Scotrail will need cheaper rail options

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by jcollins, 6 Nov 2011.

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  1. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The BBC have reported that if Scotland becomes independent it will lose transport subsidies which originate from Westminister, which will mean they need to reduce transport running costs.

    They didn't specify how this can be achieved but I imagine the options will be:
    1. Service cuts.
    2. Looking at cheaper options for rolling stock.

    The second would obviously be the better option. Maybe they could switch their 334s for 323s or their 156s to 150s to achieve this.
     
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  3. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Would be a bit more complicated if Scotland were an independent country to swap rolling stock around methinks as surely you would be talking essentially about an international trade agreement?

    I also wonder what would be the situation with rolling stock generally as certainly the case can be made that the BR era rolling stock was procured by the UK taxpayer for the GB railway not solely Scotland therefore should Scotland have an automatic right to keep the rolling stock without compensating the UK? And continuing on this theme I wonder what would happen to cross-border services like the KGX - EDB/ABD/INV/GLC or Birmingham/Manchester - GLC/EDB or Euston - GLC/EDB?
     
  4. HH

    HH Established Member

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    There are several other options. They could raise fares or cut staff. Or they could do nothing and raise taxes.
     
  5. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Most of the suburban/commuter type routes that would be more suited to 150 operation over 156 operation are destined to be electrified over the course of the next few years though. I really don't see 150s as being suitable for operating the West Highland or Glasgow and South Western lines, which will be left as diesel-operated routes of course. Plus, Scotrail (I can't remember whether it was under NatEx or First management) were very keen to get shot of their 150s a few years ago, so I very much doubt that they would want to take any back.

    I hope it is not the case, but I think that it's quite likely that budget cuts to transport subsidy would act to threaten the planned programme of electrification works. Failing that, and potentially very good news for England, I think its' probable that Scotrail won't be given the opportunity to hold onto more diesel units than the minimum service specification requires if electrification does continue to push on.
     
  6. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    And where are the leasing companies based? Won't it be just as difficult for Scotrail to keep hold of their existing stock as to switch it for cheaper options?
     
  7. scotsman

    scotsman Established Member

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    It was under First - NX "took the money and ran" to quote someone who worked under them.
     
  8. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well that's kind of my point later in my post before we get to thinking about swapping units around we have to work out how to split up the existing rolling stock!
     
  9. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Same goes for most of Scotland to be honest, they claim be keep stealing their oil, but where would all of their 'country' be without subsidy from westminster?

    We'll have that back if they delcare independance, not to mention that all their rail infertructure belongs to an English company so they will have to buy or lease that from us, aswell as the rolling stock on it.
     
  10. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    In all likelyhood the various precedents over retaining EU membership, if the EU survives as it probably will, will require Scotland to join Schengen and probably the Euro (if that survives, as it probably will) which would require the London-Scotland services to be cut back to the border to allow border checks.

    And thats before we even get to the subsidy loss.
     
  11. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    The whole business of Scottish independence is ludicrous, and this railway problem is only one small part of the chaos it would engender. That one branch of the Anglo-Saxon family seemingly cannot live on the same island as another without wanting a completely separate polity is a tragedy. Of course many Scots seem to be able to see the difference between romantic nationalism and pragmatism, so it'll probably never happen. The history of politically divided islands (or peninsulas) is not inspiring. Ireland? Cyprus? Korea? Vietnam? Hispaniola? One side always ends up the poor relation in one way or another.
     
  12. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Border Checks at Berwick, Newcastle and/or York? heh

    Or just have all the leasing companies take their stock back, maybe charge more for it.
     
  13. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    You're either bitter, or reading too much propaganda in the papers. Declare independence ? Calm down mate, I doubt it'll happen. I'm under the impression Scotland pays it's way, but we're stronger together than apart, that's for sure.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Indeed mate, we're full of 90 minute patriots!
     
  14. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Carter, mainly p***ed off at the sentement of the SNP representative that went on air about reasons for independance due to scotland having loads of oil in scottish waters etc.
     
  15. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Im not sure the SNP majority really equates to a majority of people for independence, I get the impression that people vote for the SNP as it is the only remaining SocDem party rather than out of nationalism.

    EDIT: and Waiting till 2015 means most of the oil revenue will be gone, blowing a huge hole in that plan
     
  16. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    Not as p***ed off as me mate! Try not to get too worked up though, they're only really jumped up parish councillors! Salmond is a hell of an orator , and pretty funny to boot, but he's still got ideas well above his station. The rest are nobodys and couldn't run a menage.:)
     
  17. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    By "took the money and run" I take it your friend means "introduced lots of new trains, doubled frequencies on key routes and eliminated slam door services"?

