Scotrail "Scenic Stock" discussion thread

[Techniquest]

That image they use doesn't suggest much of a refurb on the seats, they still look as awful as what's in use now. Note I refer to the Haymarket 158s specifically here, 158732 is what I'm using as my source of reference for lack of comfort.

Refresh rather than refurb for the 156s, interesting as that would suggest keeping the same seats they have now, which I find more comfortable than those in the 158s.

 

[Suraggu]

That image they use doesn't suggest much of a refurb on the seats, they still look as awful as what's in use now. Note I refer to the Haymarket 158s specifically here, 158732 is what I'm using as my source of reference for lack of comfort.

Refresh rather than refurb for the 156s, interesting as that would suggest keeping the same seats they have now, which I find more comfortable than those in the 158s.

Richmond seating I believe, truly horrendous seats for any length of journey. From the looks of the Image Grammar seating (FGW HST, EMT 158's, IS based 158's) will be fitted, which I must say on 158701 it was rather comfy.

 

[doningtonphil]

With steam locos being suggested on the scenic line will it be a permanent operator such as West Coast who currently operate fort William - Mallaig or will the routes be opened up to more frequent railway tours promoted by the various tour operators using whatever steam loco happens to be available. Steam hauled services seem to be being increasingly persecuted on their predominantly English routes. Maybe Scotland will become a welcome refuge for some of the big names.

you can certainly imagine the A4 60009 union of south Africa taking up residency in view of its Scottish ownership

 

[WatcherZero]

No Abellio Scotrail themselves have indicated they will run steam outing trains on upto 8 lines and Transport Scotland have indicated Abellio will do a trial for a couple of years on at least 4 lines. Where they would get the steam trains from is open to the imagination.

 

[GatwickDepress]

No Abellio Scotrail themselves have indicated they will run steam outing trains on upto 8 lines and Transport Scotland have indicated Abellio will do a trial for a couple of years on at least 4 lines. Where they would get the steam trains from is open to the imagination.

The strategic steam reserve, obviously.

 

[Rick1984]

Shame the class 156 are only being refreshed, as they are really due a proper refurbishment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surprised they seem to be going for a mixed fleet, I'd have thought all 158s would make more sense, especially seeing as the WHL seems to be getting 158s rather than 156s- having just a handful of the 156s for the GSW routes seems slightly absurd, unless there's a serious issue with getting 158s passed down there.

 

[dubscottie]

Shame the class 156 are only being refreshed, as they are really due a proper refurbishment.

The original seats in the 156's are sound. For low speed journeys they don't need the hard, solid, hurt your neck, back and bum seats that someone thought would be good for every train.

For a journey through the Highlands, I would rather sit back in a comfy seat that be bold upright in some of the recent offerings..

 

[Altnabreac]

Surprised they seem to be going for a mixed fleet, I'd have thought all 158s would make more sense, especially seeing as the WHL seems to be getting 158s rather than 156s- having just a handful of the 156s for the GSW routes seems slightly absurd, unless there's a serious issue with getting 158s passed down there.

Remember in Glasgow they need to cover Shotts, Maryhill, East Kilbride and Barrhead as well as GSW until at least 2019 - 2021. These will probably be run by 156s from the same pool as Glasgow - Dumfries - Carlisle.

In the peak East Kilbride services run as 6 car services and are still full and standing so you need plenty of units to cover these diagrams.

Scotrail don't have enough units of any of their 3 DMU classes to run all services with 1 DMU class even after EGIP new stock and HSTs arrive.

So it seems likely they'll try and eliminate 1 from 3: the 170s.

Even here it's a little unclear if there are enough 158s to cover Fife Circle and the Dundee semi-fasts without sourcing more.

 

[Ground Frame]

Article in the Oban Times newspaper yesterday which says that refurbished 158 stock will replace the current 156 fleet. They will be rolled out 2017 through 2018.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Article in the Oban Times newspaper yesterday which says that refurbished 158 stock will replace the current 156 fleet. They will be rolled out 2017 through 2018.

Just on the Fort William / Oban route, as we already seem to know, or entirely? Is ScotRail's 158 fleet big enough to take over the routes to Stranner etc. as well?

 

[Altnabreac]

Just on the Fort William / Oban route, as we already seem to know, or entirely? Is ScotRail's 158 fleet big enough to take over the routes to Stranner etc. as well?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1944444&postcount=55

We know from the previously released powerpoint from Transport Scotland that Dumfries and Stranraer services will be operated by "Refreshed Class 156 DMUs"

We also know that Borders Rail timetable is dependent on class 158 DMU speeds.

