Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[mcmad]

Edinburgh sub is nowhere near ready to go for electrification, GRIP 2 at best. There are several bridges which would be technically/logistically difficult to rebuild and a weak business case. From speaking to people, I think east kilbride is also around GRIP 2 but more based around capacity improvements with electrification as an optional add on rather than electrification by itself as electrics won't add capacity over the 156's.

 

[InOban]

I understood that the bridges had all been done in the process of clearing it to W12 for freight from the East coast ports to Mossend. I'm sure it's all in an old thread. It's also necessary to allow trains to access the 'wrong' end of Waverley during any upgrade works.

 

[59CosG95]

Edinburgh sub is nowhere near ready to go for electrification, GRIP 2 at best. There are several bridges which would be technically/logistically difficult to rebuild and a weak business case.

I understood that the bridges had all been done in the process of clearing it to W12 for freight from the East coast ports to Mossend. I'm sure it's all in an old thread. It's also necessary to allow trains to access the 'wrong' end of Waverley during any upgrade works.

So, to summarise: it seems that some of the work by civil engineers is done, but the civil servants stand in the way of letting them complete the outstanding works...

 

[mcmad]

I thinnk that although most of the arch bridges were dealt with under the W12 project there are a number of flat decked bridges, particularly around the former station which although clear to W12 don't have the required electrical clearances under current standards.

 

[59CosG95]

I thinnk that although most of the arch bridges were dealt with under the W12 project there are a number of flat decked bridges, particularly around the former station which although clear to W12 don't have the required electrical clearances under current standards.

And indeed, as the standards have changed since the W12 clearance, they might have been clear then but not clear now for OLE.

 

[route101]

Whats GRIP 2 ?

 

[59CosG95]

Whats GRIP 2 ?

GRIP: Guide to Rail Investment Process

1. Output Definition
2. Feasibility
3. Option Selection
4. Single Option Development
5. Detailed Design
6. Construction, Testing & Commission
7. Scheme Handback
8. Project Close-out

So, to clarify, any electrification of the South Sub has only reached a feasibility study...if that.

 

[Grinner]

Does GRIP process definitely apply in Scotland? I thought we used STAG but perhaps the two are processes are not simply equivalent as I had thought.

 

[Highlandspring]

Does GRIP process definitely apply in Scotland? I thought we used STAG but perhaps the two are processes are not simply equivalent as I had thought.

Yes GRIP applies in Scotland.

 

[InOban]

If you read the NR Enhancement delivery plan, June 18 edition, p 175, you will read that clearance to W12 was completed over two years ago, and is planned to provide clearance for, and synergy, with the planned electrification of the Sub in CP6. I'm sure that was after the changes in ohle clearances.

 

[Grinner]

Yes GRIP applies in Scotland.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[mcmad]

If you read the NR Enhancement delivery plan, June 18 edition, p 175, you will read that clearance to W12 was completed over two years ago, and is planned to provide clearance for, and synergy, with the planned electrification of the Sub in CP6. I'm sure that was after the changes in ohle clearances.

thats just cowmanure bingo for the bridges we put in as part of the W12 clearance were designed (at the time of design so ~5 years ago probably) to be clear for the OLE standards of the day, doesn't mean the whole route was cleared for OLE and wouldn't be to the new euro standards.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Are the new standards so much of a problem away from stations? My understanding was that the biggest new problems came from the need to have more distance between the wires and the platform surface. Since it's natural for stations to be located near bridges, this has had a disproportionate impact. Since the South Sub has no stations, it's easier to lower the wires below the bridges. If any stations ever do happen (unlikely for heavy rail), then they'll need to pay for the bridge clearance work.

 

[railjock]

Are the new standards so much of a problem away from stations? My understanding was that the biggest new problems came from the need to have more distance between the wires and the platform surface. Since it's natural for stations to be located near bridges, this has had a disproportionate impact. Since the South Sub has no stations, it's easier to lower the wires below the bridges. If any stations ever do happen (unlikely for heavy rail), then they'll need to pay for the bridge clearance work.

...worsening the already very poor case for re-introduction of passenger services.

 

[InOban]

Only crayonistas envision the return of passenger services. The upgrade of the sub is for freight and passenger diversions. Full stop.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

My hope is that some forward planning has been done. My fear is that you are correct and the impetus that has been built up will be lost. I'm leaning towards the latter although, when Paisley Canal was done, there was reference to the same approach not being suitable for East Kilbride, inferring that some assessment had taken place.

I recently had a conversation with a chap who is involved in planning ongoing electrification who told me that battery electric trains were being considered for the East Kilbride line.

