Scotrail "Scenic Stock" discussion thread

[61653 HTAFC]

To avoid cluttering up the related HST and EGIP EMU threads, how about a separate discussion thread?

From discussion on here so far, the options seem to be:
Modifying a sub-fleet from existing DMUs
Would require a mixed fleet or the clearing of 158s on the WHL/GSW. Cheaper than some of the other options, but it could be said to lack ambition.

Adding a few extra vehicles to the HST mod contract, running with 43s or Loco+DVT
Might allow a more ambitious 'observation car' type vehicle to be included, but running costs would be higher.

A new-build fleet of specialist DMUs
Would be 'square pegs in square holes' but expensive. One option might be to co-operate with Serco on their sleeper stock order from CAF- if some of the tooling and components could be shared this might bring costs down a little.

Something else
Let the blue-sky thinking/wibble (delete as appropriate) commence...

 

[Big Chris]

This is a lovely idea but somewhat unrealistic considering the unnecessary costs to implement and the low ridership on these lines compared to many lines elsewhere. The current DMU's do a perfectly satisfactory job.

 

[sprinterguy]

Note that this is what Abellio have so far released with regards to the scenic trains:

Working with partners to attract international attention to the scenic beauty of Scotland’s railways with major upgrades to Scotland’s scenic trains to enhance the tourist experience:
•Specially refurbished trains to align seats with windows
•More luggage, cycle and ski storage
•Additional service to Oban in peak season
•A Tourist Ambassador and improved on board catering that showcases local Scottish produce
•Special events in the low season to attract customers

So new build stock is out of the question.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is a lovely idea but somewhat unrealistic considering the unnecessary costs to implement and the low ridership on these lines compared to many lines elsewhere. The current DMU's do a perfectly satisfactory job.

The scenic trains are going ahead, but will probably be refurbished versions of the current DMUs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks for reposting the info from Abellio. I guess what remains then, is exactly what the refurbishment will entail. From the above it would seem unlikely, but if it was required to include 'observation car' type section would this be possible with 156s or 158s? I'm not an engineer so am not aware of the various things that would have to be considered.

One thing that might be worth considering would be reforming the units into permanent 3&4 car sets, removing the redundant cabs to provide more internal space.

 

[sprinterguy]

worth considering would be reforming the units into permanent 3&4 car sets, removing the redundant cabs to provide more internal space.

With the West Highland, the most you could do is reform them into 3-car sets: The platforms south from Crianlarich can handle a maximum of 6 x 23 metre carriages, the platforms north of there a maximum of 4 x 23 metres and of course the trains split at Crianlarich.

Scotrail did operate hybrid 3-car class 156 units on the West Highland for a couple of summers in the nineties. I think that the current arrangement of 2-car units works quite well, though. You can maximise the train length on the Fort William and Mallaig portions during the busy summer season by using pairs of units, and during the winter there’s (generally) no need for more than 2 carriages on either the Oban or Fort William trains.

 

[Big Chris]

Sorry I should have been more specific I was referring to the new build or massive adaptation of ageing stock. I can see that moving a few seats around is not exactly a massive job in comparison.

 

[Altnabreac]

Here's a free idea for them - A virtual observation car.

All stock is required to have forward facing cab CCTV and WiFi fitted as part of the standard tender requirements.

With a bit of technical wizardry could a live stream of the driver's eye view be provided streamed to an app on your laptop or tablet?

A bit like the AVE stock have in Spain except without the need for installing screens.

Would be dead cheap as no extra hardware needed and could be very popular.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sorry I should have been more specific I was referring to the new build or massive adaptation of ageing stock. I can see that moving a few seats around is not exactly a massive job in comparison.

Oh, fair enough, apologies for the misunderstanding - in which case I would tend to agree!

 

[Murph]

To create a true scenic train from what's going to be available, something like a 2+5 or 2+6 HST seems like the obvious choice to me. It could run on 1 of the 2 power cars much of the time, bringing the 2nd online only for climbing gradients, to push the running costs down.

Advantages:

Fantastic space if they are converted to have all bay seating aligned with the windows.
Proper buffet car for the enhanced catering.
Much better ambience in the quiet and smooth carriages, than in a DMU.
Self-rescuing in the event of problems with a single engine.
Two proper luggage van spaces.
Plenty of available stock and maintenance expertise. The level of availability of the stock could allow a higher than normal number of spare sets, possibly pushing maintenance costs down by reducing the need for rapid overnight maintenance.
Stock commonality with the ScotRail InterCity fleet, despite different seating layout in 2nd class, reducing maintenance costs.

I don't see a strong need to create the skylight cars suggested by some, as the viewing angles are pretty good from a seated position in a mark 3, and should be more than adequate to get a good view of the landscape.

 

[59CosG95]

To create a true scenic train from what's going to be available, something like a 2+5 or 2+6 HST seems like the obvious choice to me. It could run on 1 of the 2 power cars much of the time, bringing the 2nd online only for climbing gradients, to push the running costs down.

