Scotrail "Scenic Stock" discussion thread

[Class 170101]

Just because Transport Scotland wish to construct this way doesn't mean it is the best way to construct in practise.

Take Royston to Cambridge, Ipswich to Norwich and Bishops Stortford to Shepreth Branch Jn. All were planned to be wired in that order by British Rail as that was seen as the most efficient way to complete the task.

In practise because of politics
Bishops Stortford to Cambridge was authorised first, then Ipswich to Norwich and finally Royston to Shepreth Branch Jn was then done on the cheap. Money was spent again years later making the final stretch fit for purpose.

 

[Altnabreac]

Just because Transport Scotland wish to construct this way doesn't mean it is the best way to construct in practise.

Take Royston to Cambridge, Ipswich to Norwich and Bishops Stortford to Shepreth Branch Jn. All were planned to be wired in that order by British Rail as that was seen as the most efficient way to complete the task.

In practise because of politics
Bishops Stortford to Cambridge was authorised first, then Ipswich to Norwich and finally Royston to Shepreth Branch Jn was then done on the cheap. Money was spent again years later making the final stretch fit for purpose.

I agree that plans can change in theory but lets have a look at the evidence:

1. Transport Scotland have published formal plans saying they plan to electrify the Fife lines first.
2. Fife Circle and Edinburgh - Dundee are busier / longer services as they are used by commuters rather than just Intercity travellers so electrifying Fife lines frees up more DMUs.
3. HSTs are being refurbished for the longer Intercity routes so better to electrify other DMU run routes to enable more expensive Turbostars to go off lease first.
4. Political priority is to improve links from Edinburgh as it is the capital and the politicians spend all their time commuting on trains to Edinburgh.
5. Electrifying Fife lines first leads to much higher percentages of services electrified and less DMU running under the wires.
6. Electrifying Fife lines first allows more Bi-Mode IEPs (London - Aberdeen) to run on electric mode for longer.
7. Political priority for Aberdeen politicians is improving links to northern England - especially Newcastle and Leeds which provide a lot of workers for the oil industry. Electrifying Fife lines allows faster journey times and more electric running for Aberdeen - Newcastle trains.

Against this your suggested reasons for electrifying Dunblane - Perth - Dundee first are:

1. Forth Bridge might be tricky to wire.
2. 1tpd IEP to Inverness can run from Stirling - Perth on electric mode.
3. 2-3tpd from Perth - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Stirling can be replaced by electric traction.
4. 4tpd from Dundee - Glasgow can be replaced by electric traction.

Yes either option is always possible but there is very little good reason why Dunblane - Perth would be electrified before the Fife lines are.

 

[route:oxford]

How about the soon to be scrapped Eurostar set coaches for scenic stock?

They have pretty huge windows and can be formed into fixed sets of a suitable length with Schafenburg Couplers at each end.

Something for the refurbed Class 73s to haul when they aren't busy with the sleepers?

 

[Rhydgaled]

How about the soon to be scrapped Eurostar set coaches for scenic stock.

Are they seriously scrapping Eurostar sets? I thought they were expanding the fleet with the new Siemens units, not replacing some of the current fleet.

 

[route:oxford]

Are they seriously scrapping Eurostar sets? I thought they were expanding the fleet with the new Siemens units, not replacing some of the current fleet.

Just going with the content of the Velaro UK construction thread.

 

[47802]

Just going with the content of the Velaro UK construction thread.

I don't think these would be particularly suitable as scenic stock not least because they have articulated bogies through most of the train so adjusting coach lengths or maintenance would not be easy for starters. I'm sure the proposed DMU fleet will be good enough for the job without pushing extra costs on what are presumably highly subsidised lines.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only talk of Eurostar sets being scrapped are the shorter NOL sets which are not used on Eurostar services, but were usec on French Domestic services.

The major point made in the press announcements (shown in the Eurostar new stock thread) about only 14 of the existing units now being refurbished is quite a big hint that some are to be scrapped, I'd have thought.

 

[47802]

The major point made in the press announcements (shown in the Eurostar new stock thread) about only 14 of the existing units now being refurbished is quite a big hint that some are to be scrapped, I'd have thought.

Ok I hadn't noticed that they are now ordering more e320's and possibly retiring some of the 373's, but either way does that make 373 coaches suitable as scenic trains I think not personally.

And going slightly of the point it raises a good point regarding those who bang on about electric trains must last 40 years Diesel Trains 30 years blah blah etc, clearly Eurostar have come up with a business case which suggests otherwise, presumably having more trains with greater capacity and ability to travel to more destinations override retaining all the 373's.

