Scotsman Train V Plane Challenge

[tbtc]

40 flights a day into London from Edinburgh

I knew there were a lot, but not *that* many! WOAH!

I wonder how many there were each day when British Rail handed over to GNER on the ECML?

Virgin have chopped into the Manchester "flight" market with their 390s, but Edinburgh seems to be fighting a losing battle.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I knew there were a lot, but not *that* many! WOAH!

I wonder how many there were each day when British Rail handed over to GNER on the ECML?

Virgin have chopped into the Manchester "flight" market with their 390s, but Edinburgh seems to be fighting a losing battle.

There's no flights at all Liverpool-London Apts now after VHF, and 390s have reversed a 70:30 air to rail split.

 

[87015]

There's no flights at all Liverpool-London Apts now after VHF, and 390s have reversed a 70:30 air to rail split.

Thats a suspect figure, I'd think a fair few people did, and continue, to go between the two places without using either trains or planes.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thats a suspect figure, I'd think a fair few people did, and continue, to go between the two places without using either trains or planes.

Of thetotal split of those who use trains and planes to get there...

 

[Greenback]

87015 - Not if the 100 total referred to is merely the total of both air and rail passengers, and the figures show the prercentage split between the two, whcih is what is implied.

 

[route101]

i dont understand why someone would fly manchester to london unless you were on a connection . Glasgow to london pendos are more often than quieter than services from edinburgh to london .

 

[chic]

The starting location isn't bad. It's close to Waverley but that means it's also close to Waverley Bridge which is the starting point for the express bus to the airport. Takes about 30 minutes.

Just think what a tram would have shaved off that :P

 

[scotsman]

i dont understand why someone would fly manchester to london unless you were on a connection . Glasgow to london pendos are more often than quieter than services from edinburgh to london .

Rail quoted a figure of 17% of Glasgow - London traffic using the train. It didn't say if this was Rail/Air or Rail/Air/Road

 

[90019]

Edinburgh Airport is near Edinburgh Park station, isn't it? Flights from Edinburgh-London City take 1h20-1h30.

It's about 3.5 miles.

The starting location isn't bad. It's close to Waverley but that means it's also close to Waverley Bridge which is the starting point for the express bus to the airport. Takes about 30 minutes.

The 100 takes approx. 22 mins from Waverley Bridge to the front of Edinburgh Airport.

 

[paul1609]

i dont understand why someone would fly manchester to london unless you were on a connection . Glasgow to london pendos are more often than quieter than services from edinburgh to london .

I do!
From the south east Euston is an awkward terminal to get to for a business trip to Manchester. Whilst there is now a 6.17 service that will get you in for a 9 oclock meeting public transport connections from the suburbs or car parking are non existant/ diffficult. Theres still no parkway facilities on the M25. If you need to be in early itsmuch easier to fly, If I can get a flight from Gatwick I'll often get the train back for the flexibility but if I fly from heathrow its frankly not worth the effort.

 

[Lee_Again]

The train should win this, on all counts, quite convincingly. Catering, space, comfort, WiFi, no security queues and probably time.

However, as a regular traveller to Edinburgh, my single biggest railway timetable complaint is that it is still not possible to do a day trip from the south.

I live in Stevenage (which you'd think would be convenient) and the earliest I can arrive is 11.08 (Madly, if i drive to Watford I can get there slightly earlier via the WCML!!!). Getting back is no problem. WHERE IS MY 9.30 ARRIVAL???

Presently I can fly up and arrive by 9.00 am quite easiliy, albeit with the associated hassle!!

Kings Cross 05.30, Stevenage (for M25, and me) 05.50, Newcastle 07.45, Edinburgh 09.29. Notice the sub 4hrs

If I was East Coast I would go the whole way and offer a 1st class special ticket. Must use this outward service but return by any other. £200, includes return travel, breakfast and dinner. I think they'd sell like hot cakes.

While EasyJet costs about £120 (ish), add in the parking at say £15 per day, and 2 taxis in Edinburgh for £30 and you're up to £165. £35 for breakfast and dinner and you're soon up to the £200 train fare.

Anyway, what do I know.

