Scotrail HST alternatives?

[WideRanger]

Longer term, contracts are already being prepared for the tendering process for new builds going forward.

While the HST project and ScotRail's whole 'rail revolution' is very much ditched in this post-covid world, it is still realistic to expect that Transport Scotland may still wish to go down the bespoke route, rather than to want to go for something that is just another knocked-off by extension order of another classs of train (such as the 745s or IETs). The core project for the HSTs - as much as it was drafted and proposed by those favourable towards them - was as much about providing a premium product for intercity services with a uniquely Scottish marketable tinge.

For replacing the HSTs as a stop gap until that point, it has gotten to the stage where anything would be on the table if the numbers were right should the need arise to bin the HSTs before the new procurements.

The most realistic solution I can see is for ScotRail to extend the lease of the 156s displaced by East Kilbride and Barrhead electrification ~2024/25 and absorb them around Fife and the Borders on routes crewed solely by Waverley drivers/guards. Or recasting the timetable to temporarily remove Montrose services and reducing Arbroath services to release another few units.

This solution releases enough 158s and 170s for replacing the HSTs without the need for another fleet cascade, and it minimises costs and the general operational mumbo-jumbo that the HSTs have plagued ScotRail with which would reoccur again with a fleet cascade from down south (the inevitable 2 year phased introduction while 7 depots train up on them, to name an example).

I can only see 222s coming in if there is no other alternative rather than being a leading option, and even then focused not on the entire intercity network but limited solely to Aberdeen and the central belt to quicken the introduction.

Certainly ScotRail would be looking in house before looking outwardly. And in the case of the former, the options are there.

If this were a solution, could 153s (either the modified ones Scotrail already has, or ones currently in storage) take over the less busy routes such as Stranraar and Kyle of Lochalsh, thereby freeing up a few more 156s / 158s, for something like the above? I realise it would probably be unpopular, but it would be more of a class that Scotrail already uses.

 

[swaldman]

If this were a solution, could 153s (either the modified ones Scotrail already has, or ones currently in storage) take over the less busy routes such as Stranraar and Kyle of Lochalsh, thereby freeing up a few more 156s / 158s, for something like the above? I realise it would probably be unpopular, but it would be more of a class that Scotrail already uses.

3+ hours on a 153 is something that nobody should be forced to endure

(I am aware that people in and around Wales currently are)

 

[Energy]

There's no way any company could justify building a factory in Scotland for such a small order - even if just for final assembly of components made elsewhere. They *might* just be able to have it make sense to do interior fit-out at an existing works (e.g. Brodies).

Talgo have been talking about a Scottish factory for a while with the condition being a major order (not necessarily from Scotland) with Talgo believing that non UK orders will keep it busy.

 

[RailWonderer]

Talgo have been talking about a Scottish factory for a while with the condition being a major order (not necessarily from Scotland) with Talgo believing that non UK orders will keep it busy.

If they intend to build non-UK rolling stock they better locate near a port because they'll be needing cranes to airlift coaches onto ships. Did they specifically state they would do non-UK orders in the UK? If so it would make them the first manufacturer to do so.

 

[chuff chuff]

There was talk of the factory being built on the site of the demolished Longannet power station,this has being going round for a fair bit of time now,time I would say is running very short of they hope to meet the target.

 

[najaB]

There was talk of the factory being built on the site of the demolished Longannet power station,this has being going round for a fair bit of time now,time I would say is running very short of they hope to meet the target.

With Rosyth being not that far away and a not-long disused rail connection too.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I am sorry if it's been mentioned elsewhere but can someone tell me what the current stigging plaster solution of HST mods is and how long they will take? The solution presented above earlier of a fleet shuffle caused by electrification seems like a sensible one, whilst I don't approve of the 170 and would not be using them it would allow HST to be binned off quickly and cheaply, perhaps the fleets that we're going to be dedicated to intercity work could have a refurbishment to give a little bit more quality in the likes of seating and maybe some sound proofing? A few internal doors on the 170 wouldn't be and welcome either given the fact that at many a Highland station half the side of the train disappears and lets in the elements

Would the proposed diesel shuffle allow booked six car workings on a regular basis to the likes of Inverness? This capacity is needed badly

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If they intend to build non-UK rolling stock they better locate near a port because they'll be needing cranes to airlift coaches onto ships. Did they specifically state they would do non-UK orders in the UK? If so it would make them the first manufacturer to do so.