So as far as we know the post December 2018 DMU usage for Abellio is something like this:-

1. Fully refurbished fleet of Class 158s with improved comfort, PRM compliance, on train catering and a Tourist ambassador on board:
   Far North
   Kyle of Lochalsh
   Inverness - Elgin?
   West Highland
   Edinburgh - Borders Line
2. Refreshed Class 156 DMUs:
   Glasgow - Dumfries - Carlisle
   Kilmarnock - Ayr - Stranraer
   Glasgow - Barrhead
   Glasgow - East Kilbride
   Glasgow - Anniesland
   Glasgow - Shotts - Edinburgh
3. Fully refurbished fleet of HSTs:
   Glasgow - Aberdeen
   Edinburgh - Aberdeen
   Glasgow - Inverness
   Edinburgh - Inverness
   Inverness - Aberdeen
4. As yet unspecified DMU - presumably either 170s or 158s:
   Edinburgh - Fife Circle
   Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast
   Edinburgh - Perth (non Inverness service)

The Class 156 requirement will then fall further as Shotts line is electrified in 2019 and other Glasgow suburban routes follow in years after.

 

[me123]

Fully refurbished fleet of Class 158s with improved comfort, PRM compliance, on train catering and a Tourist ambassador on board...
Inverness - Elgin?

Doubt it.

The plan IIRC for the Aberdeen-Inverness line is for an hourly service between the two cities, with half-hourly local trains Aberdeen-Inverurie and Inverness-Elgin. All this requires some infrastructure work to allow the services to operate.

The additional Inverness-Elgin services may be operated by the refreshed 158s (likely purely for convenience), but I highly doubt that these will be "tourist trains" with a tourist ambassador and on-board catering. These will effectively function as a Moray-Inverness commuter service. I suspect the low-density 158s will be more than adequate for this service at least in the medium term, with the current service being just 1tp2h.

 

[Altnabreac]

Doubt it.

The plan IIRC for the Aberdeen-Inverness line is for an hourly service between the two cities, with half-hourly local trains Aberdeen-Inverurie and Inverness-Elgin. All this requires some infrastructure work to allow the services to operate.

The additional Inverness-Elgin services may be operated by the refreshed 158s (likely purely for convenience), but I highly doubt that these will be "tourist trains" with a tourist ambassador and on-board catering. These will effectively function as a Moray-Inverness commuter service. I suspect the low-density 158s will be more than adequate for this service at least in the medium term, with the current service being just 1tp2h.

I suspect the "Tourism Ambassador" is the trolley operator with a map...

I agree there will probably not be a full catering service on the Elgin extras. However they are due to go hourly once the line improvements are complete.

The question is whether they will be operated by the Intercity HSTs or the scenic 158s. I doubt there will be a separate sub class of 2-3 units to operate the Elgins though so the scenic 158s are favourite to be operating it.

 

[route:oxford]

When it comes to winter weather...

Which performs better?

156 or 158?

How about the HST - are they fitted with snow deflectors?

 

[matchmaker]

When it comes to winter weather...

Which performs better?

156 or 158?

How about the HST - are they fitted with snow deflectors?

156. Tread brakes. More substantial snow deflectors. There are major restrictions on running 158s in snowy conditions due to braking problems.

No snow deflectors on Cl43.

 

[Rhydgaled]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1944444&postcount=55

We know from the previously released powerpoint from Transport Scotland that Dumfries and Stranraer services will be operated by "Refreshed Class 156 DMUs"

That's what I was refering to, but the post I was quoting apperared to be suggesting all 156s would be replaced by 158s.

So as far as we know the post December 2018 DMU usage for Abellio is something like this:-

1. Fully refurbished fleet of Class 158s with improved comfort, PRM compliance, on train catering and a Tourist ambassador on board:
   Far North
   Kyle of Lochalsh
   Inverness - Elgin?
   West Highland
   Edinburgh - Borders Line
2. Refreshed Class 156 DMUs:
   Glasgow - Dumfries - Carlisle
   Kilmarnock - Ayr - Stranraer
   Glasgow - Barrhead
   Glasgow - East Kilbride
   Glasgow - Anniesland
   Glasgow - Shotts - Edinburgh
3. Fully refurbished fleet of HSTs:
   Glasgow - Aberdeen
   Edinburgh - Aberdeen
   Glasgow - Inverness
   Edinburgh - Inverness
   Inverness - Aberdeen
4. As yet unspecified DMU - presumably either 170s or 158s:
   Edinburgh - Fife Circle
   Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast
   Edinburgh - Perth (non Inverness service)

The Class 156 requirement will then fall further as Shotts line is electrified in 2019 and other Glasgow suburban routes follow in years after.