 

[MCR247]

I do think it would be a good idea for TOCs to offer 1st and 2nd tickets where you are booked onto the outward service, but like you said can get any train back. Perfect for business trips

 

[scotsman]

I do think it would be a good idea for TOCs to offer 1st and 2nd tickets where you are booked onto the outward service, but like you said can get any train back. Perfect for business trips

See "The Scottish Executive" offer advertised on the site

 

[MCR247]

Didn't see that

 

[Lee_Again]

Almost there. Just needs an extra meal and that ealry arrival in to Edinburgh and it would be perfect. At least it proves someone at EastCoast is thinking along the right lines. Good luck to them.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

If it's a true unbiased race with no silly obstructions, given the fact that I have a lady friend who lives in Dundee and uses the 'plane from Edinburgh to City airport the 'plane will win hands down. It's a 1' 25" flight. Add an hour from the hotel to the airport and checking in - 15 mins for a domestic flight - a thirty five minute journey from off the 'plane at City airport to the gherkin the total shouldn't be greater than three hours. The mileage for a British train to compete against air is about 200. Air - for a walk on - is generally cheaper too. Even if the plane goes into Gatwick the journey from the 'plane to the gherkin should be no longer than 1' 40", still quicker than by rail.

 

[route101]

If it's a true unbiased race with no silly obstructions, given the fact that I have a lady friend who lives in Dundee and uses the 'plane from Edinburgh to City airport the 'plane will win hands down. It's a 1' 25" flight. Add an hour from the hotel to the airport and checking in - 15 mins for a domestic flight - a thirty five minute journey from off the 'plane at City airport to the gherkin the total shouldn't be greater than three hours. The mileage for a British train to compete against air is about 200. Air - for a walk on - is generally cheaper too. Even if the plane goes into Gatwick the journey from the 'plane to the gherkin should be no longer than 1' 40", still quicker than by rail.

Im surprised your ladyfriend dosent fly from Dundee . Expensive tho.

 

[Failed Unit]

From personal experience I always take the train from Scotland - London out of 12 journeys this year I have left the office at the same time and arrive in Scotland earlier. Southbound it is not a fare comparison as I use the sleeper. Red eye v sleeper is a personal thing but it is cheaper to use the train when the cost of getting to the airport is considered. You get rubbish sleep on both.

Noteable highlights for rail
In January I had a 2 hour delay because of the snow. The air college never got out of London for the same reason.
The volcano - but I did suffer the landslide in April to balance that out.
Planes also are frequently delay. Heathrow is very bad for this. However on one occasion I was sat in my friends house in Linlithgow and he hadn't got out of city airport a 2 hour delay.

For me I normally win on Edinburgh to London for 2 reasons.
1 flexible tickets. I can get any train I want so when meetings finish early I head north. The same type of tickets by air cost a fortune and you have to hope for spare seats.
2 delays on rail are typically not as bad as by air and you get off the train and go. Easyjet at Gatwick are bad at getting the baggage to you which is a surprise with their short turn arounds.

This of course only applies to Central London. I would be amazed if my meeting was in the docklands I would ever beat the planes. Even with the typically long delays at airports.

 

[me123]

Planes also are frequently delay. Heathrow is very bad for this. However on one occasion I was sat in my friends house in Linlithgow and he hadn't got out of city airport a 2 hour delay.

In my experience, planes are delayed more often than not. With the exception of Ryanair (PIK-CRL), every single flight I've been on has been delayed for some reason or another.

What really gets me is that the airlines very often get away with delays, whereas a five minute delay on a rail service will undoubtedly cause someone to moan about how useless the trains are.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well that very true. On my landslide delay I arrived into Edinburgh 3 hours late but had a taxi home and the ticket refunded. Would an airline do the same - no chance. That is another big plus with rail the companies have a duty of care.

Weather hits domestic flights more than international as in times of disruption the domestics get cancelled first. At least with rail if the east coast is gone another way will be provided. Normally the west coast you are rarely stranded on train.

My collegue is so fed up of me beating him going north from London to Linlithgow the last journey he took was by rail. He liked the fact he didn't need to worry how long his meal took and the fact he could work.

