ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[notadriver]

Correct but in previous disputes the company has run rules courses for strike breakers drafted in from offices, First Rail Support and Abellio Rail Replacement. To the best of my knowledge that hasn't happened so far and time is running out to do it. I doubt that there will be any trains on anything other than DOO lines as the fully competent managers are just not there in the numbers required to run even a skeleton service for a fortnight. They have their own jobs to do too.

Surely it’s unsafe for First rail support or Abellio rail replacement (essentially bus drivers) doing a 2 day crash course where a conductors rule course takes 4 weeks to compete ?

 

[PupCuff]

4 weeks rules course for conductors seems excessive. The *entire* conductor course at my last TOC was 9 weeks and that incorporated induction, the usual corporate bits and bobs, revenue, a week shadowing, traction, and rules/traction assessments as well as rules. 2 weeks rules is closer to the average I'd say.

Two days seems very short for a conductor rules course, I guess it probably could be done but I wouldn't like to be on it myself, it'd be bloody long days and you'd be hard pressed to find time for a coffee break. Doesn't give much flexibility if someone's struggling either. The precise competence requirements for managers working trains will be set by each train operator and that'll go through the usual safety validation processes, it's generally just rules/route/traction managers do, rather than including revenue and things like that.

 

[notadriver]

So if for example a train operator decides emergency bus drivers (Abellio rail support etc) are competent train conductors with just 2 days rules, traction and route training that should be okay ?

 

[qpsnapper]

Somewhat optimistically Central Station has been plastered with stickers and posters saying "COP26 - Thank you for travelling by train".

 

[PupCuff]

So if for example a train operator decides emergency bus drivers (Abellio rail support etc) are competent train conductors with just 2 days rules, traction and route training that should be okay ?

I would think doing rules, route and traction in two days would probably be unachievable, with the exception perhaps if they had recent but not current competence and just required a refresher.

 

[Christmas]

The last time they trained these desperados up it was a five day course. I don't know where the two day idea came from.

 

[snookertam]

T


The issue here is that DOO has been safely in use in the Strathclyde area since 1981. It's recently been extended to Edinburgh via, Bathgate. The trains service the largest populated area in Central Scotland and have no safety issues in those many years.

So the real question is why do we continue to need a guard on a train. They are more useful facing passengers and collecting fare revenue.

I’m aware of what DOO is and how long it has been in operation in the Glasgow area. I believe it was 1986 it was introduced on electric routes.

The issue is that, even on DOO routes, if there isn’t a second member of staff *rostered* then the train does not run. There can be a diagrammed turn which isn’t covered due to illness etc, which will not prevent the train from running. But without anyone being rostered then the train should not run. This is why we have had only a limited, hourly service during the day time only on certain routes in the Glasgow area on Sundays for months.

It may be feasible to get an Revenue Team Manager to work each Sunday and drop a day at work during the week, less so to get them working every day for 12 days to cover a strike.

So the solution is, either they come to an agreement with the Union, or next to no trains run (at best) for the duration of the conference.

We are also making a very big assumption about the safety record of DOO. There are numerous cases where people have been injured on platforms out of the drivers line of sight because of the lack of second, safety critical person working the train, as well as a number of scenarios where drivers of 6 car trains have stopped short of station platforms.

 

[320320]

I’m aware of what DOO is and how long it has been in operation in the Glasgow area. I believe it was 1986 it was introduced on electric routes.

The issue is that, even on DOO routes, if there isn’t a second member of staff *rostered* then the train does not run. There can be a diagrammed turn which isn’t covered due to illness etc, which will not prevent the train from running. But without anyone being rostered then the train should not run. This is why we have had only a limited, hourly service during the day time only on certain routes in the Glasgow area on Sundays for months.

It may be feasible to get an Revenue Team Manager to work each Sunday and drop a day at work during the week, less so to get them working every day for 12 days to cover a strike.

So the solution is, either they come to an agreement with the Union, or next to no trains run (at best) for the duration of the conference.

We are also making a very big assumption about the safety record of DOO. There are numerous cases where people have been injured on platforms out of the drivers line of sight because of the lack of second, safety critical person working the train, as well as a number of scenarios where drivers of 6 car trains have stopped short of station platforms.

TBF, there have been plenty of safety incidents where there has been a guard involved. Neither method of working is infallible.

 

[weastebusdepot]

The idea that people are being put in charge of trains with only two or three days training is a ridiculous myth that keeps being spread by those who's agenda it suits. No TOC would agree to that. If someone with inadequate training made a mistake that cost someone's life, then the person who signed them off as competent would be facing a spell in jail. No one would take that risk.

For someone to undertake guard duties they would need a minimum of two weeks of rules instruction (including PTS), one week of traction training and another week of route learning. More if their duties were to involve multiple combinations of traction or route.

 

[LowLevel]

The idea that people are being put in charge of trains with only two or three days training is a ridiculous myth that keeps being spread by those who's agenda it suits. No TOC would agree to that. If someone with inadequate training made a mistake that cost someone's life, then the person who signed them off as competent would be facing a spell in jail. No one would take that risk.

