Scotrail M-tickets withdrawn on certain routes.

[johncrossley]

Paper tickets are the best way to go. No "my phone died" excuses, no buying only if a ticket examiner is approaching. Buy a physical ticket from the machine before boarding and it's better for everyone.

This is no good unless you buy the ticket hours/days before you need the travel. Before e-tickets/mobile tickets became dominant, you had to allow time to queue for the machine or the ticket office. The train companies didn't make allowance for long queues, meaning you had to allow at least 30 minutes before an important journey in case there was a long queue. For a short journey, where is the incentive to take the train when you had to add 30 minutes to the actual journey time? Long queues effectively meant that the station was closed.

 

[Siemens Trains]

This is no good unless you buy the ticket hours/days before you need the travel. Before e-tickets/mobile tickets became dominant, you had to allow time to queue for the machine or the ticket office. The train companies didn't make allowance for long queues, meaning you had to allow at least 30 minutes before an important journey in case there was a long queue. For a short journey, where is the incentive to take the train when you had to add 30 minutes to the actual journey time? Long queues effectively meant that the station was closed.

At the end of a miserable journey I objected to long queues for buying a ticket just to get through the destination station barriers, when the origin station ticket machine was out of order.

I'd still prefer a paper ticket though. I've had a couple of instances where a last minute m-ticket purchase took a few minutes to appear, meaning I resorted to buying a paper ticket for the same journey thereby paying twice.

 

[Hadders]

Frankly, this is appalling behaviour from Scotrail. I don't condone ticket evasion but there are bettwe ways of dealing with fare evasion than this.

It was bad enough with Scotrail insisting on using the outdated m-ticket format given the rest of the industry has moved to e-tickets. This will just confusion and I have my doubts that will actually do anything significant for revenue protection.

 

[Mainline421]

This is no good unless you buy the ticket hours/days before you need the travel. Before e-tickets/mobile tickets became dominant, you had to allow time to queue for the machine or the ticket office. The train companies didn't make allowance for long queues, meaning you had to allow at least 30 minutes before an important journey in case there was a long queue. For a short journey, where is the incentive to take the train when you had to add 30 minutes to the actual journey time? Long queues effectively meant that the station was closed.

People are imagining inconveniences now, throughout my childhood we'd leave from home 15 minutes before the train and buy a paper ticket every time. I still use paper tickets (except Tap2Go) and it's never occurred to me to allow more than 2 minutes or so to get a common ticket, regardless of the journey or distance.

 

[Adam Williams]

People are imagining inconveniences now, throughout my childhood we'd leave from home 15 minutes before the train and buy a paper ticket every time

Yeah, and the world has moved on. Like it or not, getting a paper ticket is still slower than the electronic alternative. Even if you're an expert at using the TVM, it's still going to be slower than a well-designed app with a card saved.

 

[johncrossley]

People are imagining inconveniences now, throughout my childhood we'd leave from home 15 minutes before the train and buy a paper ticket every time. I still use paper tickets (except Tap2Go) and it's never occurred to me to allow more than 2 minutes or so to get a common ticket, regardless of the journey or distance.

Until my 30s, ticket machines weren't everywhere, didn't accept cards and only sold tickets to certain destinations. So if someone at the ticket office wanted to buy a complicated ticket, you would miss the train.

 

[Hadders]

People are imagining inconveniences now, throughout my childhood we'd leave from home 15 minutes before the train and buy a paper ticket every time. I still use paper tickets (except Tap2Go) and it's never occurred to me to allow more than 2 minutes or so to get a common ticket, regardless of the journey or distance.

Airline tickets, cinema tickets, sporting tickets, visitor attractions are almost always e-tickets thesedays. The railway cannot ignore this, the world moves on.

 

[Kite159]

Frankly, this is appalling behaviour from Scotrail. I don't condone ticket evasion but there are bettwe ways of dealing with fare evasion than this.

It was bad enough with Scotrail insisting on using the outdated m-ticket format given the rest of the industry has moved to e-tickets. This will just confusion and I have my doubts that will actually do anything significant for revenue protection.

It will probably catch a few "pay when challenged" out when the ticket they purchase from Argyle Street to Glasgow Central (for example) comes up as a TOD code rather than as an m-ticket. Although as Scotland lacks any sort of penalty fare scheme those chancers will simply claim to have boarded at Bridgeton/Rutherglen etc.