Well, the first for quite a long time... there's been Electrostars built in Derby for South Africa, the Thai 158-derivatives, and going back a bit further the various locomotives built for such exotic places as Cuba, Poland and Portugal.

 

[Chester1]

Well, the first for quite a long time... there's been Electrostars built in Derby for South Africa, the Thai 158-derivatives, and going back a bit further the various locomotives built for such exotic places as Cuba, Poland and Portugal.

I believe Hitachi finished a metro order using Newton Aycliffe and CAF in Newport will switch entirely to export work once their TfW units are finished this summer. I have never thought Talgo will build a factory without a large marque UK order like Siemens tube order and Goole. Scottish HST replacement order wouldn’t be anywhere near big enough.

 

[PG]

I have never thought Talgo will build a factory without a large marque UK order like Siemens tube order and Goole. Scottish HST replacement order wouldn’t be anywhere near big enough.

Well they were fishing for the HS2 order so no, no way would a Scottish HST replacement order be anywhere near enough to justify opening a factory. Not unless they start a new trend in pop-up factories...

 

[Chester1]

Well they were fishing for the HS2 order so no, no way would a Scottish HST replacement order be anywhere near enough to justify opening a factory. Not unless they start a new trend in pop-up factories...

The UK train manufacturing market is already going to struggle without a fifth factory. We have Alstom Derby, Hitachi Newton Aycliffe, Siemens Goole and CAF Newport. HS2 will keep Derby and Newton Aycliffe open but not with current staffing levels. I don't think Siemens has even started on its tube order yet. CAF is just about to finish its last British order but has no plans for redundancy so the export plans must be firm.

I think its irrelevant though, with current financial constraints I bet HSTs are replaced with off least units.

 

[PG]

I think its irrelevant though, with current financial constraints I bet HSTs are replaced with off least units.

I concur, we may find out sooner than expected given recent postings in the thread aslef-circular-to-members-on-legacy-traction-and-its-safety

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

That might be overkill on the number of seats, no?

Better that than not enough seats!

 

[najaB]

Better that than not enough seats!

True. But money spent on extra seats and on hauling them around empty is money that can't be spent on anything else.

 

[gingertom]

Longer term, contracts are already being prepared for the tendering process for new builds going forward.

While the HST project and ScotRail's whole 'rail revolution' is very much ditched in this post-covid world, it is still realistic to expect that Transport Scotland may still wish to go down the bespoke route, rather than to want to go for something that is just another knocked-off by extension order of another classs of train (such as the 745s or IETs). The core project for the HSTs - as much as it was drafted and proposed by those favourable towards them - was as much about providing a premium product for intercity services with a uniquely Scottish marketable tinge.

For replacing the HSTs as a stop gap until that point, it has gotten to the stage where anything would be on the table if the numbers were right should the need arise to bin the HSTs before the new procurements.

The most realistic solution I can see is for ScotRail to extend the lease of the 156s displaced by East Kilbride and Barrhead electrification ~2024/25 and absorb them around Fife and the Borders on routes crewed solely by Waverley drivers/guards. Or recasting the timetable to temporarily remove Montrose services and reducing Arbroath services to release another few units.

This solution releases enough 158s and 170s for replacing the HSTs without the need for another fleet cascade, and it minimises costs and the general operational mumbo-jumbo that the HSTs have plagued ScotRail with which would reoccur again with a fleet cascade from down south (the inevitable 2 year phased introduction while 7 depots train up on them, to name an example).

I can only see 222s coming in if there is no other alternative rather than being a leading option, and even then focused not on the entire intercity network but limited solely to Aberdeen and the central belt to quicken the introduction.

Certainly ScotRail would be looking in house before looking outwardly. And in the case of the former, the options are there.

wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the units displaced by the Barrhead/East Kilbride electrification were sent off-lease to save revenue, instead of @Clansman's sensible and workable suggestion.

