ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[wobman]

Some examples I’ve seen on Saturday night shifts: people pretending to jump from the platform as the train comes through the station, people throwing themselves/body slamming into the side of the train as it’s coming to a stop/starting to move off, pass com activations both accidentally and on purpose, noise of passengers if they’re in the saloon or vestibule behind the cab, drivers being threatened/verbally abuse/physically abused on the platform… And then you have the drivers on DOO who might have to deal with any incidents on board.

Apologies for the long winded reply. But these are just a few I have seen in the last month or two.

The Evening services are not nice places for rail staff, a lot of posters don't realise what it's like out there on the modern railways.

 

[Facing Back]

How odd.

I have to say I can’t imagine joining a forum discussing an industry I don’t even work in, have no real understanding of, and continually complaining about staff’s pay and working conditions. That strikes me as a strange use of time.

Do you honestly not have better things to do?!

I'm with the other guy. I have joined a forum that is for an industry I don't work in and have a minimal understanding of. I sit in the train behind the people driving it and keeping my safe but I am interested. I think many others are too. I want to be better informed about a big issue of the day.

I find now I am on trains and planes and various lounges I get time to read these things and consider.

It's overtime on a Sunday, so the guard's are still getting paid their normal wage. Nobody gets strike pay unless you believe the daily mail ! Research the origins of the dispute and it's far more complicated than You think......

that is an interesting point. Do the staff still get paid their guaranteed overtime for sundays they are not working because of industrial action? Or just their base salary and are therefore getting a real-time decrease?

“Agreed by all members”? I take it you’ve asked them all, then?!



Disputes of this nature (indeed virtually every contractual dispute of any kind) will boil down to “just semantics”. The legal profession does rather well out of this kind of thing! Semantics matter.



Have committed Sundays in the first place very clearly isn’t what this dispute is about.



Plenty of RMT members don’t agree with this kind of thing at all, indeed I know some who are proud Tories. The fact is the RMT is the only game in town for union representation of certain railway grades.



Fairly clearly, there’s a dispute as to whether what was actually achieved is the same or better than what was required by the agreement to be achieved. None of us can say more than that but, if there was a clear target which had been met, I rather suspect we would know about it from the company side.



If you adopt a binary approach of assuming: company management right, union wrong, then that does strike me as somewhat naive, yes.



Sometimes “archaic” can be a good thing. At least they’re keeping the “brave new world” of bus driver Ts and Cs (that you seem to know so much about ) out of the railway industry.

I agree with a lot of that. Lets start with until we understand the details of the actual agreement between Scotrail and the RMT this is all speculation.

The one point I do take issue with is the binary "management right, union wrong". My post was in response to the previous ops post, not the issue itself. So I want to see the terms of the agreement - as we have both said. However if the RMT are going to strike because of breach of those terms, I expect them to publish them. They are the ones escalating therefore they are the ones I expect to see the first set of evidence from. That is my binary position.

 

[43066]

industries that I'm involved in and the reactions of people (like yourself) are always interesting to read. You never know, they may even be contributing to some work I'm doing.

Ts and Cs (and salaries) are in fact common to all industries which engage the services of employees or workers. I maintain that it seems odd to take such an interest in the lot of others. If you really are using responses on this forum as part of your work, shouldn’t you disclose exactly what that is?

It's inevitable that on a forum with a heavy proportion of rail staff, any alternative views (whether from management or outside the industry), may be viewed with suspicion - this may be why you seem so bothered by my ongoing interest. The fact that you seem so concerned by my comments is itself of interest to me.

There’s nothing wrong with constructive discussion. However my observation is that you trot out the same predictable things on virtually every thread about unions and/or industrial action. You post in soundbites, fail to develop points, and generally add little of interest to the discussion. Your views seem to be based on nothing more than stereotypes and a dogmatic dislike of unions and railstaff. Personally I find that approach distasteful given the staff membership of this forum, for many of whom these industrial relations issues are very real and often deeply unpleasant.

I would contrast your posts with (for example) @Goldfish62 who is clearly skeptical of rail unions, but is even handed enough to debate sensibly (which is what we are all here for).

I disagree. Having met hundreds of MPs in my time, I’d say that 95% of them work extremely hard and deserve every penny they get (and more). It’s certainly not a job I’d want to do for that salary. And trying to keep on topic, I don’t suppose it’s a job that many (any?) train drivers would want to do for that salary either.