Anyone know how many diagrams each of these service groups require? How many 156s will be spare for cascade, for example? Not looking like any 158s will leave ScotRail.

 

[158722]

That's what I was refering to, but the post I was quoting apperared to be suggesting all 156s would be replaced by 158s.

Anyone know how many diagrams each of these service groups require? How many 156s will be spare for cascade, for example? Not looking like any 158s will leave ScotRail.

I don't have my notes with all of the diagrams broken down, but if its 156s you are thinking about, any residual GSW services covering Newcastle, Carlisle, Dumfries, Stranraer, Kilmarnock & Glasgow C (including half-hourly services between the latter two stations) would require 9 units. East Kilbride, Barrhead & Shotts being electrified should eliminate the need for almost all 156s.

40 158s (IS's 158701-725 and current HA 158726-736/738-741 batch) should be sufficient for the Far North, Kyle, Elgin, West Highland, Borders and GSW services plus any non-HST services between Inverness & Aberdeen. I'd imagine it is this batch which is being looked at for the 'tourist upgrade'.

I'd predict the only 158s leaving by the end of the decade will be the extra 8 (782/86/89 & 867-871) along with all 156s and a sizeable chunk of the 170 fleet.

 

[Class 170101]

Edinburgh - Perth (non Inverness service)

Could this not be one of the 100km per year post 2019 that Transport Scotland end up wiring (as an extension from Dunblane)?

 

[158722]

Could this not be one of the 100km per year post 2019 that Transport Scotland end up wiring (as an extension from Dunblane)?

These services go via Fife, but yes, Dunblane, Perth, Fife Circle and Dundee owuld be next logical step - including some large hurdles to cross, namely the Forth and Tay...

 

[route:oxford]

These services go via Fife, but yes, Dunblane, Perth, Fife Circle and Dundee owuld be next logical step - including some large hurdles to cross, namely the Forth and Tay...

Well, there is one direct Perth to Edinburgh, via Stirling Scotrail service per day.

The 06:39 is useful for Gleneagles commuters - I'm told that the incoming service at Dunblane is now far busier since the significant improvements at Gleneagles.

The service in the opposite direction, clearly not a commuter service is the 21:33.

The Perth*-Glasgow services are:-

05:18
07:01

Glasgow-Perth* service at

23:37

*Starting/Terminating. Clearly there are through services too.

 

[Altnabreac]

Could this not be one of the 100km per year post 2019 that Transport Scotland end up wiring (as an extension from Dunblane)?

Once the Shotts / East Kilbride / Maryhill / Barrhead and possibly Kilmarnock lines are wired attention will shift to the East. You're probably looking at 2022 or so to finish the Strathclyde diesels off.

In the East you'd do Fife Circle first, then Kirkcaldy - Dundee and possibly Ladybank - Perth.

There's little point electrifying Dunblane - Perth in advance of Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen as there are very few Glasgow services that go north of Dunblane without continuing to Aberdeen or Inverness.

 

[edwin_m]

Part of the cleverness of refurbishing HSTs for the Scottish Intercity network is that they only need to be good for another decade or so after which most of these routes will be electrified. Whereas new intercity-spec diesel trains could well end up being off lease after that time, so leasing companies would be very nervous about buying them.

 

[route:oxford]

Once the Shotts / East Kilbride / Maryhill / Barrhead and possibly Kilmarnock lines are wired attention will shift to the East. You're probably looking at 2022 or so to finish the Strathclyde diesels off.

In the East you'd do Fife Circle first, then Kirkcaldy - Dundee and possibly Ladybank - Perth.

There's little point electrifying Dunblane - Perth in advance of Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen as there are very few Glasgow services that go north of Dunblane without continuing to Aberdeen or Inverness.

Well, salami electrification isn't such a bad thing.

I mentioned in my last post the services that start and terminate at Perth

There are also a few services that do

Glasgow-Dundee
Glasgow-Arbroath
Glasgow-Carnoustie

Aren't there?

 

[Class 170101]

Well, there is one direct Perth to Edinburgh, via Stirling Scotrail service per day.