 

[43096]

wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the units displaced by the Barrhead/East Kilbride electrification were sent off-lease to save revenue, instead of @Clansman's sensible and workable suggestion.

I think you mean to save cost rather than revenue. Whatever, any trains coming in to replace the HSTs before 2030 are going to be a big increase in cost: paying for two sets of trains for the same workings is not cheap.

 

[snowball]

When Levenmouth opens, will it require any DMUs displaced from Barrhead, or will those currently operating the Fife circle be enough?

 

[SC318250]

When Levenmouth opens, will it require any DMUs displaced from Barrhead, or will those currently operating the Fife circle be enough?

Apologies if this is off topic

I forgot about Levenmouth

Probably going to depend what happens with various timetables.
I know Scotrail were talking about more services in December on Inverclyde and Ayrshire, especially an improved evening service.

That aside

Barrhead at moment is one per hour, so I suspect it will be a 380/1. Which in turn will probably be replaced on Ayrshire services by 2x380/0 or the North Berwick 380/1.

Which would then require either

2 x 380/0 replaced by 2x318/320
Or the 380/1 replaced by a 385/1 or 2x 385/0

At moment there is plenty of spare units, however I suspect Barrhead might go half hourly by 2 x 380/0, with Paisley Canal going to 318/320 operation

Back to HST
If agreement cant be reached to extend HST operations, then I wonder if more 158s from Wales will come in, if 222 dont come up

Hopefully an agreement/compromise can be reached, as by refusing to drive HST could result in customers being put off rail travel… we need a win win situation for both the union and the passenger

 

[Blindtraveler]

Part of the issue here and it's raised in the post above is that successive Scott Rail management teams don't seem to grasp the fact that a 170, at the best a regional express unit is laughably inadequate for services to the Highlands with a journey time of almost four hours on the slowest workings. Yes I know they were new and exciting when they were first introduced but they are not the right type of train for this service and many passengers who've endured multiple journeys or even cases just one on these crapululous trains have found other ways of doing the journey now. The coach companies have got the market well and truly sussed out and not only offer faster journey times but better onboard facilities in some cases

The situation we now have is a very difficult juggling act in my view, the drivers don't want to drive the replacement intercity stock and in many ways I can't say I blame them, the replacement alternative is to simply go back to how things were done previously with 170s, a sad sad situation when despite their speed and power limitations a one five eight offers a better customer experience in many ways. I suppose the only way of solving this is if all of a sudden the leasing company turned around and offered them a particularly attractive early termination fee, given that since the lease agreement was signed back at the end of the last decade scrap value has gone through the roof and they might not do too badly selling them to whoever wants to cut them up and that will be the end of it

A 158 shuffle could then take place with g w r taking whatever they wanted of the Welsh ones with Perkins engines and the existing vwr Cummins examples being sent north of the border. You can then run permanent fixed six car working of CL 158 on Highland and Aberdeen services possibly with a new interior and maybe if someone could be persuaded to pay for it a new air conditioning and climate control system similar to that found in the swr159 or even a basic replacement for air chill like on the Chiltern turbo



Get enough of them and the Dumfries Carlisle Glasgow central and the whl could also be converted

 

[RobShipway]

Part of the issue here and it's raised in the post above is that successive Scott Rail management teams don't seem to grasp the fact that a 170, at the best a regional express unit is laughably inadequate for services to the Highlands with a journey time of almost four hours on the slowest workings. Yes I know they were new and exciting when they were first introduced but they are not the right type of train for this service and many passengers who've endured multiple journeys or even cases just one on these crapululous trains have found other ways of doing the journey now. The coach companies have got the market well and truly sussed out and not only offer faster journey times but better onboard facilities in some cases

The situation we now have is a very difficult juggling act in my view, the drivers don't want to drive the replacement intercity stock and in many ways I can't say I blame them, the replacement alternative is to simply go back to how things were done previously with 170s, a sad sad situation when despite their speed and power limitations a one five eight offers a better customer experience in many ways. I suppose the only way of solving this is if all of a sudden the leasing company turned around and offered them a particularly attractive early termination fee, given that since the lease agreement was signed back at the end of the last decade scrap value has gone through the roof and they might not do too badly selling them to whoever wants to cut them up and that will be the end of it