I’d certainly agree with the last sentence. Looks like a pretty bum job, albeit a backbench safe seat seems like money for old rope. It’s interesting to consider they the realities of being a train driver also wouldn’t appeal to many, despite the relatively decent salary.

 

[the sniper]

I'm with the other guy. I have joined a forum that is for an industry I don't work in and have a minimal understanding of. I sit in the train behind the people driving it and keeping my safe but I am interested. I think many others are too. I want to be better informed about a big issue of the day.

I find now I am on trains and planes and various lounges I get time to read these things and consider.

You're not with the other guy. You're missing a few thousand self-indulgent posts merely restating your stance on these matters.

 

[wobman]

The guards will be getter their base salary, it's just their committed overtime they are losing.

 

[Goldfish62]

The guards will be getter their base salary, it's just their committed overtime they are losing.

Seems to me then that the action could comfortably go on for ever. Scotrail/Transport Scotland would appear to have near zero leverage in this dispute, apart from the nuclear option of sacking the guards, which of course is never going to happen.

 

[Deltic1961]

An outside view could be that Transport Scotland have no desire to end the dispute as they are saving money, and the public blame the RMT.

Government stopped being about what was good for the public a long time ago.

 

[wobman]

Seems to me then that the action could comfortably go on for ever. Scotrail/Transport Scotland would appear to have near zero leverage in this dispute, apart from the nuclear option of sacking the guards, which of course is never going to happen.

Only the decision makers know what's their agenda in this dispute, but its going to take 1 side to concede but who will blink first !

If the RMT concede they will play hardball in any future negotiating towards Sunday being inside the working week in the future......

 

[kw12]

The one point I do take issue with is the binary "management right, union wrong". My post was in response to the previous ops post, not the issue itself. So I want to see the terms of the agreement - as we have both said. However if the RMT are going to strike because of breach of those terms, I expect them to publish them. They are the ones escalating therefore they are the ones I expect to see the first set of evidence from. That is my binary position.

As far as I am aware the RMT has not stated that the strikes are "because of a breach of those terms". I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the union is seeking to get a permanent version of the allowance payable in the temporary agreement. That is different from claiming that the temporary agreement's stated exit conditions have not been met and thus the temporary agreement needs to be extended until those conditions are met.

The transport minister, Graeme Dey, has stated (as reported at https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...strikes-a-national-humiliation-labour-3374301) that the "arrangement, made between the RMT and ScotRail, provided an additional, time-limited enhancement for ticket examiners and conductors – largely an acknowledgment of the extra work existing staff were undertaking while ScotRail recruited and trained additional staff to minimise the requirement to work rest days. Now that there are 140 additional ticket examiners and conductors, the issue of excessive rest day working has been resolved. I understand why the unions and workers might want to make that additional allowance permanent, but it simply isn’t sustainable in the long term".

 

[Bodiddly]

Odd that 99% of the insults on this forum appear to come from those promoting the militant trade Union viewpoints

Not so odd that 99% of the drivel written here is from people who have no clue how railway ops and associated Trade Union membership works.

 

[Deltic1961]

99.9% of the customers don't care how anything works. They just want their train to turn up on time.

 

[greyman42]

An outside view could be that Transport Scotland have no desire to end the dispute as they are saving money, and the public blame the RMT.

Government stopped being about what was good for the public a long time ago.

I don't think it is an outside view. As you say, Transport Scotland are happy with the current situation. Also the RMT members are happy because they are not working Sundays and the RMT are happy because they are causing disruption and their members are happy. So i see no end in sight.

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think it is an outside view. As you say, Transport Scotland are happy with the current situation. Also the RMT members are happy because they are not working Sundays and the RMT are happy because they are causing disruption and their members are happy. So i see no end in sight.

If Transport Scotland really are happy just to sit back ( and it appears they are) then it's a staggeringly short-sighted view. I don't think anyone would disagree that the dispute must be doing considerable damage to Scotland's railways and also impacting much of the rest of the economy. I remember with the protracted Northern dispute that small businesses in the Hope Valley closed for good because they weren't getting the trade from walkers which they relied on due to lack of trains. The same sort of thing must be happening in Scotland.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not so odd that 99% of the drivel written here is from people who have no clue how railway ops and associated Trade Union membership works.

.....or perhaps, quite simply, that some rail staff don't appreciate 'outsiders' having any view on how the rail industry operates?

 

[CEN60]

Are there actually any talks scheduled to resolve the situation?

 

[LowLevel]

Are there actually any talks scheduled to resolve the situation?

