Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[Bikeman78]

But it’s not is it! Still cancellations and short forms of 2 car 158s on IC services most days. Given the age of the fleet, it will never get to that stage, just not possible.

Great Western managed it until last year. Substitutions by other trains were relatively rare. In fact the opposite was true. They often stood in for units.

 

[Railperf]

But it’s not is it! Still cancellations and short forms of 2 car 158s on IC services most days. Given the age of the fleet, it will never get to that stage, just not possible.

as mentioned in an earlier comment, the maintenance situation -partiularly vacancies for maintenance staff -seems to be more of a factor than the age of the units.... and I quote "There was acknowledgement of the high number of vacancies in maintenance staffing and the reasons for this, but it was said that 110 extra roles had been filled by the end of 2023. However it would take until late 2025 / early 2026 until the issues were resolved."
So they sem to be doing better getting 16 diagrams out in early 2024 despite the fact that they expect continued issues for another 2 years.

Great Western managed it until last year. Substitutions by other trains were relatively rare. In fact the opposite was true. They often stood in for units.

GWR had maintenance depots with donkeys years of experience on these things, so maintaining a small fleet wasn't too much of an issue. And there seems to be a bit more love for them in GWR land.

 

[Bikeman78]

GWR had maintenance depots with donkeys years of experience on these things, so maintaining a small fleet wasn't too much of an issue. And there seems to be a bit more love for them in GWR land.

Agreed, but it proves that it can be done if the will is there. It will be very interesting to see how the 175s get on if they go to GWR.

 

[Railperf]

You can easily transfer the trains, but not so much the brains that have years of experience of the nuances of each type of train to keep them going. Look at EMR 360's . Once the most reliable fleet in the country at GA and now struggling at a new TOC without the experienced staff or depot facilities. You cannot blame the product. Seems like ScotRail are getting there with the HST's but still some way to go before there are more trains available than diagrams and where sets can stay reliably all day in service.

 

[Davester50]

So they sem to be doing better getting 16 diagrams out in early 2024 despite the fact that they expect continued issues for another 2 years.

16/25 that they pay for is hardly breathtaking.

 

[Wolfie]

You can easily transfer the trains, but not so much the brains that have years of experience of the nuances of each type of train to keep them going. Look at EMR 360's . Once the most reliable fleet in the country at GA and now struggling at a new TOC without the experienced staff or depot facilities. You cannot blame the product. Seems like ScotRail are getting there with the HST's but still some way to go before there are more trains available than diagrams and where sets can stay reliably all day in service.

The reliability of the 360s was already declining in their last year or so at GA because that company chopped maintenance to the bare minimum on trains that were going.

 

[kkong]

16/25 that they pay for is hardly breathtaking.

The ScotRail Grant Agreement (currently) requires 18/25 HST sets to be available for passenger service ("Fleet Availability Requirement") at any time.

Also: "SRT shall plan during each day of the Timetable to operate the Train Fleet to satisfy the Fleet Availability Requirement allocating surplus units as Hot Standbys to support delivery of robust and reliable Passenger Services".

 

[bluesfromagun]

They've always had good spells and bad spells, availability wise with ScotRail. I've had whole diagrams that were booked HSTs and every train has been a unit.
That said, the past month or so I've not had a unit covering for an HST once. I've maybe just been lucky, but I do have a sense that they've finally recognised that they need to improve the availability and that they put a plan together to do this. Four OOS power cars are currently off getting returned to traffic, at Loughborough / Kilmarnock, and there's a programme of modifications for this summer including upgrading the WSP system. To give you a sense of how big a deal that is, 43128 has never worked a revenue earning service since coming to ScotRail, and now its getting returned to service after years of being used to provide spares for the rest of the fleet. Two ex LNER power cars have been obtained to spares donors to get 128 (and 169) back into service.
I suspect the reason for this is twofold - they looked at options for replacing the HSTs and found nothing suitable (meridian sets need a refurb, ex TPE mk5 sets are too small a fleet to cover the work). On top of this, Leven opens in June and that stretches an already intensely used DMU fleet about as far as it can possibly go.
I think on the back of these realities, they've decided to spend a few quid and improve the availability of the HST fleet.

 

[Railperf]

They've always had good spells and bad spells, availability wise with ScotRail. I've had whole diagrams that were booked HSTs and every train has been a unit.
That said, the past month or so I've not had a unit covering for an HST once. I've maybe just been lucky, but I do have a sense that they've finally recognised that they need to improve the availability and that they put a plan together to do this. Four OOS power cars are currently off getting returned to traffic, at Loughborough / Kilmarnock, and there's a programme of modifications for this summer including upgrading the WSP system. To give you a sense of how big a deal that is, 43128 has never worked a revenue earning service since coming to ScotRail, and now its getting returned to service after years of being used to provide spares for the rest of the fleet. Two ex LNER power cars have been obtained to spares donors to get 128 (and 169) back into service.
I suspect the reason for this is twofold - they looked at options for replacing the HSTs and found nothing suitable (meridian sets need a refurb, ex TPE mk5 sets are too small a fleet to cover the work). On top of this, Leven opens in June and that stretches an already intensely used DMU fleet about as far as it can possibly go.
I think on the back of these realities, they've decided to spend a few quid and improve the availability of the HST fleet.