    Bad old National Express, eh?
     
  18. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    100% agree, they've been allowed a "shot" by the electorate , and passed a few acts which could be construed as "popular", though the current alcohol minimum pricing proposal hasn't been warmly received, and their laughable attempt at composing a sectarian clampdown law has been pretty embarrassing. Free prescriptions ? Great, but I don't really think it was necessary for those in employment. Even a token charge should be applied. Free residential care for the elderly is a laudable sentiment also, and one i'm morally at peace with, but affordable in the long run? Don't think so. As for the past few years of council tax freezes, again great, but we're paying for it elsewhere in services and council job cuts. On topic however, i'm sure we'd get by........
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    They were pretty good to work for. I miss them a little more than somewhat, it was like the BR days continued on.:D
     
  19. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    Dear dear what a lot of hot air.
    Once the Rubicon of devolution was crossed this was a journey with only one destination, about the only thing I would agree with Tam Dalyell on!
    There has been a huge sea change of attitude and power and our real masters the international money power now seems to be relaxed about Scottish independence which makes me think it will be independence in name only.
    We will be as "independent" as say the "UK" or Greece is now - which isn't a lot (do you seriously think an "independent" UK PM could decide not to get involved in the latest US led middle east Regime change/robbery with violence (SORRY! Humanitarian Intervention!). He'd be out of office within a week, either if he was lucky through some sex scandal or because he was dead (accident/lone nut/heart attack whilst hill-walking, whatever yadayadayada).
    Yes I do possess my own Tinfoil hat etc etc
     
  20. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Not sure about "Scottish = Anglo Saxon"...
     
  21. DXMachina

    DXMachina Member

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    Scotland with all the powers of a sovereign state might actually choose interventionism to try to improve services. (cut deal to reduce/subsidise track access charges, stock hiring or fuel costs)

    Historically, Scottish administrations are far less shy about collecting taxes to spend on social aims. Whether this is a good thing is a matter of politics...
     
  22. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    I am. 100% so. Lowlanders anyway, which is the majority. Signs written in the Gaelic language in places like Glasgow where it has never been spoken just make me sigh.
     
  23. HH

    HH Established Member

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    LOL. That's 'One' way to spin it.

    Eliminated Slam Door Services, eh? Like every other TOC, due to it being a legal requirement (that was known about when they bid for the Franchise).

    I can't speak for the new trains or doubled frequencies - if it's anything like the second (and other) Franchise they were probably specified.

    What I do know is that towards the end of the Franchise they had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to do anything. And of course there was that long and bitter strike in 2002.
     
  24. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    I think it was spoken at one time, many hundreds of years ago, and place names bear that up ,but in a minority and died out long before further north west. It does make me more than sigh though.
     
  25. TheBigD

    TheBigD Member

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    Slam door stock is still in daily use with scotrail.

    Not aware of any plans to replace or upgrade it.
     
  26. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    I suspect it died out before the settlement we know today as 'Glasgow' existed. This is what I meant: the city of Glasgow has no history of speaking anything other than dialects of English. Placename elements like Kil- and Inver- certainly bear out the earlier celtic connection, but common Scots elements like Kirk- and -burgh are as Germanic as it gets. A nice mixture, like most things that are interesting linguistically :)
     
    Last edited: 6 Nov 2011
  27. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    Yep, very much so. I just get aggravated with the skin crawling spin produced from the Scottish Parliament and Bute House, I don't really need telling I'm Scots, because I already know(ken). And British of course. We've much more similarities with our island cousins than differences. Republic of Ireland apart.
     
  28. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Ken. Another good solid piece of Anglo-Saxonry! Compare Dutch 'kennen' meaning 'to know (a person)'.
     
  29. kylemore

    kylemore Member

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    Actually in Glasgow it should be Welsh!
    Or more accurately Brythonic (British)
    In actual fact the English being Anglo-saxons are not "British" whereas the the Lowland Scots and the Welsh are "true" Brits!
    Mad isn't it?
     
  30. CarterUSM

    CarterUSM Established Member

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    There's no pulling the wool over your eyes! I didn't know it was dutch though, I thought Nordic.
     
  31. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Its similarity to Dutch suggests a common West Germanic ancestor, which means it comes from one of the Anglo-Saxon dialects brought over after the Romans had gone, rather than from Norse. There are a lot of similarities between modern Dutch and Scots though. Steen (pronounced 'stane') = stone, kerk = church, ken[nen] = to know, burg = borough.
     
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