Scotsman Train V Plane Challenge

[90019]

whan was the last time terrorists tried to blow up a train?

Successful attacks since 2000;

• Angola, August 2001
• India, May 2002
• Isreal, June 2002
• Isreal, July 2002
• India, September 2002
• India, March 2003
• Russia, September 2003
• Russia, December 2003
• Russia, February 2004
• Madrid, March 2004
• London, July 2005
• India, July 2005
• India, July 2006
• India, February 2007
• Russia, August 2008
• Sri Lanka, May 2008
• Assam, December 2008
• Russia, November 2009
• India, March 2010
• Russia, March 2010
• Russia, April 2010
• India, May 2010
• Russia, July 2010
• Russia, August 2010

No passport

I don't think you need a passport for internal flights.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Successful attacks since 2000;

In Britain...?

 

[90019]

In Britain...?

Just the one succesful attack, but that wasn't the question.

 

[MCR247]

I don't think you need a passport for internal flights.

Don't quote me on this, but I'm not sure thats true. I mean they don't need to, but I think some airline require you to

 

[me123]

More often than not nowadays you do need a passport, even for UK Domestic flights. Many airports now mix the domestic and international departures seeing as how the security is equally tight for both, and of course your passport is double checked before boarding anyway.

That said, I imagine that photographic drivers licenses can probably still be used on some flights internal flights somewhere.

 

[scotsman]

I don't think you need a passport for internal flights.

I believe that you require Photo ID (either PaSS/Driving Licence/Passport)

 

[jon0844]

I never had to show a passport at Heathrow to go to Dublin, but they took my photo going in to departures and at the gate, to check I was the same person who went through. Seems a good idea (and how long did it take for them to get this system working?!).

In Ireland, I showed my passport but believe it could have been a driving licence or another approved form of ID.

 

[scotsman]

I think that I wasn't even ID'd when I flew from Barra to Benbecula and back. I may have shown my Scottish Entitlement Card (PaSS hologram)

 

[rb311]

Glass house and stones? You have made many bizarre claims in your argument and have not backed up a single on. So please tell me what this mythical airline that does London city to Edinburgh with 100% timekeeping record, business class and cheaper returns in business class than £199 is? Perhaps with links to some stats to prove it is not just part of your imagination? We are waiting! We have given many examples of how to enjoy rail travel and our verifiable opinions of why we prefer it to flying.

Another interesting view point.. I question somone's proposition that an underground train is not a train... and i get this response... Bizarre claims?

What is totally bizarre is that this is a rail forum and yet no one seems to mind that someone is not calling a train a train?

As to what i have said, and bear in mind this based on my own personal experience and not supposition, guess work, subjective prejudice etc, is:

In my experience very few flights from EDI to LCY are delayed, or arrive after the scheduled time of arrival. Departure delays (mainly due to pax who don't show up at the gate on time), are usually caught up in the flight.

In my experience of long distance rail journeys, I have never been on a train when it has arrived on time, never.

The airline has business class, fact no 2, and I never said anything anywhere about price.....

So if you are going to argue don't misquote. Secondly, I am perfectly within my rights to quote my own experience.. Statistics are, at best, lies, if not damned lies...

I would still like to know more about the train denying argument.

Photo id is required within the uk to marry up the boarding card to the person who is carrying it.

 

[jon0844]

Photo id is required within the uk to marry up the boarding card to the person who is carrying it.

At Heathrow they take a photo of you and 'attach' it to the boarding card. When you get to/near the gate, they scan the boarding card and check it is still the same person.

 

[Failed Unit]

Another interesting view point.. I question somone's proposition that an underground train is not a train... and i get this response... Bizarre claims?

Yes your claims are totally bizarre, even Micheal O'Leary would suggest that his airline is always on time as he can't prove it!

As to what i have said, and bear in mind this based on my own personal experience and not supposition, guess work, subjective prejudice etc, is:

Ok so Eurostar is 100% on time as I have never had a delay on it. Likewise Easyjets flights to Gatwick are always 2 hours+ late as that is my personal experience, not supposition, guess work subjective predudice etc.

The airline has business class, fact no 2, and I never said anything anywhere about price.....

The airline you still can't name - I will take that with a pinch of salt as it is still not verified!

So if you are going to argue don't misquote. Secondly, I am perfectly within my rights to quote my own experience.. Statistics are, at best, lies, if not damned lies...