A 158 shuffle could then take place with g w r taking whatever they wanted of the Welsh ones with Perkins engines and the existing vwr Cummins examples being sent north of the border. You can then run permanent fixed six car working of CL 158 on Highland and Aberdeen services possibly with a new interior and maybe if someone could be persuaded to pay for it a new air conditioning and climate control system similar to that found in the swr159 or even a basic replacement for air chill like on the Chiltern turbo



Get enough of them and the Dumfries Carlisle Glasgow central and the whl could also be converted

I cannot see that you will get enough class 158 units from the TFW Cummins units to replace all the HST sets that Scotrail have within their fleet. You have to remember that have TFW have 24 Class 158 units in total, how many of those are Cummins units? Scotrail have 26 HST sets. So you would if you are lucky be only replacing half those sets, with the Cummins class 158 units. You would probably be needing to send up the class 175 units from TFW as well, as the Cummins class 158 units to be able to cover the 26 HST sets.

You also have to remember that some of the issue with travelling to the Highlands, is down to the linespeed of some of the routes, due to where they where built. The Coaching companies, do not have this issue as I believe that the roads have been built on less dangerous lands which are flatter, which was not available to the railway line builders, when the highland lines where built back in the 1800's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the issue here and it's raised in the post above is that successive Scott Rail management teams don't seem to grasp the fact that a 170, at the best a regional express unit is laughably inadequate for services to the Highlands with a journey time of almost four hours on the slowest workings. Yes I know they were new and exciting when they were first introduced but they are not the right type of train for this service and many passengers who've endured multiple journeys or even cases just one on these crapululous trains have found other ways of doing the journey now.

170s are absolutely fine. Just a single unit isn't enough. A pair would be great, even better with a gangway (such a shame they were built without). The main problem with 170s across the network is that there could have done with being roughly twice as many built and all 3 car sets (and maybe some 4s which would be good for the Scottish IC services). Or indeed had Chiltern been wired sooner we'd have all theirs in circulation too, which probably would mean enough.

Comfortable seats at decent spacing, excellent window views, excellent alignment, doors at quarters for easy circulation and despite being DMUs much quieter inside than 15x, particularly 158s which have a horrible ear-splitting transmission whine that echoes through the saloon. A bit cheap in materials terms (but better than the CAF units). I've had some lovely rides on the Highland Mainline and via Aberdeen on them.

To be fair they could order some Civities to get something very similar, either in 4 or 5 car sets. If you combined the best of the 196 and 197 (think 196 style decoration and lighting, but a more 197 like layout, and perhaps even a more premium seat) you could get something very, very good. They could then be cascaded to the more rural lines when the HML is electrified. Not low floor, but these will always have guards anyway so assistance isn't the big issue it is on DOO routes or very long trains like Pendolinos.

The coach companies have got the market well and truly sussed out and not only offer faster journey times but better onboard facilities in some cases

I've also done a Megabus along the route and it was beyond grim, never again. 2+2 in a 2.5m wide vehicle is just too narrow, and legroom is usually poor too.

 

[jagardner1984]

I've also done a Megabus along the route and it was beyond grim, never again. 2+2 in a 2.5m wide vehicle is just too narrow, and legroom is usually poor too.

A genuine observation when it comes to passenger comfort on rail or road is …. Height.

I’m 6ft2 and would agree with you on the Megabus of Misery. My 5ft4 friend doesn’t know what I’m talking about !

Generally I think on journeys of a couple of hours or more - passenger comfort is not talked about nearly enough and perhaps the “ram them in” approach of the last decade will be in the past. We live in hope !

The Highland Mainline has so much breathtaking scenery - it’s rather unfortunate to see it only from sitting in a full and standing 170 luggage rack.

 

[Trainbike46]

To be fair they could order some Civities to get something very similar, either in 4 or 5 car sets. If you combined the best of the 196 and 197 (think 196 style decoration and lighting, but a more 197 like layout, and perhaps even a more premium seat) you could get something very, very good. They could then be cascaded to the more rural lines when the HML is electrified. Not low floor, but these will always have guards anyway so assistance isn't the big issue it is on DOO routes or very long trains like Pendolinos.