Advantages:

Fantastic space if they are converted to have all bay seating aligned with the windows.
Proper buffet car for the enhanced catering.
Much better ambience in the quiet and smooth carriages, than in a DMU.
Self-rescuing in the event of problems with a single engine.
Two proper luggage van spaces.
Plenty of available stock and maintenance expertise. The level of availability of the stock could allow a higher than normal number of spare sets, possibly pushing maintenance costs down by reducing the need for rapid overnight maintenance.
Stock commonality with the ScotRail InterCity fleet, despite different seating layout in 2nd class, reducing maintenance costs.

I don't see a strong need to create the skylight cars suggested by some, as the viewing angles are pretty good from a seated position in a mark 3, and should be more than adequate to get a good view of the landscape.

Should be a good use for the 67s, rather than HSTs!

 

[Murph]

Should be a good use for the 67s, rather than HSTs!

The HSTs have better route availability (RA5), avoid the need for a DVT, and are self-rescuing for engine failures.

 

[TheEdge]

FEAs fitted with seats. Best views.

 

[47802]

The HSTs have better route availability (RA5), avoid the need for a DVT, and are self-rescuing for engine failures.

And if any HST were going to be used as Scenic trains I think that would have been mentioned, plus the quoted number of HST's to be used doesn't seem to add up to any significant number being used on the Scenic routes, so I think the Loco Hauled and HST fan's can move along, nothing to see here.

 

[Taunton]

The difficulty with the West Highland line is that for 8 months of the year the loads are decidedly thin, while in the summer they increase tremendously, and furthermore with passengers with much hiking gear, bicycles, etc. DMUs, with the formation length sensibly assigned (something that seems a great challenge on the privatised railway), do seem a better option than fixed-length HSTs.

 

[Murph]

The difficulty with the West Highland line is that for 8 months of the year the loads are decidedly thin, while in the summer they increase tremendously, and furthermore with passengers with much hiking gear, bicycles, etc. DMUs, with the formation length sensibly assigned (something that seems a great challenge on the privatised railway), do seem a better option than fixed-length HSTs.

HST length can be varied seasonally, if needed, and they have the 2 van spaces for all the bikes, hiking gear, etc.

 

[starrymarkb]

Something like this?

Or if you are feeling posh the 7 car version with buffet car

(Mechanically the 7 car is two single ended 3 car sets sandwiching an unpowered buffet car)

IIRC the total build was 6 3 car sets and 4 7 car

 

[theblackwatch]

I suspect any HST use on the WHL would be confined to something like Summer Saturday 'crowd busters', in a similar manner to East Midlands Trains' Scarborough train. All the info released by Abellio/Transport Scotland refers to them being used between the main cities - if they were planning on using them on all the 'scenic services', they would be shouting about it.

 

[Murph]

I agree that the information we have thus far points to HSTs for the new ScotRail InterCity operation. We don't have any specific information on just what they are intending for the scenic services, in terms of rolling stock, only a few bullet points on the service features intended.

What I see, is that there will be many more HST sets becoming available in the not too distant future, beyond those needed for IC use. To me, they could be an ideal opportunity to provide the type of service talked about for the scenic trains, being very well suited to long distance comfort, window-aligned seating, plenty of luggage space for cyclists and hikers, and having proper facilities for the enhanced catering talked about.

IC should obviously get the priority for HST sets becoming available, but I sense a larger opportunity for their use here.

 

[sprinterguy]

I agree that the information we have thus far points to HSTs for the new ScotRail InterCity operation. We don't have any specific information on just what they are intending for the scenic services, in terms of rolling stock, only a few bullet points on the service features intended.

What I see, is that there will be many more HST sets becoming available in the not too distant future, beyond those needed for IC use. To me, they could be an ideal opportunity to provide the type of service talked about for the scenic trains, being very well suited to long distance comfort, window-aligned seating, plenty of luggage space for cyclists and hikers, and having proper facilities for the enhanced catering talked about.

IC should obviously get the priority for HST sets becoming available, but I sense a larger opportunity for their use here.

Realistically? Great, big 2,250hp engines on the West Highland, or the newly re-opened Borders line, and geared for 125mph when the West Highland, North Highland etc are rarely (never?) more than 50mph max (That's quite some "refurbishment" to change the gearing on an HST power car)?

Plus, how do you factor in the portion working on the West Highland line? Unless you run twice the frequency up to Crianlarich, you're restricted to a 1+2 HST formation, perhaps 1+3 with bits hanging off the end of platforms, and you can't afford to get one half the wrong way round?

I feel guilty that I seem to keep urinating on other peoples' processions in this (and similar) thread. I do love the modern panoramic trains that they have cruising around the mountainous passes of mainland Europe. However, I believe that we need to be realistic in interpretating the evidence that has been given us regarding the Scotrail franchise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FEAs fitted with seats. Best views.

