Scottish Independence White Paper - Railways

[JohnB57]

I suspect they'd just use the Scotrail Logo, much like NI doesn't use the double arrow.

I think that's more because Northern Ireland isn't part of (Great) Britain and its railways have always been operated separately from BR.

 

[thenorthern]

I over heard a load of SNP campaigners on the train today between Perth and Glasgow, I should have asked them about what they would do to the railways if they get their way.

 

[Francis]

What would the effect of Scots independence be on Rover tickets like the All-Line Rover?

Obviously the ALR would cover only England and Wales.

The Interrail Pass for Scots would be usable throughout England and Wales (because they become "foreigners", and vice versa) - but an English Interrail would be wasted on travel in Scotland because there is already the Scots all-line rover at a reasonable price.

Presumably other Rover tickets crossing the border, like the North-West Rover which includes Lockerbie and Dumfries, would forfeit all travel north of Carlisle. Probably no advance bargain fares from England to Edinburgh or Glasgow either? Only as far as Carlisle.

Think of paying international postal and parcel rates for letters/parcels to/from Scotland as well.

 

[reb0118]

Re. the last post (#63 ) there would be nothing in theory that would stop the above happening (i.e through ticketing & rover fares) if both countries were to become independent. Specifically with regard to postal (& telecommunication) rates a reciprocal agreement (based on the current charges) could easily be introduced to maintain the status quo i.e. in practice treat Anglo - Scottish business as internal for post & telecoms.

For rail fares the border could also be non existent. E.g. look at Deutsche Bahn who offer value fares on certain cross - border European journey. Some in fact crossing more than one e.g. the London Spezial (UK/France/Belgium/Germany & v.v.) and the Schweden Spezial (Germany/Denmark/Sweden & v.v.)

 

[Polo Mint]

Why should Scotland get any say what so ever on the railways if they secede? They would be the ones who want to leave the rest of the UK leaving 3 Home Nations left, not the other way around.

 

[reb0118]

Why should Scotland get any say what so ever on the railways if they secede?

Even on those railways currently north of the border?

 

[anme]

Why should Scotland get any say what so ever on the railways if they secede? They would be the ones who want to leave the rest of the UK leaving 3 Home Nations left, not the other way around.

I find this attitude impossible to understand. You might like to think about the fact that some cross border trains are subsidised. Don't you want Scotland to pay a share of the subsidies?

 

[oliMw]

If you ask me the English should take back all their trains if Scotland is so insistent on leaving. Doing that should be able to sort out most lines in England and Wales, of course I believe independence could open a massive can of worms on the economy of Scotland, metaphorically though!

 

[Yew]

Since all rolling stock and track is owned by private companies, surely they would have the option to do as they see fit. Talking about somehow 'giving' all of the stock and track to the Scottish government is as ludicrous as saying BHS have to give all their Scottish stores to the Scottish government.

However, I suppose that britain could outbid scotland for all of the stock north of the border, when it is time to renew the contracts, if they so wish

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why are the English so ratty and childish about the independence question?

 

[Trog]

Why should Scotland get any say what so ever on the railways if they secede? They would be the ones who want to leave the rest of the UK leaving 3 Home Nations left, not the other way around.

Lets be grown up about this one people, while some things are very questionable depending on things like the attitude of the EU to a New Scotland. Perhaps driven by a desire of some member states to show their own minorities that independence is a very costly option. What would happen to the ownership of the railway is pretty obvious.

Network Rail is a private English company, which at that level makes it none of Scotland's business. However as it is government owned it is also a British national asset, which makes Scotland a proportional owner of that company, the question is how to share it out?

There are two options it stays one company, and Scotland gets a percentage. Or the company is split between the two national groups, in which case change of ownership at the boarder is the only sensible option. I don't think the first option would work as Scotland's percentage would be so small compared with the rest of the UK, that it would hardly be worth them turning up for the board meetings, and because differing national policies would constantly cause friction. So the railway network will probably be split into two with separate ownership each side of the boarder.