 

[jopsuk]

Heathrow is especially prone to being fog-bound- rather unfortunate for such a busy airport, but it is down to the surrounding geography.

 

[Failed Unit]

If it's a true unbiased race with no silly obstructions, given the fact that I have a lady friend who lives in Dundee and uses the 'plane from Edinburgh to City airport the 'plane will win hands down. It's a 1' 25" flight. Add an hour from the hotel to the airport and checking in - 15 mins for a domestic flight - a thirty five minute journey from off the 'plane at City airport to the gherkin the total shouldn't be greater than three hours. The mileage for a British train to compete against air is about 200. Air - for a walk on - is generally cheaper too. Even if the plane goes into Gatwick the journey from the 'plane to the gherkin should be no longer than 1' 40", still quicker than by rail.

You must be very optimistic on both fronts!

I have looked at LazyJet's website, to buy a ticket today is £78 (handbaggage only) but it also states that you must allow 40 minutes for checkin.

So lets assume on the race best case for both cases.
Air,
Leave hotel at 1115, arrive at bus-stop at 1125 with a bus waiting. No traffic so you are in Edinburgh airport at 1155, buy a ticket with no queue clear security it and board plane it is now 1240. No delays on the flight. arrive at city at 1400. Get DLR (train is waiting no queue for ticket etc) maybe arrive at bank at 1430. walk will be the same as the train.

Leave hotel at 1115, board 1130 train without ticket but both ticket and LU travel card on the train. arrive KX at 1550 get tube at 1600 and arrive bank at 1610.

The train is clearly not able to compete - BUT it would be a brave person that leaves things that tight for a flight, many people allow at least 1 hour. You are not in control of Edinburgh traffic so you will probably allow 45 minutes for the bus as well. If you miss a train in the day doing south another one will be along in 30 minutes.

As for silly obstructions, It often takes 30 minutes to clear security at Edinburgh and the amount of times you circle London for a landing slot you are just as likely to find a "silly obstruction" in the air as you are on the rails.

Paul is right it is annoying on the train that you are always held outside York, Darlington and Newcastle, but the train normally catches up by Edinburgh. But why does waiting outside stations annoy passengers more than the airlines practice of circling or loading the plane but not having a confirmed take-off slot!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Heathrow is especially prone to being fog-bound- rather unfortunate for such a busy airport, but it is down to the surrounding geography.

Leaves on the line often delay trains but it is down to the surrounding trees.

Both forms of transport have thier problems, City is prone to fog delays. But with the unreliability of domestic flights in the Winter, I would take the sleeper anyday - at least you know the fog isn't going to make you miss your 10am meeting. Fog is common in the UK you know, just not as common as it used to be!

 

[tbtc]

In my experience, planes are delayed more often than not. With the exception of Ryanair (PIK-CRL), every single flight I've been on has been delayed for some reason or another.

What really gets me is that the airlines very often get away with delays, whereas a five minute delay on a rail service will undoubtedly cause someone to moan about how useless the trains are.

I wish air lines had to publish equivalent stats, that'd be interesting.

And as for anyone driving from London to Edinburgh and being able to predict their arrival time to the nearest five/ten minutes, don't get me started :roll:

 

[flymo]

The CAA do publish some statistics regarding airline punctuality, both scheduled and charter.

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=12&fld=2010

Not for the faint of heart as there are 5135 rows of data for July alone but the information, or at least some of it, is out there.

Edit: There is also a PDF version available too.


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/July_2010_Punctuality_Statistics.pdf

FYI Edinburgh is on page 166.

 

[me123]

24% of Glasgow flights arriving over 15 minutes late. 5% over an hour late. Average delay 13 minutes. Compare to 9.6% of Virgin Trains services being late (June 2010).


22% of Edinburgh flights arriving over 15 minutes late. 4% over an hour late. Average delay 12 minutes. Compare to 12.3% of East Coast trains being late (June 2010).

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd like to see some more info from the rail side Specifically, the average delay would be quite nice, as well as specific performance results for the Anglo-Scottish routes.

Obviously, my analysis above falls far short of a fair comparison by anyone's expectations; it's not a direct comparison, and the rail definition of "on time" differs from the airline definition. But, at a glance, I would suggest that the trains are much more reliable than the airlines.