For someone to undertake guard duties they would need a minimum of two weeks of rules instruction (including PTS), one week of traction training and another week of route learning. More if their duties were to involve multiple combinations of traction or route.

I do actually know of a competency assessor manager (who didn't work for a current TOC) who refused to sign off contingency guards as competent for precisely the reason you state - he disagreed on principle that they should receive any reduced training except for revenue protection because a guard should be a guard. Of course the company involved at the time simply got someone else to do it but still.

2 days is a myth. A reduced amount of training involving people not necessarily from a railway background, particularly in terms of the settling in period working with mentors and accruing experience is however quite accurate.

Contingency guards can be perfectly competent if trained properly with a conscientious supervisor who keeps tabs on how they're getting on and a thorough assessment process to ensure they're taking in what they need to.

They can also be utterly awful, usually if the TOC lets itself get into mass production panic mode and starts dragging rail replacement bus coordinators and HQ staff out and sending them across the country.

 

[43066]

Contingency guards can be perfectly competent if trained properly with a conscientious supervisor who keeps tabs on how they're getting on and a thorough assessment process to ensure they're taking in what they need to.

They can also be utterly awful, usually if the TOC lets itself get into mass production panic mode and starts dragging rail replacement bus coordinators and HQ staff out and sending them across the country.

We seem to have both at the moment!

 

[Christmas]

Are the RMT and ScotRail/Transport Scotland not communicating at all? A Mexican stand off to see if ScotRail back down?

 

[ComUtoR]

2 days is a myth.

Myth or lack of understanding ?

How long would a refresher take ? Some Managers maintain their competence and we know what "maintain competence" generally entails. A quick 2 day refresher may be all thats required for some.

 

[Christmas]

Myth or lack of understanding ?

How long would a refresher take ? Some Managers maintain their competence and we know what "maintain competence" generally entails. A quick 2 day refresher may be all thats required for some.

It may not even come to that. Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh to Glasgow are covered by LNER and CrossCountry providing just about enough. I see ScotRail concentrating on the SPT DOO network, perhaps even the Edinburgh to Helensburgh. Anything will be a tall order for a full fortnight, especially if it's HQ office staff with their own work piling up.

 

[LowLevel]

Myth or lack of understanding ?

How long would a refresher take ? Some Managers maintain their competence and we know what "maintain competence" generally entails. A quick 2 day refresher may be all thats required for some.

Refreshing their competency once they've got it is a different thing of course but I know ours have to keep a note of when they've worked a train and there are minimum standards - not unusual for suitably qualified managers to offer to work the train for you in the morning peak for example to allow you to concentrate on revenue duties and them to log some time working.

I've never demonised the individuals involved - compliance in this kind of thing is expected of them nowadays and sitting down for a chat to them is quite illuminating at times.

The 2 day initial course thing that I often hear though is definitely a myth. I think ours is 2 weeks class room rules plus traction, route learning (though not to the usual norm times) etc.

I also find the RMT press releases about lethal safety infringements a bit tedious given there's usually at least one actual guard off at the time for doing much the same.

The basic errors you hear about are the ones that really worry me, turning up to a train and not knowing how to switch things on or being totally unaware of local instructions with limited route knowledge.

 

[ComUtoR]

The 2 day initial course thing that I often hear though is definitely a myth. I think ours is 2 weeks class room rules plus traction, route learning (though not to the usual norm times) etc.

For sure. I just wonder if the 2 day thing stems from the usual gossip and lack of understanding where someone may hear that Manager X had a 2 day course and was suddenly out there playing trains. etc. etc.


It's hard to maintain competence as the minimum requirements often feel like a tick box exercise. Those basic errors are frightening sometimes but I do understand that skills and knowledge are perishable.

 

[Starmill]

Arguably it's beneficial for various management grades to work trains in the normal course of operations in exactly the same way as it's beneficial for them to travel as passengers in their own free time, because it gives a more rounded understanding of the experience of front line staff and the end customer when doing their day job.

Of course we're drifting a little from topic of ScotRail here.

 

[snookertam]

It may not even come to that. Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh to Glasgow are covered by LNER and CrossCountry providing just about enough. I see ScotRail concentrating on the SPT DOO network, perhaps even the Edinburgh to Helensburgh. Anything will be a tall order for a full fortnight, especially if it's HQ office staff with their own work piling up.

The service levels provided by other TOCs will by no stretch be adequate to cover for the loss of ScotRail services. LNER and Cross Country between them run 5 services a day between Edinburgh and Aberdeen, all of which are bunched towards certain times of day.

You then have the issue of station staff provision at the likes of Haymarket, Dundee, Aberdeen etc which are wholly operated by ScotRail staff and will require a certain level of staff on site for the station to be safe to open. It’s not just on train staff but also station staff, indeed all RMT grades, who have called strike action.

Not seeing where the opportunity exists for operating any service in the ScotRail network, or any other TOC north of Glasgow/Edinburgh. Indeed even Lockerbie station should be shut by this too.