How to maintain and run the railway? Scotland could employ Network Rail to maintain and run its railway, but I would think in their pride at their independence they would opt for a Scotwork Rail instead.

Running trains nothing is likely to change at first, with some agreement in place splitting how much each government pays and receives from the current arrangements.

It will however get interesting when the contracts come up for renewal as there will be endless scope for playing politics and trying to offload costs on the other country.

 

[Monty]

Why are the English so ratty and childish about the independence question?

I would assume its because of the Anti-English 'them and us' mentality that the SNP have been drumming up for years, though in all irony it was the English that have fallen for it more than the Scots have me.

Just a thought, and a rather concerning one for all involved. If a yes vote was passed Scotland would effectively be a single party state considering the lack of popularity of the Labour and Tories...

 

[VauxhallandI]

I would assume its because of the Anti-English 'them and us' mentality that the SNP have been drumming up for years, though in all irony it was the English that have fallen for it more than the Scots have me.

Just a thought, and a rather concerning one for all involved. If a yes vote was passed Scotland would effectively be a single party state considering the lack of popularity of the Labour and Tories...

You hardly hear any of the SNP drum banging down hear, I do however hear a lot of rubbish from the press about Scotland.

According to some sectors of the press the entire population of Scotland sits at Gretna with a begging bowl waiting for a generous foreigner to pop some coppers in their mitts.

If the English have swallowed all the gum of then why are they so bitter about a YES vote? I would have thought they'd be happy.

The truth of the matter is there is no independent view so garnering the facts is hard besides you cannot predicted what will happen.

I would have thought it wise to get the EU questions answered prior to the referendum however even with these answers it doesn't mean it would or wouldn't work.

What exactly is work or not work?

I am undecided Scot with no vote anyway

 

[WatcherZero]

If the English have swallowed all the gum of then why are they so bitter about a YES vote? I would have thought they'd be happy.

They do, higher percentage support for Scottish independence in England than there is in Scotland.

Last figures I saw Scotland Nov 2013 yes 27%, No 56%, undecided 17%
In England Nov 2012 yes 46% no 26%

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Where in any of the company documentation does it say that NR is an English company? Can you point me towards it or are you "scaremongering"?

the fact it;s registered with the *English* Companies House, with an *English* company number ...

various of the registration bodies for organisations have seperate English and socttish registered - most noticeable with charities where Scottish Charities have an entirely seperate system of registration number.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They do, higher percentage support for Scottish independence in England than there is in Scotland.

Last figures I saw Scotland Nov 2013 yes 27%, No 56%, undecided 17%
In England Nov 2012 yes 46% no 26%

Scotland is a nation of less than 10% of the UK population , and it does not control all the north sea oil and gas reserves regardless of what people are being told ( otherwise why it a lot of it landed in Lincolnshire ... )

People in England are quite happy to let Salmond be hoisted on his own petard ...

 

[thenorthern]

Here is what I will think will happen if independence happens

Will the railways be affected? Yes
Will there be less cross border trains? Most Likely
Will they still use the same tickets? Unlikely
Will the two arrows logo still be used? Probably not

Something I was looking at is would the Scottish Government still subsidise the hourly service from Dumfries to Carlisle,

 

[Kettledrum]

.... What would happen to the ownership of the railway is pretty obvious.

Network Rail is a private English company, which at that level makes it none of Scotland's business. However as it is government owned it is also a British national asset, which makes Scotland a proportional owner of that company, the question is how to share it out?

There are two options it stays one company, and Scotland gets a percentage. Or the company is split between the two national groups, in which case change of ownership at the boarder is the only sensible option. I don't think the first option would work as Scotland's percentage would be so small compared with the rest of the UK, that it would hardly be worth them turning up for the board meetings, and because differing national policies would constantly cause friction. So the railway network will probably be split into two with separate ownership each side of the boarder.

How to maintain and run the railway? Scotland could employ Network Rail to maintain and run its railway, but I would think in their pride at their independence they would opt for a Scotwork Rail instead.

