Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[hexagon789]

I still find it ridiculous that it was ever considered in the first place to have an HST fleet. Yes, the slightly higher linespeed and faster acceleration is there, and they might be nicer inside, but were the 170s really worse for Scotland's internal routes?

The franchise bid requirements mentioned the perceived better environment of the (then VTEC) HSTs among travellers and thus stated a desire for a more 'InterCity' travel environment.

Abellio offered refurbished HSTs. First offered refurbished 170s, including potential rejigging of interiors to offer more First Class and possibly a micro-buffet (not sure on the latter) and making these sets up to 4-car by removing intermediate cars from the suburban sets.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The franchise bid requirements mentioned the perceived better environment of the (then VTEC) HSTs among travellers and thus stated a desire for a more 'InterCity' travel environment.

It's fair to say that they were much more comfortable inside than the 170s, but I'm really surprised that it was considered viable to refurbish the HSTs, especially with the higher maintenance costs and potential for things to go (very) wrong. I can see the advantage for them on the Highland Main Line where they'd have a massive power advantage over the 170s, but apart from that?

Abellio offered refurbished HSTs. First offered refurbished 170s, including potential rejigging of interiors to offer more First Class and possibly a micro-buffet (not sure on the latter) and making these sets up to 4-car by removing intermediate cars from the suburban sets.

I have to say, refurbished 170s with more first class and being made up to 4-car sets would have done the job fine. I imagine they would've also had the option of running them as 6-car sets too?

 

[BlueLeanie]

I still find it ridiculous that it was ever considered in the first place to have an HST fleet. Yes, the slightly higher linespeed and faster acceleration is there, and they might be nicer inside, but were the 170s really worse for Scotland's internal routes?

A core fleet of of 20 six-car derivatives of the 170 that had end doors would have been the perfect order for Scotrail 20 years ago, along with X number of the standard 170s to run as double or single units for load management.

The middle doors opening at stations isn't ideal in the Chilterns in Winter, it must be wild in Scotland.

 

[Davester50]

The middle doors opening at stations isn't ideal in the Chilterns in Winter, it must be wild in Scotland.

A vastly over-exaggerated problem.

 

[Cowley]

Back on topic please folks.
We don’t need to go over the decision to introduce these trains in the first place.

What we need to be discussing is how things are going 4 years in!

I thank you.

 

[43096]

WSP is being added, as per the 20 April 2023 ScotRail board minutes:

Thanks. I wasn’t aware that work was now in the public domain. It is an upgrade, not an addition, being pedantic - the fleet has had WSP since new.

Hopefully it should reduce the amount of tyre turning needed. Certainly when every operator bar FGW did the WSP upgrade they got significantly extended bogie life, up from 488,000 miles to over 600,000 with some up to 630,000.

 

[Railperf]

Have any power cars been fitted with WSP as yet?

 

[hexagon789]

Have any power cars been fitted with WSP as yet?

I presume you mean the new system, given that, as @43096 touched on, they have had WSP from new?

 

[Railperf]

Yes. Have any been fitted with the new WSP system? Is there a programmed completion date for the fleet?

 

[43096]

Yes. Have any been fitted with the new WSP system?

I'd think not, as it will take time for contracts to be let for both equipment supply and power car fitment. For the equipment supply, Knorr-Bremse will have to procure materials and then manufacture the kits for fitting.

 

[John Bishop]

I'd think not, as it will take time for contracts to be let for both equipment supply and power car fitment. For the equipment supply, Knorr-Bremse will have to procure materials and then manufacture the kits for fitting.

I’d be very surprised if the project goes ahead. With a huge push to get replacement stock in place, it just won’t be financially viable to fit the system for such a short period. Chances are the power cars will be scrapped after their life with SR.

 

[43096]

I’d be very surprised if the project goes ahead. With a huge push to get replacement stock in place, it just won’t be financially viable to fit the system for such a short period. Chances are the power cars will be scrapped after their life with SR.

All the evidence says it is going ahead. Further, the fact that the investment has been authorised would strongly suggest that those hoping the HSTs are being returned early might well be disappointed.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

All the evidence says it is going ahead. Further, the fact that the investment has been authorised would strongly suggest that those hoping the HSTs are being returned early might well be disappointed.

It is going ahead, however interest in the 222s by Scotrail remains high, this may be due to rumoured delays in the electrification thus requiring intercity services to remain diesel for longer. There is no reason other than funding that HST improvements for the short term and 222s slightly longer term have to be mutually exclusive.

