Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[David M]

I hope the Borders council challenges the halving in Borders railway frequency, apparently these services are getting very busy now and 1tph off-peak just won't cut it.

On a Saturday, agreed, although I believe Saturday's are reverting to half-hourly.
On a weekday? I've been on a few Tweedbank to Edinburgh am and return pm recently and they haven't been overly busy. Easy to get a seat with no-one sitting next to you at all times I've been on them.

 

[Class83]

Are any of the councils challenging the service reductions prepared to put their hands in their pockets to make up the shortfall in funding beyond that TS have (presumably) indicated they are prepared to make? Someone has to...

Though in the case of Stirling, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy, the uneconomical services being cut are the semi-fast services introduced when stops were removed from the intercity services. Scotrail are very concerned about a 5 minute increase in the journey time to Dundee and Aberdeen, but not a 10-15 minute increase in journey time to Stirling, Inverkeithing (basically Dunfermline) or Kirkcaldy. Should the councils paying be Fife and Stirling, or Dundee and Aberdeen?

 

[Scotrail314209]

I have to say it was a bit of a joke seeing all the Fife stops being added into trains from Perth and Dundee, why slow down some journeys north of Kirkcaldy for no apparent reason?

 

[adrock1976]

Are any of the councils challenging the service reductions prepared to put their hands in their pockets to make up the shortfall in funding beyond that TS have (presumably) indicated they are prepared to make? Someone has to...

Being as East Dunbartonshire are one of the councils making noises, they already fund public transport through council tax as it was one of the twelve councils that were once part of Strathclyde Regional Council.

When I used to reside in Glasgow, the annual council tax bill came with a book that had a pie chart and table allocating council spending and income, plus the charges for the various CT bands. One of these entries had a line for public transport (bus, rail, Subway).

 

[dcsprior]

The consultation closed on 2nd October, is there a date for the outcome? (I've not had any joy finding one on the Scotrail website)

 

[Jordan1296]

The consultation closed on 2nd October, is there a date for the outcome? (I've not had any joy finding one on the Scotrail website)

Would imagine the outcome, if there is one, will be in the New Year.

 

[numtot12345]

Hi, can anyone advise on what the frequency of neilston/newton/Cathcart circle will be if proposed timetable goes ahead?

For various reasons, including as I type right now, I am getting increasingly really frustrated by the lack of services on it and getting to Cathcart.

For example there is a random time in the weekday evening (21.05) where the Neilston does not run, therefore leaving a full hours gap if travelling to Cathcart. I arrived at Central there at about 20.55, expecting there to be a 21.05, however have had to wait about 45mins for departure. I cant get a langside train either as that's 1tph round the west side of the circle, at xx.45.

Of course I could just get a No4 or No6 First Bus, which I have done in the past, however on several occasions I have already bought my train ticket so out of principle wait on the train(unless I'm in a rush). This is the exact (if somewhat specific) situation where having an Oyster Card/Integrated Smart Card for Glasgow at least would help, in that I could effectively buy a ticket to get from Glasgow into Cathcart by any mode - so I'm not disadvantaged by the limitations of the mode's frequency.

This is compounded by the fact there seems to be only Cathcart circle trains in the morning peak? (Correct me if I'm wrong?). Outwith that time, Cathcart seems to be disproportionately impacted despite the population density there, effectively is on neilston frequency as the newton services do not stop there.

I am completely aware more services would be transporting fresh air. My want for more services is probably premature given pandemic and slow return to increased passenger numbers. However I do feel frustrated about that part of the network. An integrated ticket scheme so could choose between the 4 and 6 buses and train would be useful.


Sorry for the rant...and Clyde Metro couldn't come any sooner which of course will resolve all this

 

[hexagon789]

Hi, can anyone advise on what the frequency of neilston/newton/Cathcart circle will be if proposed timetable goes ahead?

For various reasons, including as I type right now, I am getting increasingly really frustrated by the lack of services on it and getting to Cathcart.