No. Standard Abellio policy, we won't talk whilst you're taking action *shrug*.

Not exactly olive branch or customer friendly territory but there you go, it is how they choose to conduct their industrial relations.

 

[Carntyne]

No. Standard Abellio policy, we won't talk whilst you're taking action *shrug*.

Not exactly olive branch or customer friendly territory but there you go, it is how they choose to conduct their industrial relations.

RMT has stated they have spoken to ScotRail in the past few weeks. Which policy is that?

 

[LowLevel]

RMT has stated they have spoken to ScotRail in the past few weeks. Which policy is that?

They might talk informally and exchange letters but Abellio don't engage in formal negotiations whilst action is being undertaken.

 

[Bodiddly]

.....or perhaps, quite simply, that some rail staff don't appreciate 'outsiders' having any view on how the rail industry operates?

Let's take one of your quotes.

Let's just nationalise the lot. Call it British Railways and let the government dictate the pay rates and terms and conditions.

Numerous problems solved.

Simples.

If you think Nationalising an industry with multiple wage structures, multiple companies, multiple job descriptions and multiple Union agreements is "simples", you are not just being facetious, you are being blatantly ignorant of Railway Operations.
It's an open forum and you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it.
Simples.

 

[Robertj21a]

Let's take one of your quotes.

If you think Nationalising an industry with multiple wage structures, multiple companies, multiple job descriptions and multiple Union agreements is "simples", you are not just being facetious, you are being blatantly ignorant of Railway Operations.
It's an open forum and you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it.
Simples.

I don't need to be aware of detailed Railway Operations to know that *any* very large operation could benefit from streamlining much of what you quote.
Nationalising the rail industry could solve many problems (imho) - but I'm a bit amused that you took it as a serious proposal.

 

[Horizon22]

Just curious. I can see that a weekend evening shift must be very unpleasant for the passenger-facing staff, whether on board or at the gateline, but how does it affect the drivers?

Weekends you're not booked to work aren't always "unpleasant" per-se but obviously as a shift worker, you might want to spend that time off being well...off. Diagrams are normally a bit more "strange" on the weekend for crew (especially when there's engineering works), but people are entitled to their days off and naturally if they fall on a weekend (when friends and family are also off), its less attractive.

Resources: "Hey do you want to work 1500-0000" ony our RD Thursday?"
Driver: "Yeah no problem"
Resources: "Oh also how do you feel about 1400-2300 on Saturday?"
Driver: "Ah sorry, not available then got plans".

Hence Saturday currently being as bad as Sundays in some places - most days the M-F is being papered over with higher % of RDW. There's shortages everywhere. Sunday is a totally different ball game and each TOC has varying agreements. I've worked at differing places that did either "inside the working week" or 'committed' Sundays approach, and neither had major Sunday problems, but that's partly culture too.

Personally we need to just crack on with a 7-day no matter the short-term cost. Its nonsense its 2021 and this debate is still rumbling along. Once it's bedded in, it will be easier for everyone and will give the public a bit more confidence about travelling on Sundays which even rational people outside Scotland get a bit wobbly about ("oh are you sure the trains are OK on Sunday?").

I don't need to be aware of detailed Railway Operations to know that *any* very large operation could benefit from streamlining much of what you quote.
Nationalising the rail industry could solve many problems (imho) - but I'm a bit amused that you took it as a serious proposal.

As others have posted some TOCs / franchises have been combined for 15+ years and still have train crew on 3 or more contracts / T&Cs based on what TOC they started in through various mergers / local arrangemnents / amalgmations etc and they've still not been rationalised. If you were going to, the only fair way to do it would be increasing everyone's salary to match the highest. That would be "streamlining", but it would be expensive streamlining.

 

[Robertj21a]

Weekends you're not booked to work aren't always "unpleasant" per-se but obviously as a shift worker, you might want to spend that time off being well...off. Diagrams are normally a bit more "strange" on the weekend for crew (especially when there's engineering works), but people are entitled to their days off and naturally if they fall on a weekend (when friends and family are also off), its less attractive.

Resources: "Hey do you want to work 1500-0000" ony our RD Thursday?"
Driver: "Yeah no problem"
Resources: "Oh also how do you feel about 1400-2300 on Saturday?"
Driver: "Ah sorry, not available then got plans".

Hence Saturday currently being as bad as Sundays in some places - most days the M-F is being papered over with higher % of RDW. There's shortages everywhere. Sunday is a totally different ball game and each TOC has varying agreements. I've worked at differing places that did either "inside the working week" or 'committed' Sundays approach, and neither had major Sunday problems, but that's partly culture too.