 

[59CosG95]

I recently had a conversation with a chap who is involved in planning ongoing electrification who told me that battery electric trains were being considered for the East Kilbride line.

Those Hydrogen-powered Class 321s could be a potential solution...ScotRail crews could have potentially minimal traction knowledge training, as the 320s are similar enough. They may even convert them to 320s anyway, unless that TSO is required.

 

[59CosG95]

Back on the OLE & civils side of things, a wee update on Kerse Rd Bridge. https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEGIP/status/1041703030532567041
The reinstated loop line has been re-tamped, and the last two parapets for the bridge itself are now in position.
Earth wires are also up beneath the bridge - catenary & contact wires can't be far away then.

 

[jawr256]

Breich Station reopened after a 12-week closure. Platforms have been reprofiled, with access to the eastbound platform now coming from the north, avoiding the need for a new footbridge.

Reopening has been pushed back, no new date confirmed.

All calls at Breich seem to have been cancelled for this week at least (according to RTT) since the expected reopening - any ideas why?

 

[route101]

Those Hydrogen-powered Class 321s could be a potential solution...ScotRail crews could have potentially minimal traction knowledge training, as the 320s are similar enough. They may even convert them to 320s anyway, unless that TSO is required.

Interesting , though incase of no electrification? Might as well order some DMUs

 

[deltic08]

I think east kilbride is also around GRIP 2 but more based around capacity improvements with electrification as an optional add on rather than electrification by itself as electrics won't add capacity over the 156's.

With Glasgow being the most air polluted city in the UK, you would think that everything possible would be done to eliminate fume belching idling 156s from Central station.

 

[gsnedders]

With Glasgow being the most air polluted city in the UK, you would think that everything possible would be done to eliminate fume belching idling 156s from Central station.

I would be very surprised if the DMUs contributed much to it; the Low Emissions Zone getting rid of the older buses will surely have a far larger effect than a small number of trains.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

With Glasgow being the most air polluted city in the UK, you would think that everything possible would be done to eliminate fume belching idling 156s from Central station.

I have great faith in Scotland - rolling sparks program etc

 

[Photohunter71]

Only crayonistas envision the return of passenger services. The upgrade of the sub is for freight and passenger diversions. Full stop.

Although not much freight goes round it these days, just the Cement which passed my flat at around 06:45 this morning and maybe the tyne dock to Mossend if it's running, the rest is just the 68's with coaching stock going on or off duty, other than that, it's engineers at weekends mostly Saturday night and Voyager turnarounds about the 10/11pm mark. It's a case of not never used but underused. If as you point out it has been upgraded or about to be upgraded for freight and passenger diverts, is there more freight planned to go round the sub route? It certainly makes sense for passenger diverts.

 

[InOban]

I believe that is the plan. Intermodal trains will be routed from, say, Felixstowe via Ely, Peterborough, new Werrington diveunder, Lincoln, and Doncaster. Could be electrically hauled from there.

 

[Photohunter71]

Thanks for your reply! More intermodal trains would be welcome,especially taking quite a few lorries off the road network from using your examples Felixtowe to Motherwell, lorries from central distribution points to shops thereafter, but that's joined up thinking!

 

[Aictos]

I have great faith in Scotland - rolling sparks program etc

My only fear is they've done so much that it's going to come to a sudden and crashing halt if they're not going to continue the programme.

Obviously there are plenty of places in Scotland which should be wired up but it all depends on if these decisions are taken.

 

[deltic08]

Only crayonistas envision the return of passenger services. The upgrade of the sub is for freight and passenger diversions. Full stop.

Can't divert if the service is by EMUs or anything electrically hauled. What then? It would have to be electrified first then possibly platforms later.

 

[InOban]

As I understand it, and I'm not on the inside, the upgrade of the sub, both clearance and wiring, is being funded out of UK budgets and some Scottish freight money. It's not coming out of Scotrail passenger funding because it's of no relevance to the Scotrail franchise.

 

[Southsider]

My only fear is they've done so much that it's going to come to a sudden and crashing halt if they're not going to continue the.

The head of the ScotRail alliance was quoted a few months back as saying that they were under pressure from the Scottish Government to bring forward schemes for the next phase of investment. However, my understanding is that revised Scottish Government rules say that local authorities (not the alliance) are responsible for bringing forward schemes in their area. In the example of the East Kilbride line, it passes through three different authority areas so who takes the lead? The situation seems confused and begs the question, who will initiate a project? and perhaps explains why there appears to be nothing in the pipeline.

Edit: are there parallels here with the confusion over responsibilities highlighted in the ORR report into the timetable change problems?