For example there is a random time in the weekday evening (21.05) where the Neilston does not run, therefore leaving a full hours gap if travelling to Cathcart. I arrived at Central there at about 20.55, expecting there to be a 21.05, however have had to wait about 45mins for departure. I cant get a langside train either as that's 1tph round the west side of the circle, at xx.45.

Of course I could just get a No4 or No6 First Bus, which I have done in the past, however on several occasions I have already bought my train ticket so out of principle wait on the train(unless I'm in a rush). This is the exact (if somewhat specific) situation where having an Oyster Card/Integrated Smart Card for Glasgow at least would help, in that I could effectively buy a ticket to get from Glasgow into Cathcart by any mode - so I'm not disadvantaged by the limitations of the mode's frequency.

This is compounded by the fact there seems to be only Cathcart circle trains in the morning peak? (Correct me if I'm wrong?). Outwith that time, Cathcart seems to be disproportionately impacted despite the population density there, effectively is on neilston frequency as the newton services do not stop there.

I am completely aware more services would be transporting fresh air. My want for more services is probably premature given pandemic and slow return to increased passenger numbers. However I do feel frustrated about that part of the network. An integrated ticket scheme so could choose between the 4 and 6 buses and train would be useful.


Sorry for the rant...and Clyde Metro couldn't come any sooner which of course will resolve all this

Unchanged from present arrangements, the draft timetable can be viewed on ScotRail's website via this link:

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20210820/6OmPLUApQ1vK8kBsDBWHk17IRaepuNVSHMoRblGMywg/may_22_-_glasgow_south_electrics_timetable.pdf

 

[Peter0124]

Unchanged from present arrangements, the draft timetable can be viewed on ScotRail's website via this link:

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20210820/6OmPLUApQ1vK8kBsDBWHk17IRaepuNVSHMoRblGMywg/may_22_-_glasgow_south_electrics_timetable.pdf

Its ridiculous the last train from Newton branch to Mount Florida etc is 19.49

 

[hexagon789]

Its ridiculous the last train from Newton branch to Mount Florida etc is 19.49

Unfortunately I think we are stuck with things as they are until at least the December 2022 timetable change. One can only hope passenger numbers improve and sustain sufficiently to persuade Transport Scotland to increase services again then.

 

[ld0595]

As another Cathcart user, I'm also frustrated at the lack of service now, especially in the evenings. It's just put me off the train for most of my trips given it's cheaper, more convenient and quicker to drive.

I feel for those on the western side of the circle (Shawlands, Langside etc.) who are now down to 1tph. Pretty shocking for a suburban service in Scotland's largest city... a complete backwards step in a world where we need to encourage people away from cars.

 

[diamond chap]

The consultation closed on 2nd October, is there a date for the outcome? (I've not had any joy finding one on the Scotrail website)

Consultation response now here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/fit-future. Includes the interesting claim that "Even before the pandemic, on average, each seat was empty more for more than 75 per cent of its journey".

(Mods - could this thread be moved to the timetable forum, where other such threads reside?)

 

[hexagon789]

Consultation response now here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/fit-future. Includes the interesting claim that "Even before the pandemic, on average, each seat was empty more for more than 75 per cent of its journey".

(Mods - could this thread be moved to the timetable forum, where other such threads reside?)

I see the Borders Line is restored to half-hourly off-peak on a "trial basis"

Also, that Edinburgh-Glasgow via Shotts and Carstairs are to be increased in trains (not mention of details) from December 2022 and May 2023 pending staff training.

So there are a few changes since the proposed timetable I wasn't aware of.

The change to the routing of the Edinburgh-Perth stopper I already noticed in the draft timetable.

 

[eoff]

Mmm.