The only option to avoid an absolutely embarrassing shambles is to agree to the union demands. Nothing less will do.

And remember, it’s not just rail staff striking here, refuse staff at Glasgow City Council and Stagecoach bus staff across the country have also voted for strike action. These groups are sick of being taken for granted and being told they need to go without pay rises or adequate compensation for their work despite being called heroes throughout the pandemic. The issues here are wider than the railway.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if CrossCountry will reinstate any of their Glasgow Central services during the middle of the day?

 

[notadriver]

4 weeks rules course for conductors seems excessive. The *entire* conductor course at my last TOC was 9 weeks and that incorporated induction, the usual corporate bits and bobs, revenue, a week shadowing, traction, and rules/traction assessments as well as rules. 2 weeks rules is closer to the average I'd say.

Two days seems very short for a conductor rules course, I guess it probably could be done but I wouldn't like to be on it myself, it'd be bloody long days and you'd be hard pressed to find time for a coffee break. Doesn't give much flexibility if someone's struggling either. The precise competence requirements for managers working trains will be set by each train operator and that'll go through the usual safety validation processes, it's generally just rules/route/traction managers do, rather than including revenue and things like that.

Refreshing their competency once they've got it is a different thing of course but I know ours have to keep a note of when they've worked a train and there are minimum standards - not unusual for suitably qualified managers to offer to work the train for you in the morning peak for example to allow you to concentrate on revenue duties and them to log some time working.

I've never demonised the individuals involved - compliance in this kind of thing is expected of them nowadays and sitting down for a chat to them is quite illuminating at times.

The 2 day initial course thing that I often hear though is definitely a myth. I think ours is 2 weeks class room rules plus traction, route learning (though not to the usual norm times) etc.

I also find the RMT press releases about lethal safety infringements a bit tedious given there's usually at least one actual guard off at the time for doing much the same.

The basic errors you hear about are the ones that really worry me, turning up to a train and not knowing how to switch things on or being totally unaware of local instructions with limited route knowledge.

The 2 day course I got from a Stagecoach bus controller who said he and a few of his colleagues were being sent to SWT for training over the weekend to be contingency guards if a strike took place.
Someone who already has competency on the railway refreshing is different from someone who’s never been on charge of a train or with no railway experience.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed even Lockerbie station should be shut by this too.

Really? Lockerbie isn't mandatory staff dispatch is it, and there is a side exit for when the station is unstaffed?

 

[MDB1images]

Really? Lockerbie isn't mandatory staff dispatch is it, and there is a side exit for when the station is unstaffed?

Pretty sure they dispatch the Avanti trains at Lockerbie.

 

[Starmill]

Pretty sure they dispatch the Avanti trains at Lockerbie.

Many trains are sometimes, but is it mandatory?

 

[LoogaBarooga]

There was another email sent from ScotRail to staff this morning. It didn't provide any new information, but they are threating to take the offer off the table if it's not agreed before COP. There were rumoured to be talks today but not sure how accurate that is.

I was pretty confident this was going to get resolved but now I'm not so sure.

 

[John Bishop]

There was another email sent from ScotRail to staff this morning. It didn't provide any new information, but they are threating to take the offer off the table if it's not agreed before COP. There were rumoured to be talks today but not sure how accurate that is.

I was pretty confident this was going to get resolved but now I'm not so sure.

yeah, I get the impression the company are digging in for a fight and might just call the RMTs bluff on this one. If they can ride out COP 26 then any industrial action after that is unimportant as far as the company are concerned as they’re saving money.

The threat of the offer being taken off the table is a subtle change of strategy, turn the staff against the RMT for letting the offer go And not getting the chance to vote on it.

Intersting times ahead.

 

[ld0595]

Not strictly related to the industrial dispute but over 1,000 FirstBus drivers in Glasgow have also voted to go on strike. I can't imagine how hellish Glasgow will be if both strikes go ahead.

I'm sure there are some in the Scottish Government will be getting slightly nervous now

 

[Goldfish62]

The 2 day course I got from a Stagecoach bus controller who said he and a few of his colleagues were being sent to SWT for training over the weekend to be contingency guards if a strike took place.

Stagecoach had that training course in for years. I knew a bus company manager who was sent on it over 10 years ago.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Email from the union there to say they can't hold strikes relating to two disputes at the same time, so they are suspending the RDW enhancement related strike on Sunday the 7th of November.

I'm starting to get a bit confused now tbh.

 

[snookertam]

Probably doesn’t make any material difference as they’ve voted for strike action 1st -12th. Glasgow bus drivers just being balloted as opposed to having confirmed support for a strike. Might be cutting it fine to strike in 2 weeks’ time.

There was another email sent from ScotRail to staff this morning. It didn't provide any new information, but they are threating to take the offer off the table if it's not agreed before COP. There were rumoured to be talks today but not sure how accurate that is.

I was pretty confident this was going to get resolved but now I'm not so sure.

This strike is going ahead. Goodwill is completely non existent.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Well it looks like trains will be running on Sunday the 7th according to the union.