Scotrail to remove Peak Fares - six month pilot

[kez19]

It's more expensive to make a longer journey? Who'd have thought it!

not really if I’m roughly 1h 30min each way (give or take)

Couple months back I was £20 single to Dundee from Aberdeen, I had been better to have booked Megabus back.

If you speak of longer journeys well I rather pay £56 with LNER in advance than Scotrail and that for a 3 hour journey to that of Scotrail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti has no morning peak on Fridays.

Removing the Monday morning peak would also greatly help.

 

[hexagon789]

It's a bit of a pity that this isn't a "clean" experiment i.e. without any sneaky withdrawals of better value fares, but it will be interesting none the less.

That's exactly why it has been withdrawn, so the trial comparison is purely peak vs off-peak without any further complexities.

 

[kez19]

Whilst I might not commute more, I do now leave earlier, given there are cheap bus fares in England. So that is an example of change based on price.

Where are you starting from?

Where are you starting from?

Dundee that’s where I stay.

 

[yorksrob]

That's exactly why it has been withdrawn, so the trial comparison is purely peak vs off-peak without any further complexities.

It's rather a messy comparison though, particularly if you were looking to extend to regions where super off-peak is a more prominent part of the fares mix.

If you want a "clean" comparison, you'd be better off undertaking one change compared to the status quo, rather than two changes (abolishing peak and super off-peak). How do you know which change is affecting what ?

 

[kez19]

Examples tickets (9 October)
0900 Dundee to Edinburgh (return 1445) - £22.40
Glasgow £32.30
Aberdeen £25.30

All trains for return is set on site as 1445 information correct as of today

 

[Haywain]

Examples tickets (9 October)
0900 Dundee to Edinburgh (return 1445) - £22.40
Glasgow £32.30
Aberdeen £25.30

All trains for return is set on site as 1445 information correct as of today

Do you actually realise that Glasgow is more distant from Dundee than Edinburgh? That's likely to be why it costs more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's rather a messy comparison though, particularly if you were looking to extend to regions where super off-peak is a more prominent part of the fares mix.

If you want a "clean" comparison, you'd be better off undertaking one change compared to the status quo, rather than two changes (abolishing peak and super off-peak). How do you know which change is affecting what ?

The clean comparison is what they have done - that is, that it always costs the same.

 

[hexagon789]

Examples tickets (9 October)
0900 Dundee to Edinburgh (return 1445) - £22.40
Glasgow £32.30
Aberdeen £25.30

All trains for return is set on site as 1445 information correct as of today

Glasgow is the furthest and Edinburgh is the closest by distance; the fares reflect this.

 

[kez19]

Glasgow is the furthest and Edinburgh is the closest by distance; the fares reflect this.

Yet I could say Edinburgh or Aberdeen would be dearer than Glasgow but it’s not, so how are fares calculated then I’m guessing it’s distance?

I would have placed Edinburgh being dearer for fares since it’s the capital in Scotland whilst Aberdeen and Glasgow are not (that was my thinking).

 

[hexagon789]

Yet I could say Edinburgh or Aberdeen would be dearer than Glasgow but it’s not, so how are fares calculated then I’m guessing it’s distance?

I would have placed Edinburgh being dearer for fares since it’s the capital in Scotland whilst Aberdeen and Glasgow are not (that was my thinking).

Distance based pricing, certainly for long-distance travel, was formally abolished under BR in favour of market based pricing, but for shorter distances I think there is still a vague correlation to distance.

 

[kez19]

Distance based pricing, certainly for long-distance travel, was formally abolished under BR in favour of market based pricing, but for shorter distances I think there is still a vague correlation to distance.

I see your point as when I googled Glasgow even though via car I can understand the distance, as in terms of short distance I remember under First group I could go to Perth for £10 return those days are gone.

 

[SargeNpton]

I'm not sure I can agree with this part.

From my regular travels, a significant majority of passengers on many ScotRail services use mTickets.

Then I would say paper tickets are the next most common, then finally smartcards.

mTickets or eTickets? There is a significant difference between the two.

mTicket use is dropping but eTicket use is increasing.

 

[hexagon789]

I see your point as when I googled Glasgow even though via car I can understand the distance, as in terms of short distance I remember under First group I could go to Perth for £10 return those days are gone.