The HSTs need works now to keep ASLEF happy and the 222s aren’t expected any time soon.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The HSTs need works now to keep ASLEF happy

I've been reading a lot about ASLEF being unhappy with the HSTs, but what is the nature of their complaints?

 

[John Bishop]

All the evidence says it is going ahead. Further, the fact that the investment has been authorised would strongly suggest that those hoping the HSTs are being returned early might well be disappointed.

Care to share such evidence? When did the authorisation for the works take place? I’m genuinely intrigued. If it does go ahead, it won’t be in time for this years low adhesion season so that another year less of return on investment.

It is going ahead, however interest in the 222s by Scotrail remains high, this may be due to rumoured delays in the electrification thus requiring intercity services to remain diesel for longer. There is no reason other than funding that HST improvements for the short term and 222s slightly longer term have to be mutually exclusive.

The HSTs need works now to keep ASLEF happy and the 222s aren’t expected any time soon.

Yes, but WSP improvements aren’t part of the post Carmont safety improvements which are being pushed for by ASLEF.

 

[43096]

Care to share such evidence? When did the authorisation for the works take place? I’m genuinely intrigued. If it does go ahead, it won’t be in time for this years low adhesion season so that another year less of return on investment.

It was posted up thread in post #508; from the 20 April 2023 ScotRail board minutes.

 

[John Bishop]

It was posted up thread in post #508; from the 20 April 2023 ScotRail board minutes.

Ah, I see. There’s been a heck of a lot of water under the bridge since then, so for me, that doesn’t mean an awful lot.

 

[Dan G]

Right, on *23 March* the ScotRail board approved the replacement of the WSP protection on the class 43s.

The Board discussed the options presented, noted the timescales, costs, and benefits, and approved proceeding with the WSP only options as funded, and requested a review of additional opportunities to improve the HST fleet performance and request any associated additional funding, including the Double Variable Rate Sander (DVRS) option.

Ah, I see. There’s been a heck of a lot of water under the bridge since then, so for me, that doesn’t mean an awful lot.

So without evidence that the WSP replacement has been cancelled, saying only "there's been water under the bridge since then" doesn't mean a lot.

 

[John Bishop]

Right, on *23 March* the ScotRail board approved the replacement of the WSP protection on the class 43s.





So without evidence that the WSP replacement has been cancelled, saying only "there's been water under the bridge since then" doesn't mean a lot.

So I take it as you live in Exeter, you’re not employed by Scotrail and have access to engineering colleagues and ASLEF reps on a daily basis, your assertion on the project is just an assumption then based on what exactly? I’m intrigued!

 

[Dan G]

If you have evidence that the board has cancelled the WSP replacement program please do share it, otherwise we can only go on what is publicly available.

 

[chuff chuff]

It's easy to be at least a little cynical in scotrail probably other tocs too,I only believe anything when I actually see it.

 

[BRX]

With a huge push to get replacement stock in place,

I'm curious what your evidence is for this statement.

 

[T74]

Does anybody know what’s happened to mk3s that was at wabtec Doncaster there’s was a good few in back yard but yday they had gone . Anyone know where to .

 

[Speed43125]

Do we know which sets are still actually with Scotrail? I believe there are 22 (?) sets in Scotland with the rest given up on, but unsure of the numbers.

 

[hexagon789]

Do we know which sets are still actually with Scotrail? I believe there are 22 (?) sets in Scotland with the rest given up on, but unsure of the numbers.

Numbers as in set numbers?

If so:

HA01, 03, 04, 05*, 06*, 07*, 09, 10*, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 24, 25 and 26

(* 2+5 sets)

 

[boabt]

I still find it ridiculous that it was ever considered in the first place to have an HST fleet. Yes, the slightly higher linespeed and faster acceleration is there, and they might be nicer inside, but were the 170s really worse for Scotland's internal routes?

As someone who gets on a HST to commute (nearly) every day, I can tell you my heart sinks a little every time a 170 occasionally turns up instead.

 

[Speed43125]

Numbers as in set numbers?

If so:

HA01, 03, 04, 05*, 06*, 07*, 09, 10*, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 24, 25 and 26

(* 2+5 sets)

Yep, that's great, thank you!

 

[Morayshire]

As someone who gets on a HST to commute (nearly) every day, I can tell you my heart sinks a little every time a 170 occasionally turns up instead.

Could be worse. Could be a 158 instead of a 4/5 coach HST.

 

[hexagon789]

Yep, that's great, thank you!

No problem

 

[snookertam]

I've been reading a lot about ASLEF being unhappy with the HSTs, but what is the nature of their complaints?

One of their members was killed while working an HST at Carmont. They only just pulled back from blacklisting them at the last moment.