Ah, yes, follow the example of the 15 inch gauge model. Just remember to lean in where the foliage gets densest, and we'll be okay.

 

[starrymarkb]

That's why I suggest the FINK - It's basically a standard service train but with a few features for the tourists (like the Roof Windows) - As it is it will almost fit UK gauge (would need the underfloor skirting and low floor sections removed)

Ok a diesel version wouldn't be as powerful (a 7 car electic FINK has about 4000hp on tap for the steep Brunig Pass) but would be suitable for general work when not on tourist routes.

 

[Murph]

Realistically? Great, big 2,250hp engines on the West Highland, or the newly re-opened Borders line, and geared for 125mph when the West Highland, North Highland etc are rarely (never?) more than 50mph max (That's quite some "refurbishment" to change the gearing on an HST power car)?

I don't think the gearing would be much of a problem. HSTs get up to 50mph easily enough, and it's a long distance between stations. 2250hp isn't such overkill, comparing it against around 1500hp for a 4-car DMU.

Plus, how do you factor in the portion working on the West Highland line? Unless you run twice the frequency up to Chrianlarich, you're restricted to a 1+2 HST formation, perhaps 1+3 with bits hanging off the end of platforms, and you can't afford to get one half the wrong way round?

That's a trickier problem to solve. The power cars don't need to be berthed in the platforms, as long as the signalling would allow them to stop beyond the platform limits. Splitting a HST in normal service isn't a likely thing, so I'm not suggesting that.

There would certainly be issues to address, but the HST does tick a lot of boxes as a good scenic train.

 

[sprinterguy]

That's why I suggest the FINK - It's basically a standard service train but with a few features for the tourists (like the Roof Windows) - As it is it will almost fit UK gauge (would need the underfloor skirting and low floor sections removed)

The three car variant is absolutely what I was hoping for when I first saw the scenic train initiative outlined in the Scotrail ITT.

It's a shame, therefore, that new rolling stock isn't in the offing (Not that, as you might expect from my username, I have any problems with the prolonged use of 156s or 158s!).

 

[WatcherZero]

Abellio apparently in early stages of planning steam trains for upto 8 Highland routes, these would be in addition to the 'Scenic' spec trains.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/abellio-planning-steam-trains-for-scotland-1-3569868

A new age of steam is being lined up to make a comeback on Scotland’s railways, conjuring up the magic of the days when making a trip was accompanied by a sense of *excitement, the chug of the engine, the sound of the whistle and smoke puffing out of the loco’s chimney.

New ScotRail operator Abellio is planning a steam renaissance which could see extra tourist trains on many rural routes to showcase Scotland’s dramatic scenery.

 

[route:oxford]

Abellio apparently in early stages of planning steam trains for upto 8 Highland routes, these would be in addition to the 'Scenic' spec trains.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/abellio-planning-steam-trains-for-scotland-1-3569868

Was just reading that...

Let's hope it is implemented sensibly without any disruption to the core role of the railways in Scotland - taking people who live in Scotland to the places they want to go in Scotland quickly and on time.

 

[158722]

Expect this to be covered by a refurbishment of the existing batch of Haymarket 158s (158726-736/738-741) possibly along the lines of what has already been done on the Inverness batch (701-725), which are also likely to feature in an improvement package. Thats 40 units to cover the Kyle, Far North, Invernet services, possibly some residual Inverness-Aberdeen, the West Highland (for which clearance works have been done for 158s, but paperwork not signed off) and the Glasgow South Western (which from around 2020 will be just the Newcastle-Carlisle-Kilmarnock-Glasgow/Stranraer services as Barrhead and East Kilbride should be wired about then). By then, enough surplus 170s will be around to see off the 158s from Central belt suburban, so 20x 158s for Inverness, 20x more for Corkerhill for WHL & GSW - all subject to a refurbishment to 'tourist train' standard.

 

[jopsuk]

That's a trickier problem to solve. The power cars don't need to be berthed in the platforms, as long as the signalling would allow them to stop beyond the platform limits.

The stations are the passing loops. Overhanging the platforms would foul the points.

 

[higthomas]

With regards the steam train idea, there seem to be issues with track capacity. So here is an idea. Just make the steam trains a standard timetabled service, which anyone can board with a standard valid national rail ticket, just perhaps with enhanced dining facilities for the kind of people that partake of them on railtours.

 

[WatcherZero]

Think the issue is that on single track sections they would have to cancel the following path to ensure the train has time to clear the single line section.

 

[southern442]

How about 442's fitted with diesel engines?
Granted they will need a lot of work done, particularly around the vestibule area, but they have the luggage space sorted out because of their GatEx work, and they have a large capacity for the tourist season.

 

[starrymarkb]

I knew the 442s would be mentioned. And Not Going to Happen!