An Off-Peak Day Return is £9.90, so still under £10.

 

[kez19]

An Off-Peak Day Return is £9.90, so still under £10.

For now it is.. before we are speaking at least £15 return.

The only thing I’m confused with was the 0915 you could only board trains but I’m guessing that’s scrapped for now too?

 

[DelW]

Might it not also increase loadings on the already-busiest peak hour trains? After all, the whole point of off-peak fares is to encourage people to travel at less busy times!

It might, but I imagine that will be one aspect of the trial, to see to what extent that does happen. I'd expect the effect to be limited, as I think most people travel at the time that suits them, and pay whichever fare applies. I can't imagine much of the leisure day out market leaving home at 07:00 just because the fare is now the same as at 10:00, though they might (say) travel at 09:15 rather than delay until 09:45.

No doubt if peak crowding gets worse, Scotrail will take account of that at the end of the trial.

It would be interesting to know what criteria Scotrail have set for the trial to be considered successful. Obviously if journeys and revenue increase, and by more than any cost increase, that will be a success. But if say ridership goes up but revenue down? Or indeed vice versa? I can imagine that a return to the status quo ante at the end of the trial might be quite unpopular once people have become used to the one price system.

 

[kez19]

Do you actually realise that Glasgow is more distant from Dundee than Edinburgh? That's likely to be why it costs more.

My understanding was and I was treating in a way to England ie London being the capital and that the fares would be dearer to Edinburgh (since its Scotlands capital), to those of Glasgow and Aberdeen.

I looked on Google via car to get a better understanding at least but yes I do see a difference in distance.

Glasgow 1hr 30
Aberdeen/Edinburgh between 1hr 10-20 min (give or take), if timing difference is only that of 10-15 mins.

 

[hexagon789]

For now it is.. before we are speaking at least £15 return.

The only thing I’m confused with was the 0915 you could only board trains but I’m guessing that’s scrapped for now too?

It was £9.90 before the trial. The difference is that the Anytime Day Return at £14.40 is now also £9.90 and the Super Off-Peak Day Return at £8.00 is not available now.

With the Off-Peak Day Return, you couldn't board at Dundee between 0429 and 0915, now you can.

 

[Gaelan]

mTickets or eTickets? There is a significant difference between the two.

mTickets. There are no eTickets for ScotRail, beyond possibly ones priced by another TOC. (I'm not particularly sure of the nuance here.)

mTicket use is dropping but eTicket use is increasing.

I'd be quite surprised if this were the case in Scotland, as the only eTickets one gets around here are on the cross-border operators.

 

[Haywain]

My understanding was and I was treating in a way to England ie London being the capital and that the fares would be dearer to Edinburgh (since its Scotlands capital), to those of Glasgow and Aberdeen.

You appear to have a misunderstanding.

I looked on Google via car to get a better understanding at least but yes I do see a difference in distance.

Glasgow 1hr 30
Aberdeen/Edinburgh between 1hr 10-20 min (give or take), if timing difference is only that of 10-15 mins.

Time is not the same as distance. From Dundee by train, Glasgow is 83 miles, Aberdeen is 71 miles and Edinburgh is 59 miles.

 

[kez19]

You appear to have a misunderstanding.

Time is not the same as distance. From Dundee by train, Glasgow is 83 miles, Aberdeen is 71 miles and Edinburgh is 59 miles.

I have no misunderstanding at all I took to what I believed was the capitals (Scotland - Edinburgh) were to be more expensive to travel too to say the likes outwith those areas, I looked at this differently to what I thought I knew in terms of fares and distances, but ok so how does this differ to areas in England?

Whenever I go to Newcastle I can find fares cheaper for near the same distance (or for the sake of it time)? I have always found that I can say board a Northern train to say Middlesborough which could work out cheaper to say the likes of Glasgow? These trains I look at are at least after 0900/0915 and I return by say 3pm. (wish to point out this was done a few months back)

It was £9.90 before the trial. The difference is that the Anytime Day Return at £14.40 is now also £9.90 and the Super Off-Peak Day Return at £8.00 is not available now.