But your arguement has no credibility as you can't back it up! The CAA figures quoted on here suggest you are just very lucky! But you may only take one flight per year who knows. They also suggest that rails time keeping is genrally better than the airlines. So if anything the statistics are bias towards the airlines (as the definition of late is 15 mins for air and only 10 for rail) and they still can't beat rails timekeeping! If you want to see that trains arrive early from Edinburgh take a look at the live departure boards. People on this forum will be able to look at systems to prove that trains arrived on-time or early between Edinburgh and London yesterday, not every single one of course, but your to prove your claim that trains are always late arguement is total nonsense it only takes one to be on-time to show it is not true. The last train from London to Edinburgh I took arrived 7 minutes early. (again this can be verified by looking at TRUST)

So if you can prove any airline can operate 100% on time on any route please name it. Mr O'Leary will be asking them how they do it!

 

[rb311]

Yes your claims are totally bizarre, even Micheal O'Leary would suggest that his airline is always on time as he can't prove it!

Ok so Eurostar is 100% on time as I have never had a delay on it. Likewise Easyjets flights to Gatwick are always 2 hours+ late as that is my personal experience, not supposition, guess work subjective predudice etc.


The airline you still can't name - I will take that with a pinch of salt as it is still not verified!


But your arguement has no credibility as you can't back it up! The CAA figures quoted on here suggest you are just very lucky! But you may only take one flight per year who knows. They also suggest that rails time keeping is genrally better than the airlines. So if anything the statistics are bias towards the airlines (as the definition of late is 15 mins for air and only 10 for rail) and they still can't beat rails timekeeping! If you want to see that trains arrive early from Edinburgh take a look at the live departure boards. People on this forum will be able to look at systems to prove that trains arrived on-time or early between Edinburgh and London yesterday, not every single one of course, but your to prove your claim that trains are always late arguement is total nonsense it only takes one to be on-time to show it is not true. The last train from London to Edinburgh I took arrived 7 minutes early. (again this can be verified by looking at TRUST)

So if you can prove any airline can operate 100% on time on any route please name it. Mr O'Leary will be asking them how they do it!

You simply don't read or take in, or accept any other view point but your own... Please try to read what I say, and respond accordingly.

As I said, I operate the Edi-Lcy flight very often.. in your parlance, that means i'm a driver. That gives me some professional credence, that I think is lacking here...

And as to your identity on here is it an ironic joke, or actually the most oft heard excuse on the rail network... ?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Ladies and Gentlemen. Boys and Girls, you're losing track here (veering if you like). The original question up for discussion was, is it quicker to take an aeroplane from Edininburgh city centre-ish to London city centre-ish. The answer is take the aeroplane. That's it. All the biting, snapping, sniping and bickering is of little relevance, there was no question of comfort or practicality, the question related to length of transit and on that the aeroplane will beat the train hands down. I have evidence that proves it.

 

[Failed Unit]

You simply don't read or take in, or accept any other view point but your own... Please try to read what I say, and respond accordingly.

I can accept a point of view other than my own, in your opinion you think flying is better. I accept respect that it is your subjective opinion, but that is all.

As I said, I operate the Edi-Lcy flight very often.. in your parlance, that means i'm a driver. That gives me some professional credence, that I think is lacking here...

Actually it doesn't, it is again subjective. Very often to some people is once a week, to others it is once a year. You have made many bizarre claims you simply can't back up with real evidence. I mean if you can't even name the airline that is supposed to offer a business class service on this route says a lot! I don't see what point you are making by saying you operate it - it makes no difference to me - you still can't prove that it is ontime 100% of the time!

My personal experience is the train is always better, a recent example we had a meeting on Tottenham Court Road. It finished at 1630, I walked to Kings Cross and got 1700 train. I had a full meal worked on the internet and was back in Linlithgow before 2200. My college who was flying was stuck at City airport and left just before 2200 (before the airport close). Problem air traffic restrictions. So yes from my experience the train wins hands down. Going north I have not been beaten by the air traveller once this year, doing the journey at least once a month, my collegues now use rail as it is more reliable. So my experience is a lot different to yours, to me flying is something you need to do from time to time but is best avoided!

And as to your identity on here is it an ironic joke, or actually the most oft heard excuse on the rail network... ?

If I was going to use a airline industry identity it would be "air traffic restrictions" or maybe "we are waiting for a slot"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ladies and Gentlemen. Boys and Girls, you're losing track here (veering if you like). The original question up for discussion was, is it quicker to take an aeroplane from Edininburgh city centre-ish to London city centre-ish. The answer is take the aeroplane. That's it. All the biting, snapping, sniping and bickering is of little relevance, there was no question of comfort or practicality, the question related to length of transit and on that the aeroplane will beat the train hands down. I have evidence that proves it.