Personally we need to just crack on with a 7-day no matter the short-term cost. Its nonsense its 2021 and this debate is still rumbling along. Once it's bedded in, it will be easier for everyone and will give the public a bit more confidence about travelling on Sundays which even rational people outside Scotland get a bit wobbly about ("oh are you sure the trains are OK on Sunday?").



As others have posted some TOCs / franchises have been combined for 15+ years and still have train crew on 3 or more contracts / T&Cs based on what TOC they started in through various mergers / local arrangemnents / amalgmations etc and they've still not been rationalised. If you were going to, the only fair way to do it would be increasing everyone's salary to match the highest. That would be "streamlining", but it would be expensive streamlining.

I doubt that the taxpayers who would have to foot the bill would agree that the *only* solution is to increase everyone's salary to match the highest!

 

[Horizon22]

I doubt that the taxpayers who would have to foot the bill would agree that the *only* solution is to increase everyone's salary to match the highest!

So you're advocating pay cuts then?

 

[Robertj21a]

So you're advocating pay cuts then?

I'm not advocating anything !. It's quite likely that a government pursuing nationalisation would have a wide range of solutions to consider. Some would probably involve rationalisation, economies, streamlining of functions etc etc.
It would certainly be an interesting period for the rail industry as a whole.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm not advocating anything !. It's quite likely that a government pursuing nationalisation would have a wide range of solutions to consider. Some would probably involve rationalisation, economies, streamlining of functions etc etc.
It would certainly be an interesting period for the rail industry as a whole.

Yes you keep mentioning these words like "rationalisation" and "streamlining", I'm just stating what the reality of that would likely mean. You'd probably get more disruption if this ended up raising / improving some train crew salaries / T&Cs, yet lowering / removing others.

I believe the industry definitely needs to take a hard look at itself moving forward (proper 7-day week being & radical fares reform being just a couple), and some standardisation would be great, but the practicalities of doing that are much more complex then they may seem initially.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes you keep mentioning these words like "rationalisation" and "streamlining", I'm just stating what the reality of that would likely mean.

With a little blue sky thinking the railway could reorganise and redistribute to create flexible workforce solutions with modern economical factors and better workstream team leadership. With an upwardly mobile approach to internal promotion with more integrated vertical movement, the railway could incentivise and encourage employee engagement and increase staff retention.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes you keep mentioning these words like "rationalisation" and "streamlining", I'm just stating what the reality of that would likely mean. You'd probably get more disruption if this ended up raising / improving some train crew salaries / T&Cs, yet lowering / removing others.

I believe the industry definitely needs to take a hard look at itself moving forward (proper 7-day week being & radical fares reform being just a couple), and some standardisation would be great, but the practicalities of doing that are much more complex then they may seem

Yes you keep mentioning these words like "rationalisation" and "streamlining", I'm just stating what the reality of that would likely mean. You'd probably get more disruption if this ended up raising / improving some train crew salaries / T&Cs, yet lowering / removing others.

I believe the industry definitely needs to take a hard look at itself moving forward (proper 7-day week being & radical fares reform being just a couple), and some standardisation would be great, but the practicalities of doing that are much more complex then they may seem initially.

I'm sure it's massively more complex than I have suggested to date!. However, that is never a good reason to avoid it.
We all need a challenge....

 

[Horizon22]

With a little blue sky thinking the railway could reorganise and redistribute to create flexible workforce solutions with modern economical factors and better workstream team leadership. With an upwardly mobile approach to internal promotion with more integrated vertical movement, the railway could incentivise and encourage employee engagement and increase staff retention.

Don't get me wrong there's loads of inefficiences in the railway system and aspects such as recruitment, retention and HR are at best slow, at worst incompetent. But when it comes to trying to adjust T&Cs it gets (understandably) a lot more resistant. Some of this reorganisation may well come in the form of GBR, but there's a lot of wait and see as to how that will come to pass in practice.

 

[ainsworth74]

With a little blue sky thinking the railway could reorganise and redistribute to create flexible workforce solutions with modern economical factors and better workstream team leadership. With an upwardly mobile approach to internal promotion with more integrated vertical movement, the railway could incentivise and encourage employee engagement and increase staff retention.

Missed your calling as a management consultant!

 

[43096]

Missed your calling as a management consultant!

I’m calling “house!” on my buzzword bingo card!