 

[Class 170101]

I agree that plans can change in theory but lets have a look at the evidence:

1. Transport Scotland have published formal plans saying they plan to electrify the Fife lines first.
2. Fife Circle and Edinburgh - Dundee are busier / longer services as they are used by commuters rather than just Intercity travellers so electrifying Fife lines frees up more DMUs.
3. HSTs are being refurbished for the longer Intercity routes so better to electrify other DMU run routes to enable more expensive Turbostars to go off lease first.
4. Political priority is to improve links from Edinburgh as it is the capital and the politicians spend all their time commuting on trains to Edinburgh.
5. Electrifying Fife lines first leads to much higher percentages of services electrified and less DMU running under the wires.
6. Electrifying Fife lines first allows more Bi-Mode IEPs (London - Aberdeen) to run on electric mode for longer.
7. Political priority for Aberdeen politicians is improving links to northern England - especially Newcastle and Leeds which provide a lot of workers for the oil industry. Electrifying Fife lines allows faster journey times and more electric running for Aberdeen - Newcastle trains.

Against this your suggested reasons for electrifying Dunblane - Perth - Dundee first are:

1. Forth Bridge might be tricky to wire.
2. 1tpd IEP to Inverness can run from Stirling - Perth on electric mode.
3. 2-3tpd from Perth - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Stirling can be replaced by electric traction.
4. 4tpd from Dundee - Glasgow can be replaced by electric traction.

Yes either option is always possible but there is very little good reason why Dunblane - Perth would be electrified before the Fife lines are.

Not quite what I had in mind.

If you wire Dunblane to Perth and Aberdeen first rather than via Fife to Aberdeen it would be possible to run Glasgow to Aberdeen under the wires and also Edinburgh to Aberdeen under the wires, accepting the fact they would be diverted via Stirling and Perth rather than via Fife for a period of time. (remember this notion already applies between Manchester and Scotland with TPE running via Wigan v Bolton but I accept some were unhappy about this and would be unhappy about Edinburgh to Aberdeen services being diverted via Stirling).

Glasgow to Aberdeen services would all go electric. East Coast would either remain Bi-mode via Fife with Diesel from Edinburgh to Dundee or electric via Stirling. Therefore the Dundee to Edinburgh services plus Fife Circle would remain diesel (or replaced by bus) whilst the work is taking place to wire the more difficult structures en route.

 

[route:oxford]

If you wire Dunblane to Perth and Aberdeen first rather than via Fife to Aberdeen it would be possible to run Glasgow to Aberdeen

Not all services on the route North go all the way to Aberdeen, here are the services from Stirling:-

08:36 - Dundee
09:35 - Dundee
16:39 - Arbroath
17:45 - Carnoustie
19:36 - Dundee
22:25 - Perth
23:33 - Dundee
00:05 - Perth

 

[Altnabreac]

Not quite what I had in mind.

If you wire Dunblane to Perth and Aberdeen first rather than via Fife to Aberdeen it would be possible to run Glasgow to Aberdeen under the wires and also Edinburgh to Aberdeen under the wires, accepting the fact they would be diverted via Stirling and Perth rather than via Fife for a period of time. (remember this notion already applies between Manchester and Scotland with TPE running via Wigan v Bolton but I accept some were unhappy about this and would be unhappy about Edinburgh to Aberdeen services being diverted via Stirling).

Glasgow to Aberdeen services would all go electric. East Coast would either remain Bi-mode via Fife with Diesel from Edinburgh to Dundee or electric via Stirling. Therefore the Dundee to Edinburgh services plus Fife Circle would remain diesel (or replaced by bus) whilst the work is taking place to wire the more difficult structures en route.

The problem with that plan is that there is no spare capacity on the south lines from Haymarket to Newbridge Junction and Winchburgh capacity is also very limited. This will become even tighter in a few years when Winchburgh station opens.

Transport Scotland are currently trying to increase usage of the north lines and decrease usage of the south lines so that service pattern just wouldn't work unless the Dalmeny Chord were constructed. Although I suspect it will be revived in the medium term, at present it's not officially planned to be constructed.

There's then the reduction in capacity for Leuchars to think of as well as the extra units you'd need for early morning and evenings when the Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast and Edinburgh - Aberdeen services are merged together.

Even if we spend £250m on a new chord and find a load of extra DMUs to run the semi fasts all night you would still be proposing wiring a longer distance for trains which are shorter, less frequent, carry fewer passengers and have fewer stops so the faster acceleration post electrification is less useful. There just doesn't seem any good reason to do it that way?

 

[swt_passenger]

Ok I hadn't noticed that they are now ordering more e320's and possibly retiring some of the 373's, but either way does that make 373 coaches suitable as scenic trains I think not personally.

I don't think so too, just pointing out that those saying some are to be scrapped may have a point.

The idea that no trains must ever be retired, shall we say 'earlier than expected', is quite popular here, but I just don't get it...

 

[Rhydgaled]

And going slightly of the point it raises a good point regarding those who bang on about electric trains must last 40 years Diesel Trains 30 years blah blah etc, clearly Eurostar have come up with a business case which suggests otherwise, presumably having more trains with greater capacity and ability to travel to more destinations override retaining all the 373's.

The idea that no trains must ever be retired, shall we say 'earlier than expected', is quite popular here, but I just don't get it...

One word. Waste. If there is life left in an asset, with all the energy and materials that have gone into producing it and will be required to replace it, why scrap it? Now do you get it?