Most surveys that have done this before show there is very little difference to choose between the two. It is fine saying you only need 40 minutes to check in, but most people allow more for delays. Getting to and from the airport at both ends adds to the time and cost. My experience may not be typical, but the air traffic delays and collecting the baggage eat into what little time you save. Yes when I get from London - Edinburgh quicker the air-passenger has alway had a delay and should have done it quicker, but delays and air-travel go hand in hand, if you use Heathrow in particular!

 

[jon0844]

The only reason that Ryanair is usually on time is because they took the railway industry 'recovery time' to new levels. They can add 45-1hr to a flight quite easily, so even if they can play the celebratory audio clip to say 'we arrived early', you must question if they really are.

What next, London to Edinburgh gets booked down as 8 hours, so you can proudly announce arriving 4 hours early? If Ryanair started to operate a train company (and who is to say he won't one day?) I'd love to see what he would do.

 

[flymo]

The only reason that Ryanair is usually on time is because they took the railway industry 'recovery time' to new levels. They can add 45-1hr to a flight quite easily, so even if they can play the celebratory audio clip to say 'we arrived early', you must question if they really are.

According to Flightstats, Ryanair were 33rd out of 45 in the on-time stats for September.

http://images.emailroi.com/users/flightstats/library234.pdf

This report covers European airlines only.

Make of this info what you will, (I appreciate is skews off on a huge tangent in regard to the OP, but somehow I still think it is relevant), it is just putting some meat to the bones so to speak.

All of this is at face value and I have no affiliation with any organization responsible for the correlation of this data. I'm just a number geek.:neutral:

 

[rb311]

Actually it doesn't, it is again subjective. Very often to some people is once a week, to others it is once a year. You have made many bizarre claims you simply can't back up with real evidence. I mean if you can't even name the airline that is supposed to offer a business class service on this route says a lot! I don't see what point you are making by saying you operate it - it makes no difference to me - you still can't prove that it is ontime 100% of the time!

Please list my bizarre claims. The definition of bizarre is "conspicuously or grossly unconventional or unusual". Mmmm.

I am not going to mention the airline I work for, because I don't wish to. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist nor offer business class. If you will only accept other peoples' views when accompanied by rafts of statistics that's your problem.

As to air traffic control slot delays.. Whilst you may wish not to accept this as I am not going to back this up with acres of statistics, slots only occur if a delay in the system is incurred due to unforeseen circumstances, for example, bad weather at destination. And between Edi-Lcy and back they hardly ever occur, infact the last time I experienced one (due to very high winds in London) was in February 2009.

If your (i think you mean colleague) college was delayed by so long then it would have been a hugely exceptional issue, not the norm. Therefore to use that as an example is perhaps the exception that proves the rule.

The simple fact is that average flying time between LCY and Edi is 1hr in the air, with about a further 10 minutes taxiing at either end. How fast is the fastest train, between the two? I don't know, Im not a rail professional, but I guess it's in the region of 4 hrs?? That means there is an extra 2 and half hours (being generous) to use up getting in and out of the airport, taxis, underground trains (surely?) to get from the hotel in Edinburgh to the Gherkin..

But then it wasn't just timings.. It was eating, wifi, walking around.. All things that need to be done to while away the 4hrs I guess..

 

[Geezertronic]

The simple fact is that average flying time between LCY and Edi is 1hr in the air, with about a further 10 minutes taxiing at either end. How fast is the fastest train, between the two? I don't know, Im not a rail professional, but I guess it's in the region of 4 hrs?? That means there is an extra 2 and half hours (being generous) to use up getting in and out of the airport, taxis, underground trains (surely?) to get from the hotel in Edinburgh to the Gherkin..

But then it wasn't just timings.. It was eating, wifi, walking around.. All things that need to be done to while away the 4hrs I guess..

Not wanting to wade into an argument I have little knowledge about or little interest in but I can catch a train at 2 mins to departure if I so desired whereas I would have to check into the airport on average 40 mins before a plane departure. At destination I could leave the train station immediately, at an airport there are security checkpoints to go through and possibly luggage to pick up. So your extra 2 and a half hours is probably more like 1 and a half hours really (also being generous).

I don't see why you wouldn't want to name drop your airline unless your user handle might give away your identity?