Not only that, but they finally have recruited enough staff to do it. You can't repair and maintain trains unless you have suitably trained people to do it. Cue my local garage with 2 people in it can only service a few cars a day, whereas a major national repair co with 20 bays and enough staff to man them can get theough many many more! And of course you do need the spares - which probably very few are off-the-shelf nowadays!

 

[Killingworth]

Not only that, but they finally have recruited enough staff to do it. You can't repair and maintain trains unless you have suitably trained people to do it. Cue my local garage with 2 people in it can only service a few cars a day, whereas a major national repair co with 20 bays and enough staff to man them can get theough many many more! And of course you do need the spares - which probably very few are off-the-shelf nowadays!

I can't help wondering how those exported to Mexico and Nigeria will manage given there has been so much difficulty keeping a much larger fleet in action. Subject for other threads.

 

[Justin Smith]

Sorry to use this thread for a slightly different question, but as at today how many HSTs are still in service in the UK ?
I must confess I have not read all 22 pages of this thread, can anyone remind us when the last HST in UK use is due to be with drawn ?
Thanks.

 

[Boff]

Sorry to use this thread for a slightly different question, but as at today how many HSTs are still in service in the UK ?
I must confess I have not read all 22 pages of this thread, can anyone remind us when the last HST in UK use is due to be with drawn ?
Thanks.

There are 15 sets timetabled for use (occasionally 16 as they are sometimes used to fill in for other stock). There may be an increase in future timetable changes to allow for other DMU stock to be cascaded to the new Levenmouth rail link. If you want to see the exact services that HSTs run there's a list here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/first-class (though bare in mind the units are still quite prone to failure, so there's always a chance a 170/158 will turn up).

The HSTs are leased to Scotrail until 2030 (the lease states they have to keep them till 2030), although ASLEF is trying to rid of them as soon as possible. Though there's no replacement stock in sight, so it could also be longer...

 

[Justin Smith]

There are 15 sets timetabled for use (occasionally 16 as they are sometimes used to fill in for other stock). There may be an increase in future timetable changes to allow for other DMU stock to be cascaded to the new Levenmouth rail link. If you want to see the exact services that HSTs run there's a list here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/first-class (though bare in mind the units are still quite prone to failure, so there's always a chance a 170/158 will turn up).

The HSTs are leased to Scotrail until 2030 (the lease states they have to keep them till 2030), although ASLEF is trying to rid of them as soon as possible. Though there's no replacement stock in sight, so it could also be longer...

Thanks.
So all the GWR sets have gone then ?

I obviously think it is utterly ludicrous to call HSTs "dangerous" for the drivers. I suspect the drivers are at well over 10X as much risk being killed driving to work than they are driving an HST.....

 

[The exile]

Thanks.
So all the GWR sets have gone then ?

I obviously think it is utterly ludicrous to call HSTs "dangerous" for the drivers. I suspect the drivers are at well over 10X as much risk being killed driving to work than they are driving an HST.....

No - four diagrams left, IIRC.

 

[Boff]

Thanks.
So all the GWR sets have gone then ?

I obviously think it is utterly ludicrous to call HSTs "dangerous" for the drivers. I suspect the drivers are at well over 10X as much risk being killed driving to work than they are driving an HST.....

Apologies, didn't realise you were talking about HST in general - though in hindsight its obvious!

There 4 diagrams left with GWR, running from Plymouth to Penzance (also I think they occasionally visit Exeter).

Also yes, I agree - there are undoubtedly some factors that may make it less safe than a modern train, but its nowhere near enough to demand the entire removal of the fleet.

 

[Justin Smith]

So, including Scotrail & GWR, are there about 25 sets left in use ?

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we please confine discussion in this thread to Scotrail HSTs. Discussion about GWR HSTs and general HST safety is a matter for other threads.

 

[Justin Smith]

Can we please confine discussion in this thread to Scotrail HSTs. Discussion about GWR HSTs and general HST safety is a matter for other threads.

Which thread should I ask this question on ?

 

[Spaceship323]

Which thread should I ask this question on ?

Diagram here (post #12)

GWR HST Last Services diagrams

I have seen on a few discord servers that the last day of GWR HST service will be the 9TH December 2023, the day before the timetable change. In particular 2C91 Cardiff Central - Bristol Temple Meads. Can anyone confirm or refute this?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[EMU303]

I notice that the HSTs in and out of Glasgow Queen St stop well short of the buffers, more so than any other train type using the station. Anyone know the reason for this?
Thanks in anticipation to someone who knows.

 

[Christmas]

I notice that the HSTs in and out of Glasgow Queen St stop well short of the buffers, more so than any other train type using the station. Anyone know the reason for this?
Thanks in anticipation to someone who knows.

Because of the nature of the braking system and the brakes not actually slowing the train for a good 5 seconds after application. This was all new to drivers who had only driven DMUs and EMUs with instantaneous braking. It was a thought that it would prevent buffer collisions if the trains were stopped further from the buffer. It doesn't impact on the train being in clear at the tail end either.

 

[chuff chuff]

Meant to be ten metres from buffer in station and five in yards,for the above reasons.