With the Off-Peak Day Return, you couldn't board at Dundee between 0429 and 0915, now you can.

So in other words its going back to the 2000s when First ran Scotrail as that is what the price to Perth was back then and with the time limits lifted is quite possibly making the difference since there is no restriction in travel.

 

[hexagon789]

So in other words its going back to the 2000s when First ran Scotrail as that is what the price to Perth was back then and with the time limits lifted is quite possibly making the difference since there is no restriction in travel.

It was £9.40 before the last fares rise and I suspect it would've only risen to that figure over the past two decades.

 

[kez19]

It was £9.40 before the last fares rise and I suspect it would've only risen to that figure over the past two decades.

That’s what I thought, it’s prices dated back to at least when First ran Scotrail, as Perth was cheap to get away to on the day, then as listed Edinburgh/Aberdeen then Glasgow

 

[Bishopstone]

I can imagine that a return to the status quo ante at the end of the trial might be quite unpopular once people have become used to the one price system.

I think you're right, and despite the fact it's been flagged as a trial, will the media and opposition politicians resist the temptation to talk sensationally about 'massive price hikes' when the peak fares are reintroduced?

There are parallels with the bus fare cap in England, I think, which has been repeatedly extended (a good thing!) and may now be impossible to roll-back, politically. Obviously, if the Scottish trial meets commercial objectives, there's no need to discontinue it.

 

[Falcon1200]

It would be interesting to know what criteria Scotrail have set for the trial to be considered successful. Obviously if journeys and revenue increase, and by more than any cost increase, that will be a success. But if say ridership goes up but revenue down?

A very good question. I would expect ridership to go up, but by enough to cover the loss of revenue? I doubt it, given that as per the BBC News last night, some very popular fares such as Glasgow/Edinburgh are now half the previous price in the peaks. It then comes down to whether the Scottish Government is prepared, or able, to continue paying the necessary additional subsidy.

 

[cb a1]

Dundee to Glasgow allows (or at least used to) you to travel via Edinburgh with a break in journey.
Dundee to Edinburgh doesn't.
I discovered this many years ago when I used to live in Dundee and went to the ticket office for three tickets as I was going to a meeting in Glasgow, then to one in Edinburgh and back home to Dundee.
Ticket office said I just needed a return to Glasgow and this was why split ticketing at Perth yielded a lower fare as the routeing via Edinburgh wasn't permitted.

 

[Gaelan]

Dundee to Glasgow allows (or at least used to) you to travel via Edinburgh with a break in journey.
Dundee to Edinburgh doesn't.
I discovered this many years ago when I used to live in Dundee and went to the ticket office for three tickets as I was going to a meeting in Glasgow, then to one in Edinburgh and back home to Dundee.
Ticket office said I just needed a return to Glasgow and this was why split ticketing at Perth yielded a lower fare as the routeing via Edinburgh wasn't permitted.

Had a look now and they've somewhat broken this by only offering day returns between Dundee and Perth. So the fares are:

Dundee-Glasgow, one-month return: £44
Split at Perth, day returns: £9.90 + £18.40 = £28.20
Perth-Glasgow return, two Dundee-Perth singles: £30.20 + £9.60 + £9.60 = £49.40

So it's cheaper to split at Perth, but only if you're going there and back in a day.

 

[kkong]

Dundee to Glasgow allows (or at least used to) you to travel via Edinburgh with a break in journey.

It still does.

Aberdeen to Glasgow (and therefore Dundee to Glasgow) remains valid via Edinburgh - I go this way often.

 

[numtot12345]

A very good question. I would expect ridership to go up, but by enough to cover the loss of revenue? I doubt it, given that as per the BBC News last night, some very popular fares such as Glasgow/Edinburgh are now half the previous price in the peaks. It then comes down to whether the Scottish Government is prepared, or able, to continue paying the necessary additional subsidy.

I wonder if they will be measuring this against other objectives such as modal shift (from car to train) as well as social inclusion. Not expecting it to make a massive difference, however scrapping peak fares is one lever to help contribute towards the 20% reduction in vehicle car kms.

 

[McCharlie]

My friend and I have been using the super off peak fares twice a week for the last 6 months but as they have been cancelled
it is now more cost effective to go back to car sharing.