Didn't Northern do something similar with some of the local stations closest to Leeds where you can't buy an eticket for Burley Park - Leeds to try and combat the short farers

 

[Mainline421]

Yeah, and the world has moved on. Like it or not, getting a paper ticket is still slower than the electronic alternative. Even if you're an expert at using the TVM, it's still going to be slower than a well-designed app with a card saved.

It's three taps with zero loading time on an S&B TVM. I suspect the average semi-regular traveller spends a lot longer on the ticket purchasing process via apps than TVMs.

Airline tickets, cinema tickets, sporting tickets, visitor attractions are almost always e-tickets thesedays. The railway cannot ignore this, the world moves on.

Pay as You Go is a better solution for these journeys, most bus companies are already moving away from barcode tickets except for seasons. CCST works for people who don't travel often.

 

[Discuss223]

Although as Scotland lacks any sort of penalty fare scheme those chancers will simply claim to have boarded at Bridgeton/Rutherglen etc.

They could still be prosecuted under byelaws or RORA.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's three taps with zero loading time on an S&B TVM

We must be using different S&B TVMs...

Half the time the bloody things can't even read a payment card properly

 

[Hadders]

Pay as You Go is a better solution for these journeys, most bus companies are already moving away from barcode tickets except for seasons. CCST works for people who don't travel often.

I'm inclined to agree but then we have Scotrail's cack handed attempt at a PAYG system......

 

[Siemens Trains]

Yeah, and the world has moved on. Like it or not, getting a paper ticket is still slower than the electronic alternative. Even if you're an expert at using the TVM, it's still going to be slower than a well-designed app with a card saved.

Possibly off-topic, but the speed of issuing paper tickets on the railway seems painfully and almost deliberately slow. I sometimes feel conductors would be quicker writing them out by hand. Or pouring a pint of Guiness instead.

 

[Adam Williams]

Possibly off-topic, but the speed of issuing paper tickets on the railway seems painfully and almost deliberately slow. I sometimes feel conductors would be quicker writing them out by hand. Or pouring a pint of Guiness instead.

I have seen a ToD booking take 9 minutes and 48 seconds to print on an S&B machine. The printing of each coupon can be painfully, painfully slow. Horrible experience if you're just about to miss a train!

 

[embers25]

People are imagining inconveniences now, throughout my childhood we'd leave from home 15 minutes before the train and buy a paper ticket every time. I still use paper tickets (except Tap2Go) and it's never occurred to me to allow more than 2 minutes or so to get a common ticket, regardless of the journey or distance.

I prefer paper tickets but, in peak, at some stations you can wait quite a while to buy a ticket. Often over 10 mins. Some stations only have one slow machine on one platform and its only accessible by level crossing so even more time has to be allowed. If your train is hourly or worse that can be a huge issue. Definitely far in excess of two minutes as the gates go down at least 3 mins before the train. Even longer if there are trains both ways.

 

[MrJeeves]

I have seen a ToD booking take 9 minutes and 48 seconds to print on an S&B machine. The printing of each coupon can be painfully, painfully slow. Horrible experience if you're just about to miss a train!

Even worse when the collection slot is so full that tickets jump out when you try to open it to collect them!

 

[Peter0124]

Even worse when the collection slot is so full that tickets jump out when you try to open it to collect them!

That'll be because some machines still insist on printing receipts without a checkbox option to enable it. So you end up having people leave the receipts in the machine, meaning you can sometimes take someones receipt with you and leave your own ticket behind.

I believe they have done away with receipts now though at the Scotrail TVM I used.

 

[Scotrail84]

There are some very smart, determined fare evaders out there. Some even going as far as studying RTT to see if specific services go into non barriered platforms at Edinburgh as well as train consists and will join the front set of coaches knowing that they are unlikely to see a guard in the front set thus avoiding their fare or avoiding having to activate their M ticket and claim a refund saying they didn't use it. Others will chance it and purchase after departure, sometimes from a station that they didn't board at too. M tickets are regularly abused by passengers, they're a bad thing IMO.

 

[MrJeeves]

There are some very smart, determined fare evaders out there. Some even going as far as studying RTT to see if specific services go into non barriered platforms at Edinburgh as well as train consists and will join the front set of coaches knowing that they are unlikely to see a guard in the front set thus avoiding their fare or avoiding having to activate their M ticket and claim a refund saying they didn't use it. Others will chance it and purchase after departure, sometimes from a station that they didn't board at too. M tickets are regularly abused by passengers, they're a bad thing IMO.

Fantastic! Now they can just buy on board or not at all given Scotland's lackadaisical handling of fare evasion. No need to even pretend you were going to pay in the first place.