Scotrail: Few are travelling so we can't run the same service
Me: My usual trains are not running so I am not travelling as often (1/4 to 1/5 of journeys) as I would otherwise be.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wonder just how much pressure it took them to restore borders to half-hourly even if it is is on a trial basis? They only had to look at passenger data pre pandemic to see that fairly large number of those borders trains certainly did not have empty seats for 75% or more of their journeys. Even if they were empty from tweedbank or Galashiels to gorebridge they were certainly well sat in from then onwards and given that since the pandemic a lot more of the housing at shawfair has been completed and is currently only served by one train an hour in each direction and the after ritwick Lee slow number 33 bus they will have an awful lot of suppressed demand and will have a much harder battle on their hands to / it again.

 

[takno]

Great, so no recovery in the Edinburgh - Glasgow frequency, meaning it's harder for me to encourage my Glasgow-based staff into the office and more of the ones that do come through will drive, meaning that passenger numbers won't recover, meaning that ScotRail will never start making a profit from their one profitable route. It's like a vicious circle of stupid.

Empty seats, empty heads

 

[Blindtraveler]

Whilst I completely 100-percent agree with everything you say, I suspect that when they introduced 8 coaches on that route it was always there long-term plan to cut frequency. Saves money doesn't it, saves staff and resources and all sorts of other things.



My neighbour is a regular user of the CityLink 900 between Edinburgh and Glasgow and has noticed a steady increase in passenger numbers using that at the time he is using it and he estimates that it is almost back to pre pandemic levels on many journeys and there are one or two that have probably exceeded those. Certainly when I used it on Monday just gone to ride to Glasgow mid afternoon there was only one seat left on the bottom deck when I boarded and the few remaining seats on the top deck were taken by the time we reached harthill

 

[Mag_seven]

Its ridiculous the last train from Newton branch to Mount Florida etc is 19.49

The whole thing is ridiculous - from what I can see the south side electric service (plus others elsewhere) has been decimated from what it was pre pandemic. I thought the SNP were in coalition with the Greens and were pro public transport?

 

[greyman42]

The whole thing is ridiculous - from what I can see the south side electric service (plus others elsewhere) has been decimated from what it was pre pandemic. I thought the SNP were in coalition with the Greens and were pro public transport?

The SNP only have one agenda which is independence. The greens are only there to shore up their majority.

 

[Deltic1961]

If people think Scotrail has been sub par and expensive under Abellio / First you ain't seen nothing yet. Scottish Government do not have a good record when taking over companies.

Technically fares should go down without having a middle man to pay but I doubt that'll ever happen.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I'm not sure how well the reduced Ayr frequency will go down in Summers.

Pre-COVID it was 4tph (2tph non-stop Kilwinning to Glasgow, 4tph all stops), now it's 2tph off-peak with an occasional fast slotted in.

Having made the mistake of going to visit my friend in Ayr on a hot weekday during the school holidays, the trains were overcrowded due to people heading for Irvine, Troon, Prestwick and Ayr.

To make it worse, the return service around 1700 was only 3 carriages and people were left behind in Prestwick and Troon as it was full and standing from Ayr.

Keeping Ayrshire as 1tph in the evenings really isn't a great call either as these services have always been on the busy side on a Friday/Saturday night.

 

[takno]

I'm not sure how well the reduced Ayr frequency will go down in Summers.

Pre-COVID it was 4tph (2tph non-stop Kilwinning to Glasgow, 4tph all stops), now it's 2tph off-peak with an occasional fast slotted in.

Having made the mistake of going to visit my friend in Ayr on a hot weekday during the school holidays, the trains were overcrowded due to people heading for Irvine, Troon, Prestwick and Ayr.

To make it worse, the return service around 1700 was only 3 carriages and people were left behind in Prestwick and Troon as it was full and standing from Ayr.

Keeping Ayrshire as 1tph in the evenings really isn't a great call either as these services have always been on the busy side on a Friday/Saturday night.

The logical conclusion of their painfully stupid "seats spend 80% of their time empty" reasoning is that they *want* the train to be full from Ayr, and it should never be possible to get on at Prestwick.

You can't argue with logic like that. You can really only vote it out

 

[GordonT]

Not sure if this has come up already but some pulling back from the original version of the service proposals appears to have taken place.