On a firm-by-firm, route-by-route, basis there may be a business case for replacment before the asset's life is used up. Taking a wider view however, nationwide (or even, in the case of Eurostars, Europe-wide), then surely it makes more sense to find a home for non-expired stock made redundant elsewhere than to build new stock. Example: with IC225s and MML electrification we have a choice, use the IC225s somewhere or build new for the MML and scrap the IC225s. Personally, I say we should avoid the new stock option.

I agree with one thing though: ScotRail scenic lines are not the answer if you are looking for a home for 186mph electric trains with 14/18 coaches.

 

[tbtc]

I don't have my notes with all of the diagrams broken down, but if its 156s you are thinking about, any residual GSW services covering Newcastle, Carlisle, Dumfries, Stranraer, Kilmarnock & Glasgow C (including half-hourly services between the latter two stations) would require 9 units. East Kilbride, Barrhead & Shotts being electrified should eliminate the need for almost all 156s.

40 158s (IS's 158701-725 and current HA 158726-736/738-741 batch) should be sufficient for the Far North, Kyle, Elgin, West Highland, Borders and GSW services plus any non-HST services between Inverness & Aberdeen. I'd imagine it is this batch which is being looked at for the 'tourist upgrade'.

I'd predict the only 158s leaving by the end of the decade will be the extra 8 (782/86/89 & 867-871) along with all 156s and a sizeable chunk of the 170 fleet.

Interesting figures.

I'm torn between thinking that with EGIP and the HST cascade, ScotRail will end up with just one DMU class (158) or two (158 and 156) once the remaining Glasgow Central commitments are done (Shotts, EK etc).

I certainly see a downgrade for Fife commuters anyhow (based on the gut feeling that around twenty remaining 170s on expensive leases will be a priority to shunt off compared to keeping a bigger fleet of cheaper 158s that can interwork with Tweedbank etc).

In the East you'd do Fife Circle first, then Kirkcaldy - Dundee and possibly Ladybank - Perth.

There's little point electrifying Dunblane - Perth in advance of Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen as there are very few Glasgow services that go north of Dunblane without continuing to Aberdeen or Inverness.

Essentially if you can't electrify the Forth Bridge then there is little point wiring anything north of Dunblane

Agreed.

I thought that this was so self evident that I'm surprised we are even debating it.

Part of the cleverness of refurbishing HSTs for the Scottish Intercity network is that they only need to be good for another decade or so after which most of these routes will be electrified. Whereas new intercity-spec diesel trains could well end up being off lease after that time, so leasing companies would be very nervous about buying them.

True.

How about the soon to be scrapped Eurostar set coaches for scenic stock?

They have pretty huge windows and can be formed into fixed sets of a suitable length with Schafenburg Couplers at each end.

Something for the refurbed Class 73s to haul when they aren't busy with the sleepers?

Can't see it happening. For all the positive PR about tourist trains I think the reality is going to be a 158 with a few seats taken out of it (to align with windows).

All the other stuff sounds fanciful now.

Not all services on the route North go all the way to Aberdeen, here are the services from Stirling:-

08:36 - Dundee
09:35 - Dundee
16:39 - Arbroath
17:45 - Carnoustie
19:36 - Dundee
22:25 - Perth
23:33 - Dundee
00:05 - Perth

Three of those eight (maybe four out of eight) are just placing journeys rather than any huge demand to get to Perth just after midnight.

And unless you are planning on wiring from Dunblane to Arbroath/ Carnoustie before even touching Fife then you can forget another couple of those services.

Edinburgh to Fife is a much more important market (six or seven trains an hour) than the line north of Dunblane, sorry.

 

[47802]

One word. Waste. If there is life left in an asset, with all the energy and materials that have gone into producing it and will be required to replace it, why scrap it? Now do you get it?

On a firm-by-firm, route-by-route, basis there may be a business case for replacment before the asset's life is used up. Taking a wider view however, nationwide (or even, in the case of Eurostars, Europe-wide), then surely it makes more sense to find a home for non-expired stock made redundant elsewhere than to build new stock. Example: with IC225s and MML electrification we have a choice, use the IC225s somewhere or build new for the MML and scrap the IC225s. Personally, I say we should avoid the new stock option.

I agree with one thing though: ScotRail scenic lines are not the answer if you are looking for a home for 186mph electric trains with 14/18 coaches.

Utter Nonsense if there a good business case to get rid and replace then that's what should be done regardless of age, the railway isn't some kind of preserved railway for old trains, although some enthusiasts seem to think it is. By rights HST's should be heading for the scrapyard now but the new Scottish franchise holder has produced a business case to keep them for another 10 years, which is OK it can work either way, depending on a variety of factors, but some blind statement that all electric trains etc. should last 40 years is ridiculous.

If the new franchise holder wanted something more exotic for the Scenic trains then clearly the easiest option would be a few more HST's, but clearly its been decided that 158/156 are adequate and cost effective for the Job, end of.

 

[route:oxford]

I agree with one thing though: ScotRail scenic lines are not the answer if you are looking for a home for 186mph electric trains with 14/18 coaches.

An electric unit is definitely unsuitable for a route to Mallaig.

But if coaches are going to go straight to the cutters torch, might as well make up a few 6/7 car sets that can be hauled by a Class 73.