end-gangways and a 100-110mph top speed) are a necessary evil because there are far too many trains in that category reaching end-of-life before we can get anywhere near enough wires up. However, with higher-speed (eg. 125mph) intercity (HST) stock we already have a large number of bi-mode 80x in existance (or on-order) and routes which have justfied investment in higher linespeeds should also be towards the front of the queue for electrification, so we shouldn't build any more and make do with what we have (though I guess ScotRail doesn't actually need the extra speed, so could use regional units you'd just be losing the nosecones and buffets in favour of end-gangways and multiple working of shorter units).

 

[snowball]

Highly relevant to the last two posts above, this new report from Audit Scotland has just been linked in the Haymarket-Dalmeny thread:

Investing in Scotland's infrastructure | Audit Scotland

The Scottish Government no longer expects to have enough money to deliver all its planned £26 billion investment in public sector infrastructure.

www.audit-scotland.gov.uk

The Scottish Government no longer expects to have enough money to deliver all its planned
£26 billion investment in public sector infrastructure.
Growing the economy and delivering high quality public services relies on infrastructure like
roads, railways, hospitals and other buildings. But a combination of reduced capital budgets,
higher costs and increased maintenance requirements have left ministers with difficult decisions
to make on prioritising capital spending. This includes stopping or pausing planned projects.
The Scottish Government’s investment plan focuses on driving inclusive economic growth,
enabling the transition to net-zero emissions, and building resilient and sustainable places. But
it is not always clear how the Scottish Government is directing funding to these three
infrastructure investment priorities, or how they will contribute to reducing greenhouse gases.
Better data on the condition, occupancy and cost of the wider public estate is needed to ensure
buildings are used more efficiently as part of Scottish Government plans to reform public
services.
Stephen Boyle, Auditor General for Scotland, said:
“Scottish Government spending decisions on infrastructure will affect public services, and
ministers need to be transparent about how they are made.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I Googled that and it gave me images of several very different train types - but some of them look promising.

There's only one. Perhaps you also saw the Polish built "cheap imitation", the PESA DART?

Combine elements of some of those designs (most-notably the single-width doors, rather than the space-wasting double doors seen on the UK FLIRTs) with the FLIRT UK nosecone design (I think the 745, 755, 756 and 231 all have the same shape cab/nose, correct me if I'm wrong) and make them as long as the platforms at Glasgow Queen Street (assuming this is the limiting factor) allow and you might be on to something - but need at least one full route with OHLE first.

No reason a bi-mode version couldn't run on diesel throughout to start.

It is important to remember that the whole Inter7City network is suppose to be wired at some point (although no date has been given for most of Aberdeen-Inverness). Therefore, we shouldn't really be considering new diesel stock for I7C, it should be straight EMUs (or possibly rakes of coaches with driving trailers (similarly to TPE's mark 5s) with electric locos to push/pull them) which would mean no diesel engines to find space for. Unfortunately the current ScotRail HST stop-gap fleet is end-of-life in 2030, while wires are unlikely to have reached both Aberdeen and Inverness before 2035.

Thus, a bi-mode is needed. With Stadler you could have the power modules and take them out once no longer needed.

Gap fillers yes - the only drawback to them I can see is delayed door release while the gap filler slides out - makes passengers on board wonder whether pressing the door button has actually worked. Low-floor arangements however are less clear cut - I would suggest the aim should be to get the floor level as close as possible to the UK standard platform height (915mm was it? I can't remember for sure) while still having a level floor inside including over the wheels/bogies.

Level boarding is VERY clear cut - it provides the ability for wheelchair users to board unassisted. This is such a major gain that I think it should be legally mandated for all new stock even if it does mean stepped/ramped interiors.

The standard UK platform is 915mm, the FLIRTs have a 960mm floor, the difference is to allow for the "slot" the step goes in - it's impossible to do perfectly level, what you get is a couple of slight steps up of 2cm each, roughly, which a standard wheelchair can easily be navigated over.

I've not been on Lumo, but coming back from Scotland I had an Avanti Voyager from Glasgow to Carlisle (it was during engineering work so diverted), then a 397 (I think as far as Preston), then a refurbished Avanti Pendolino to Crewe and finally a TfW unit. Other than the TfW unit (I forget whether it was a 150 or a pair of 153s), the only one with decently padded seats was the Voyager.

I guess you're fairly short? The advantage of the new seat is that it adds a couple of inches of legroom without reducing capacity by way of a sensible back design recognising that (a) it's generally men that are tall, and (b) most men can't comfortably sit with their knees jammed together - basically very similar to the Class 175/180 seat in most ways. And unlike the original Sophia you can't feel the supporting metal bar through the cushion. It is a much better design for this purpose than the FISA LEAN, which makes the error of thinking men can comfortably sit with legs together, just as the original Voyager/Pendolino seat and the Class 158 seat does - to optimise for big, tall males (who are by far the majority of big, tall people) you need the support in the middle and the space at the sides!

 

[Wynd]

Highly relevant to the last two posts above, this new report from Audit Scotland has just been linked in the Haymarket-Dalmeny thread:

Investing in Scotland's infrastructure | Audit Scotland

The Scottish Government no longer expects to have enough money to deliver all its planned £26 billion investment in public sector infrastructure.

www.audit-scotland.gov.uk

Less than a day after 500m barrels of oil are approved to be extracted, it hits home pretty hard.

Makes me wonder what is going to be cut. Borders electrification is already paused, isnt it?

 

[snowball]

Makes me wonder what is going to be cut. Borders electrification is already paused, isnt it?

Barrhead is virtually completed. East Kilbride was recently announced as going ahead, completion end 2025. As far as we can tell Levenmouth will reopen in 2024 with all piling done but no actual masts up. The audit report mentions Borders as paused. Fife appears to have been paused but no announcement has been made. This list accounts for everything in what was called phase 1 of the programme.

The contract for six feeder stations needed for phase 1 appears to be continuing.

Beyond phase 1, on the Aberdeen route, two overbridges north of Dundee have been replaced and two others demolished without replacement.

Possibly Fife will restart when EK is approaching completion, so that there will be one scheme going at any time?

Nothing has been heard for ages on rolling stock.