ScotRail U-turn on plans for Perth to Edinburgh service - but journeys will still take longer

ScotRail bosses have U-turned on proposed changes to the Perth to Edinburgh service - but journeys are still going to take longer. The rail operator - in

www.thecourier.co.uk

 

[numtot12345]

Great, so no recovery in the Edinburgh - Glasgow frequency, meaning it's harder for me to encourage my Glasgow-based staff into the office and more of the ones that do come through will drive, meaning that passenger numbers won't recover, meaning that ScotRail will never start making a profit from their one profitable route. It's like a vicious circle of stupid.

Empty seats, empty heads

And then when the rugby is on like today for Scotland v England, the train is absolutely rammed because only 2tph. On the 1045 from GQS and loads standing.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As I alluded to earlier, all this is doing is handing passengers on a plate to existing bus and coach operators and any new ones that might suddenly decide to put their hand in their pocket and have a punt at a few new ideas. How long will it be for example until one of the East Lothian operations runs a few express coaches capable of carrying folded prams and walking frames and buggies and barbecues and all sorts of other rubbish to and from the seaside destinations and Edinburgh city Centre? Aimed at all those passengers who don't want to drive or who can't and who would previously have taken the match reduced rail service and who do not wish to spend forever and a day using the Lothian country or whatever they are branded as this week's service bus offering. Stagecoach already run a comprehensive express network as do McGill's and all of these operators have fairly easy access to additional vehicles and and the only thing probably stopping them my simply flooding the roads with extra services is driver availability.


As somebody else has already said you cannot reason with stupid. And has again also been pointed out, the SNP have a one-track agenda and will likely make themselves look good by all the sudden introducing a few seaside specials or tourist expresses no doubt at some highly controversially inflated price to prop up the tourism sector which will according to them at any rate make a further case for independence. But I won't get bogged down with politics, I've already got blood pressure problems today

 

[Falcon1200]

I'm not sure how well the reduced Ayr frequency will go down in Summers.

Pre-COVID it was 4tph (2tph non-stop Kilwinning to Glasgow, 4tph all stops), now it's 2tph off-peak with an occasional fast slotted in.

And what makes it worse is that the Ardrossan and Largs services remain limited stop whereas the Ayr trains are all-stations, therefore except when the odd express runs Ayr gets a far worse service than other, arguably less significant, places on the Ayrshire lines. And to rub it in, half the Kilmarnock/Glasgows are non stop between Barrhead and Central !

 

[Scotrail314209]

And what makes it worse is that the Ardrossan and Largs services remain limited stop whereas the Ayr trains are all-stations, therefore except when the odd express runs Ayr gets a far worse service than other, arguably less significant, places on the Ayrshire lines. And to rub it in, half the Kilmarnock/Glasgows are non stop between Barrhead and Central !

Not really no.

Stevenston, Saltcoats and Ardrossan South Beach have their frequency unchanged, as do the intermediate stations between Dalry and Johnstone (inc both). Only Kilwinning - Ayr really loses out in this regard.

Largs remains with it's 1tph frequency, which is just about enough most of the time. It's in the evening that everybody loses out on the Ayrshire lines with the gap being 15 minutes then 45 minutes. The 00 Ayr and 15 Ardrossan Harbour have been cut from the evening timetable.

 

[Falcon1200]

Only Kilwinning - Ayr really loses out in this regard.

Although Ayr is surely by far the most important location on the Ayrshire routes but IMHO now has its worst service to Glasgow since electrification, with the majority of trains stopping at every single station, including the likes of Lochwinnoch and Howwood, between Ayr and Paisley Gilmour St. And Troon and Irvine are major destinations too.

 

[Sprinter156]

While we're in the south-west, most Stranraer to Kilmarnock/Glasgow trains will terminate at Ayr in the new timetable, 2 extra Girvan trains and a 9 hour gap between Girvan-Kilmarnock services.

 

[ld0595]

And still no improvement to Cathcart services.. down to 1tph in the evenings and no direct service to the west of the circle other than a few peak services. I thought we were trying to encourage people on to public transport?!