 

[TUC]

Paper tickets are the best way to go. No "my phone died" excuses, no buying only if a ticket examiner is approaching. Buy a physical ticket from the machine before boarding and it's better for everyone.

Why would I want to be slowed down and have to leave the house earlier on a busy morning by having to do that? Far easier to buy my ticket over breakfast at home.

 

[Hadders]

There are some very smart, determined fare evaders out there. Some even going as far as studying RTT to see if specific services go into non barriered platforms at Edinburgh as well as train consists and will join the front set of coaches knowing that they are unlikely to see a guard in the front set thus avoiding their fare or avoiding having to activate their M ticket and claim a refund saying they didn't use it. Others will chance it and purchase after departure, sometimes from a station that they didn't board at too. M tickets are regularly abused by passengers, they're a bad thing IMO.

But all the stuff you mention like studying RTT to find an unbarriered platform, joining the front coach etc will happen regardless of the ticket format.

 

[800Travel]

I might be missing something, but why don't Scotrail just permit e-tickets for these flows instead rather than m-tickets? As far as I know, e-tickets don't need to be activated, but have the benefits of online purchase and no need to collect at a TVM or Ticket Office.

 

[Peter0124]

I might be missing something, but why don't Scotrail just permit e-tickets for these flows instead rather than m-tickets? As far as I know, e-tickets don't need to be activated, but have the benefits of online purchase and no need to collect at a TVM or Ticket Office.

Ironically, Scotrail said to me a few years ago on twitter that they don't offer them due to a 'fraud risk'

 

[Watershed]

They could still be prosecuted under byelaws or RORA.

Not by ScotRail. Private prosecutions are, for all practical purposes, impossible in Scotland.

 

[Starmill]

Not by ScotRail. Private prosecutions are, for all practical purposes, impossible in Scotland.

No indeed. But as ScotRail have specifically mentioned fraud I'd expect the Procurator Fiscal to be interested in credible accusations of this.

 

[Scotrail84]

No indeed. But as ScotRail have specifically mentioned fraud I'd expect the Procurator Fiscal to be interested in credible accusations of this.

ScotRail have definitely been able to prosecute and claim back fare evading by individuals over the years. Some quite substantial amounts as well.

 

[Watershed]

ScotRail have definitely been able to prosecute and claim back fare evading by individuals over the years. Some quite substantial amounts as well.

It would not have been ScotRail prosecuting. Perhaps they referred a case to the BTP or Procurator Fiscal.

They can of course bring a civil claim instead of (or in addition to) any prosecution.

 

[sannox]

You would be expected to nominate a starting station and to tap in. There is a penalty for failing to do so:

I know but people looking to circumvent fares by traveling from far out could still buy a cheap ticket as long as they remember when it stops there and aren't doing it at the gate line.

 

[rubikcuber]

I'm really upset about this. I live next to Slateford station, and the journey to Haymarket is great. In to town in 3 minutes. The Scotrail app now tells me I need to pick up my ticket from the station. Of course, there isn't a machine at Slateford. So you can't. I also have a Club 50 railcard, which used to give a 20% discount on mTickets, now I only get a 10% discount buying on the train or before the barrier (not to mention the extra time buying the ticket at the barrier). I contacted customer services and they've basically told me that I can no longer get the 20% discount on this journey.

Instead I'm going to need to pay extra to buy an mTicket from the previous station (Kingsknowe) or a ticket to Waverley and break the journey. So I'm forced to pay more no matter what.

Of course, anyone who is presumably fraudulently buying tickets from Slateford will just do the same thing.

 

[johncrossley]

I'm really upset about this. I live next to Slateford station, and the journey to Haymarket is great. In to town in 3 minutes. The Scotrail app now tells me I need to pick up my ticket from the station. Of course, there isn't a machine at Slateford. So you can't. I also have a Club 50 railcard, which used to give a 20% discount on mTickets, now I only get a 10% discount buying on the train or before the barrier (not to mention the extra time buying the ticket at the barrier). I contacted customer services and they've basically told me that I can no longer get the 20% discount on this journey.

Instead I'm going to need to pay extra to buy an mTicket from the previous station (Kingsknowe) or a ticket to Waverley and break the journey. So I'm forced to pay more no matter what.

Of course, anyone who is presumably fraudulently buying tickets from Slateford will just do the same thing.

That is unacceptable. You should buy the more expensive mTicket then demand a refund from Scotrail for the balance. If you don't get anywhere, escalate it. If necessary, claim the difference from your bank.