 

[rb311]

Not wanting to wade into an argument I have little knowledge about or little interest in but I can catch a train at 2 mins to departure if I so desired whereas I would have to check into the airport on average 40 mins before a plane departure. At destination I could leave the train station immediately, at an airport there are security checkpoints to go through and possibly luggage to pick up. So your extra 2 and a half hours is probably more like 1 and a half hours really (also being generous).

Well now have you gone in feet first, what I actually said is that you have 2 and half hours

to use up getting in and out of the airport, taxis, underground trains (surely?) to get from the hotel in Edinburgh to the Gherkin..

So I included check in and check out. There are no security checks on the way out off a domestic flight; and if you wish to check in a bag that's up to you, but again, no more than 10 minutes in London city is what you need to collect a bag. Hence I was being generous taking away 1hr 10 from 4hrs and getting 2 and half.

Sure you can turn up 2 minutes before your train.. How many people are prepared to take such a risk under the circumstances we are talking about?

 

[Failed Unit]

Well now have you gone in feet first, what I actually said is that you have 2 and half hours

So I included check in and check out. There are no security checks on the way out off a domestic flight; and if you wish to check in a bag that's up to you, but again, no more than 10 minutes in London city is what you need to collect a bag. Hence I was being generous taking away 1hr 10 from 4hrs and getting 2 and half.

Sure you can turn up 2 minutes before your train.. How many people are prepared to take such a risk under the circumstances we are talking about?

A lot of people leave 2 minutes before a train because they can. During the day the next one is only 30 minutes behind.

As for not naming the airline you won't because 1 it doesn't offer business class and 2 I will be able to look it up and disprove that it never runs late. Simples.

Long delays at airports are the norm now. Hence why rails share of the domestic Market is increasing. Wasn't that long ago city was closed for poor visability. I guess your mythical airline wasnt. Lol

 

[rb311]

Failed unit, are you actually from planet earth?

If you were a serious business man, and you have a meeting in London, you're prepared to run the risk of running late, by missing the train, missing youre reserved seat so you can spend the 4hrs wifiing on here, and maybe your wondrous meal.?.. dear oh dear...

As to my mythical airline, you say what you like...

London City was shut to inbound aircraft two weeks ago for 3hrs one morning, due to low visibility (no a), the first time this year, actually.

I actually started by saying that the airport is affected around 8 days a year, so we still have 7 to go until December.

As to rail increasing market share, it may be due to other factors, like airport duty tax, and increased and unreasonable security checks, so if rail travel doesn't increase it's share now, it never will.

 

[MCR247]

Sorry Failed unit but
Cityjet have flights to Edinburgh with business class

 

[Metroland]

It's generally agreed rail time keeping is some 10-20% ahead of air, this is illustrated by many independent statistics from various sources.

Pricing wise, there isn't a lot of difference, with rail possibly coming out cheaper on some value advance fares, especially when additional luggage or ancillary charges are taken into account.

Taking a typical city-city point journey rail generally beats air on everything south of Carlisle, and east of Plymouth from London, with the exceptions of things like London-Inverness/London-Aberdeen, South-Coast to Scotland.

Rail is about equal on London-Glasgow and Edinburgh, and it's really down to personal preference. Personally, I would choose rail for all UK domestic journeys and most European journeys. For most people the switch to air is apparent after the 3-5 hour (or 300- 500 mile) mark, Rail dominates under this time frame (compared to air) pretty much throughout the world without exception.

For the vast majority of intercity journeys in the UK, rail is more convenient and quicker for most people and domestic flights have been in decline for many years, amounting to just 22 million journeys per year. This is compared to 1.2 billion for National Rail.

The much vaunted London-Edinburgh passenger market for the ECML, actually only makes up around 5% of the total passengers on the line, most are making journeys between other points.

 

[LE Greys]

I intend to absent myself from this discussion until I hear the race result, and then might consider whether it is a typical case or not. However it turns out, it will probably be interesting. Up till then, there is no point in getting involved in what appears to be a conflict between people rather than a discussion of the facts.

Goodbye for now.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry Failed unit but
Cityjet have flights to Edinburgh with business class

Thank you. City Jet = Air France. I don't know why my trolling friend could not mention the name, not really business class but I suppose it is better than cattle, doesn't say anything on the website about improved seating pitch for example. At least now I can look up the stats and know they don't have a 100% record in fact I know it wasn't on the 8th October or during the volcano period.

It is odd that someone finds it odd that I arrive 2 minutes before a trains due out when it is only a 15 minute walk from the office to the station. It is not as if I am not in total control of my journey. Not like at an airport where security can vary between 5 minutes and 50 minutes depending on Baas mood in Edinburgh.