 

[LE Greys]

Yes, it's fine as long as no airline does a similar publicity stunt with locations and times tweaked to suit their operations! Then there will be howls of protest from some on this forum!

As we've discussed before, some journeys are better by train, some are not. It all depends on the specifics!

Aberdeen Union Square (the new shopping centre) to Cardiff Millennium Stadium would be a tough one. Anything without a direct route would really not be fair competition. Long lengths of fast main line are fine, but convoluted routes, such as through Fife, or massive diversions via London or Birmingham cut into the time. Still, by the time the train reached Dundee (assuming they took the 07:52) the airport bus/taxi would still be stuck in traffic on North Anderson Drive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Back when I was at Aberdeen Uni, I only ever flew home if I had late lectures on a Friday. Even then, a series of nightmares put me right off. LazyJet had about a 50% punctuality record into Luton, and a 5-hour delay as a result of missing our slot was the last straw. I never flew with them again. BA were fine for the first couple of years, then transferred their regular Gatwick flight into Heathrow T5. Gatwick, nice and convenient for Thameslink, smaller airport, better catering, better layout. Heathrow T5, well, we all know about that. Besides, an hourly or half-hourly bus link from Aberdeen to Dyce was a nightmare. Taxis were expensive, and the whole thing was unreliable anyway (fortunately BA tended to put me on a later flight free of charge if I was late because of traffic - possibly because I tend to check in on-line). Generally, being a couple of hours faster was not worth having to cross London and cope with all the hassle.

 

[Failed Unit]

24% of Glasgow flights arriving over 15 minutes late. 5% over an hour late. Average delay 13 minutes. Compare to 9.6% of Virgin Trains services being late (June 2010).


22% of Edinburgh flights arriving over 15 minutes late. 4% over an hour late. Average delay 12 minutes. Compare to 12.3% of East Coast trains being late (June 2010).

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd like to see some more info from the rail side Specifically, the average delay would be quite nice, as well as specific performance results for the Anglo-Scottish routes.

Obviously, my analysis above falls far short of a fair comparison by anyone's expectations; it's not a direct comparison, and the rail definition of "on time" differs from the airline definition. But, at a glance, I would suggest that the
trains are much more reliable than the airlines.

A cancelations comparison would be interesting. I think virgin publish by route. I am sure I have seen it at Glasgow central. East coast I have never seen them split Leeds away from Scotland. But as you say rail is 10 mins and air is 15 before they are late.

Rail would never want the entire share anyway as anyone who has travelled on the 1700 London - Edinburgh service will tell you, it can't cope when the flights are grounded. Without air you would need a lot more capacity on both mainlines and maybe even 1 train non-stop London to Scotland. Something that would be hard to path!

 

[me123]

... and maybe even 1 train non-stop London to Scotland. Something that would be hard to path!

Virgin have already got the next best thing; the 16:30 departure from Euston calling only at Preston

 

[At_traction]

Generally, being a couple of hours faster was not worth having to cross London and cope with all the hassle.

And this in a nutshell is the advantage that intercity train travel (in certain cases even international) presents. Relatively hassle-free, one-sit point-to-point journey. And no "turn off your electronic devices" restrictions either - good for keeping the phone-yakkers off their disgusting habit, though...

 

[rb311]

Edinburgh to London City is affected by fog probably a maximum of 8 mornings a year, and LCY is particuarly vulnerable to fog both for geographical and tecnical reasons.

In my experience very few flights from EDI to LCY are delayed, or arrive after the scheduled time of arrival. Departure delays (mainly due to pax who don't show up at the gate on time), are usually caught up in the flight.

In my experience of long distance rail journeys, I have never been on a train when it has arrived on time, never.

As to environmental factors, and how fog affects airlines, no one has mentioned frozen points and signals, leaves on the line, overhead power lines blown down, or the wrong/right type of snow.

As is often mentioned on here, there are modes of transport to suit different journeys, but when it comes to rail vs air, London-Edinburgh is the show case.

And as long as the rules are set up fairly, ie using London City instead of Heathrow, then, I'm afraid train fans, air will win.