The 06:39 is useful for Gleneagles commuters - I'm told that the incoming service at Dunblane is now far busier since the significant improvements at Gleneagles.

The service in the opposite direction, clearly not a commuter service is the 21:33.

The Perth*-Glasgow services are:-

05:18
07:01

Glasgow-Perth* service at

23:37

*Starting/Terminating. Clearly there are through services too.

The Highland Chieftain under bi-mode would be able to use the wires too, between London and Perth via Falkirk Grahamston and then use diesel between Perth and Inverness.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well, salami electrification isn't such a bad thing.

I mentioned in my last post the services that start and terminate at Perth

There are also a few services that do

Glasgow-Dundee
Glasgow-Arbroath
Glasgow-Carnoustie

Aren't there?

I make it 6 northbound (4 Dundee, 1 Arbroath, 1 Carnoustie) and 4 Southbound (all Dundee).

As such that's about 20% of the Perth - Dundee traffic and a bit less than that for Dunblane - Perth.

Compares poorly with Kirkcaldy - Dundee where you'd be able to run about 60% electric trains and Ladybank - Perth where it would be about 45%.

The logical order is to do Fife and Dundee first then work your way up from Dunblane to Inverurie without big time gaps otherwise you would have a lot of running under the wires in the interim.

 

[Class 170101]

The logical order is to do Fife and Dundee first then work your way up from Dunblane to Inverurie without big time gaps otherwise you would have a lot of running under the wires in the interim.

I am not convinced that is how it will happen in practise.

I can see Dunblane to Aberdeen via Perth and Dundee being wired first as there would be fewer difficult structures to electrify, I can see both Forth and Tay (in particular) Bridges being difficult to wire and thus requiring, perhaps, lengthy blockades to complete.

 

[Class83]

I am not convinced that is how it will happen in practise.

I can see Dunblane to Aberdeen via Perth and Dundee being wired first as there would be fewer difficult structures to electrify, I can see both Forth and Tay (in particular) Bridges being difficult to wire and thus requiring, perhaps, lengthy blockades to complete.

While the Forth Bridge is a large structure, is it really any more difficult to electrify than any boring lattice girder bridge? The Tay Bridge is basically a multi span lattice girder bridge. If electrification is going to go North of EGIP then the Forth Bridge will need to be wired somehow.

 

[me123]

While the Forth Bridge is a large structure, is it really any more difficult to electrify than any boring lattice girder bridge? The Tay Bridge is basically a multi span lattice girder bridge. If electrification is going to go North of EGIP then the Forth Bridge will need to be wired somehow.

Could there perhaps also be legal issues surrounding Forth Bridge electrification? I'm pretty sure that the structure has some form of legal protection, and has also been nominated to become a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Whilst the wires would be almost imperceptable at almost every angle and would indeed represent an improvement to the main purpose of the bridge existing (i.e. allowing rail traffic to cross the River Forth), I would be surprised if there wasn't some legal issue relating to electrifying the bridge.

 

[Altnabreac]

Could there perhaps also be legal issues surrounding Forth Bridge electrification? I'm pretty sure that the structure has some form of legal protection, and has also been nominated to become a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Whilst the wires would be almost imperceptable at almost every angle and would indeed represent an improvement to the main purpose of the bridge existing (i.e. allowing rail traffic to cross the River Forth), I would be surprised if there wasn't some legal issue relating to electrifying the bridge.

I understand the UNESCO nomination which is currently being assessed does not affect or prevent any future electrification. This is because it is being nominated as a working structure and thus should not impede it's primary use for transporting people and goods.

The technical issues are related to potential arcing onto some of the closer diagonal cross braces. Again I've been told there is nothing impossible, it just may not be cheap to make it work.

I am not convinced that is how it will happen in practise.

I can see Dunblane to Aberdeen via Perth and Dundee being wired first as there would be fewer difficult structures to electrify, I can see both Forth and Tay (in particular) Bridges being difficult to wire and thus requiring, perhaps, lengthy blockades to complete.

Essentially if you can't electrify the Forth Bridge then there is little point wiring anything north of Dunblane.

Business Case is such that Dunblane - Aberdeen comes after Fife electrification. This was all set out several years ago by Transport Scotland in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR) - Project 6 Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network.

Phase 3 - Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle;
Phase 4 - Electrification from Dunblane to Aberdeen; and
Phase 5 – Electrification from Perth to Inverness.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j10194c-11.htm