There is no way Scotrail will order new diesel-only trains; If the HSTs are getting replaced, they will either get existing units (from their own fleet or elsewhere). If they order new the units will be ready to be part of Scotrail long-term zero-carbon plans

 

[najaB]

170s are absolutely fine. Just a single unit isn't enough.

I'm with @Blindtraveler on this one - the 170's mid-door layout is fine in the summer, but terrible the rest of the year. Every "We are now approaching..." announcement is accompanied by fevered prayer that nobody wants to board or alight by the nearest set of doors!

Part of the issue here and it's raised in the post above is that successive Scott Rail management teams don't seem to grasp the fact that a 170, at the best a regional express unit is laughably inadequate for services to the Highlands with a journey time of almost four hours on the slowest workings.

I have to disagree here that they haven't grasped the situation. That was the whole point of the HST exercise, to provide a suitable ambiance and level of comfort for longer-distance journeys. On paper they do exactly this and, had the project been better implemented, they would have been a perfectly suited stop-gap measure to tide ScotRail over until they were in the right place to order brand-new bi-modes.

 

[43096]

A 158 shuffle could then take place with g w r taking whatever they wanted of the Welsh ones with Perkins engines and the existing vwr Cummins examples being sent north of the border. You can then run permanent fixed six car working of CL 158 on Highland and Aberdeen services possibly with a new interior and maybe if someone could be persuaded to pay for it a new air conditioning and climate control system similar to that found in the swr159 or even a basic replacement for air chill like on the Chiltern turbo

The ScotRail 158s have already had their air conditioning upgraded to the same Liebherr system as is used on the 159s. The difference is in maintenance: SWT had a rigorous regime in place in line with the supplier’s guidance. Do the other operators?

 

[Blindtraveler]

But that wasn't Scott Rail management. That was transport Scotland who are well-famed for having grandiose ideas that punch way above their actual capability to deliver them. Name me a transport project that they've touched in the last decade or more that hasn't suffered from these issues? The actual day-to-day management team at ScotRail for successive generations have deemed a 170 in a singular form and in many cases without even the first class compartment at one end perfectly suitable for long distance services and indeed first group believed that they were so right that they included them in their bid before the bid was changed to rule them out for stop to be honest I think first group would have retained it had it not been for their lack of vision and ideas for the longer distance work as out of all the people who have held the keys to Scott Rail HQ in the 25 or so years that I have been traveling on the network first group were by far the least offensive and operationally the best

 

[najaB]

The actual day-to-day management team at ScotRail for successive generations have deemed a 170 in a singular form and in many cases without even the first class compartment at one end perfectly suitable for long distance services...

The day-to-day management team have zero say in rolling stock acquisition - that falls firmly within the remit of Transport Scotland.

 

[swaldman]

170s aren't great for long-distance Scottish services, but the single biggest problem with them has been overcrowding. I think most folk would be content, if not happy, if there were just more of them!

 

[Chester1]

I cannot see that you will get enough class 158 units from the TFW Cummins units to replace all the HST sets that Scotrail have within their fleet. You have to remember that have TFW have 24 Class 158 units in total, how many of those are Cummins units? Scotrail have 26 HST sets. So you would if you are lucky be only replacing half those sets, with the Cummins class 158 units. You would probably be needing to send up the class 175 units from TFW as well, as the Cummins class 158 units to be able to cover the 26 HST sets.

You also have to remember that some of the issue with travelling to the Highlands, is down to the linespeed of some of the routes, due to where they where built. The Coaching companies, do not have this issue as I believe that the roads have been built on less dangerous lands which are flatter, which was not available to the railway line builders, when the highland lines where built back in the 1800's.

ScotRail has 120 Mark III coaches formed into 26 sets. At least a couple of the 175s will be stripped for parts and scrapped following the "thermal incidents". They are extremely unreliable and best being scrapped. ScotRail might be desperate enough to take them on though. 24 x 158s is only 48 coaches and GWR will be after some too. Any option apart from new build will involve at least two classes, potentially three.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ScotRail has 120 Mark III coaches formed into 26 sets.

How intensively are they used?