It would be nice if all domestic flights were banished off routes between London and Scotland but that will never happen even if hs2 is built. There will always be a need for flights connecting into international routes, which is probably the only reason Ba still fly to Manchester.

 

[At_traction]

It would be nice if all domestic flights were banished off routes between London and Scotland but that will never happen even if hs2 is built. There will always be a need for flights connecting into international routes, which is probably the only reason Ba still fly to Manchester.

Hmm? I'm sort of neutral on the issue, being both a rail and plane buff (well, even more of the latter, come to think of it. ) but I'm afraid that views like this one only give our half-trollish guest ammo for his crusade against rail enthusiasts/users. Scotland-London connections (and why not northern-ish England too) will certainly always have their place and users, even outside those catching a connection from London, especially considering the availability and clientele of the London City Airport for Scotland flights.

All this amount of writing is on the table even before the details of the conduct of competition are out... So I'll officially retract my verdict of "snore".

 

[Failed Unit]

Hmm? I'm sort of neutral on the issue, being both a rail and plane buff (well, even more of the latter, come to think of it. ) but I'm afraid that views like this one only give our half-trollish guest ammo for his crusade against rail enthusiasts/users. Scotland-London connections (and why not northern-ish England too) will certainly always have their place and users, even outside those catching a connection from London, especially considering the availability and clientele of the London City Airport for Scotland flights.

Yes I am sure they will, even on routes like London - Paris / Brussels the airlines will always have thier place. Someone travelling from Brighton to thier office near the airport in Brussels will choose flights, like wise I am sure Hatfield - Inverkiething will always be quicker by air no matter how badly the airlines treat thier cattle (sorry passengers). Ryanair proves that you don't need to treat customers well to be used!

All this amount of writing is on the table even before the details of the conduct of competition are out... So I'll officially retract my verdict of "snore".

Well this is my last post on the subject until the results are out, I was trying to find out the results of the last race which was Westminster - Holyrood but not with much success, I think that one was very close. I just hope that no untypical delay happens to either mode (ie wire down or fog) just the standard air traffic delay for the plane and waiting for a pacer to go ahead for the train.

As for which mode of transport is the best, I watch top gear so I already know what mode will always get you from A-B in the quickest time!

 

[rb311]

Hmm? I'm sort of neutral on the issue, being both a rail and plane buff (well, even more of the latter, come to think of it. ) but I'm afraid that views like this one only give our half-trollish guest ammo for his crusade against rail enthusiasts/users.

I actually was going to ignore that sort of stalinist comment as it really only told us more about the poster than the post.

Incidently, what qualifies me as a troll? Am I a rail amateur posting amongst rail professionals, or realist amongst enthusiasts?

I am going to sit back and wait for:

1. Failed unit to go rummaging around for statistics and see how he skews them to suit his viewpoint.

2. The race.

Bring it/them on..

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I actually was going to ignore that sort of stalinist comment
Incidently, what qualifies me as a troll?

And what makes it a Stalinist comment?

A troll is someone who makes claims without being able to back them up - I believe a member on here asked for your sources to a claim about 2 days ago, and you are still yet to list it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I actually was going to ignore that sort of stalinist comment as it really only told us more about the poster than the post.

Incidently, what qualifies me as a troll? Am I a rail amateur posting amongst rail professionals, or realist amongst enthusiasts?

I am going to sit back and wait for:

1. Failed unit to go rummaging around for statistics and see how he skews them to suit his viewpoint.

2. The race.

Bring it/them on..

It is you that stated that your airline is always on time between London and Edinburgh not me, so the burden of proof is on you. CityJet's own website says it is the most punctual airline in Europe, it does not claim to have 100% timekeeping on the London - Edinburgh route however which you claim! So it is me that is waiting for you to prove your worthless claims, such as business class (not premium economy), 100% timekeeping, etc.

Looking at your posting record on this forum, you seem very anti-rail to me, I mean you even suggest closing down the passenger network, hence my feeling you are a troll rather than someone with any interest in the railways. You claim that every train you travel on is late as well, I suppose that is possible if you define late by 1 minute as some routes working timetable is different from the public timetable so you do have stations where the public timetable states a train will arrive at 1707 but the working timetable is really 1709 it will always be late (according to the public timetable). I don't know why this happens as it does make rail look bad, but equally the 0700 London - Glasgow services arrived at Waverley 3 minutes early, as did the Inverness - London service so it is not as bad as your experiece suggests.