Running trains nothing is likely to change at first, with some agreement in place splitting how much each government pays and receives from the current arrangements.

It will however get interesting when the contracts come up for renewal as there will be endless scope for playing politics and trying to offload costs on the other country.

A Scotwork Rail model for Scotland would be very interesting, and raises all sorts of financial questions including who pays for track maintenance and what about the viability of cross border trains?

Network Rail in England could pay for the maintenance costs of the remote rural track in England.

Scotwork Rail would have to pay for the maintenance costs of the remote rural track in Scotland.

I imagine Network Rail would have deeper pockets, because of the economies of scale and all their income from the South East. The maintenance costs would be proportionately more for Scotland to find.

In terms of the passenger flows, I don't know whether they are more from Scots travelling South of more from the English travelling North. The border traffic though will be a bigger proportion of Scotwork Rail's business than it would be for Network Rail, so much riskier if the finances go wrong.

Is the so the cross border rail traffic much more significant for the Scottish Economy than for the English Economy? If so, then this would create additional tensions about who pays for the cross border rail network.

 

[clc]

They do, higher percentage support for Scottish independence in England than there is in Scotland.

Last figures I saw Scotland Nov 2013 yes 27%, No 56%, undecided 17%
In England Nov 2012 yes 46% no 26%

The latest Scottish poll shows:
Yes 38%
No 47%
D/K 15%
(Sunday Times 24 Nov 2013)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

the fact it;s registered with the *English* Companies House, with an *English* company number ...

Ah, yes. You'll be thinking of the Registrar of Companies for England and Wales, whose head office is in Cardiff. That's Cardiff in Wales.

And the Registrar is an executive function of the UK Government's Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

There isn't an English Companies House any more than there has been an English government for 300 years.

 

[Bevan Price]

I reckon you are being nieve in believing that England will remain in the EU with the massive conservative majority after independence.

And there could be massive disquiet in some of the English regions after they had endured years of more or less permanent conservative rule.

Greater Northumbria Indepedence movement, maybe ?

 

[PMN1]

After reading the section on defence I'm finding it very difficult to take the white paper seriously (I mention it as the armed forces may be one of the only examples where it's mismanaged and underfunded more than the railways). There are an awful lot of gaps and questions to where the additional funding will come from.

The SNP's paper just seems to assume everyone else will do exactly what the SNP says they will do....absolutely no room for things not going according to plan.

Sir Humphrey has a good assessment of the defence side at least on his Thin Pinstriped Line pages

http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/assessment-on-proposals-for-scottish.html

http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/assessment-on-proposals-for-scottish_30.html

 

[tbtc]

The SNP's paper just seems to assume everyone else will do exactly what the SNP says they will do....absolutely no room for things not going according to plan

Its a bit like one party in a divorce deciding that they want to keep 100% of the car, they'll continue to share the joint bank account but they don't want to be lumbered with the credit card debts.

I wouldn't take the SNP's wishlist too seriously as a guide to what kind of settlement would be realistic between the two countries (assuming that the "yes" vote happens, which is far from guaranteed).

 

[Train Pilchard]

English people are so misinformed about Scottih independence, funny but sad.

 

[ainsworth74]

Then why don't you inform us?

 

[oldman]

Possible consequences of a yes vote, which I am against.

Short term new logo (or rather the Scotrail logo will replace the barbed wire) - I suspect all the sign makers will vote yes, there will be lots of work for them. Long term, separate infrastructure company, increasing drift apart in systems. Officials in Scotland will want to have their own way of doing things, it's the natural bureacratic response. Going along with the UK way of doing things will not be politically acceptable.

I can see TPE no longer serving Scotland to reduce the number of international operators. The UK side is likely to look at actual revenue from anglo-scottish traffic and suggest Scotland bear a suitable share of costs north of Newcastle and Preston, not just Berwick and Carlisle.

Independence would be a strange experience. We would start side by side, then gradually move further and further apart as decisions get made. Railways would be the same.

 

[chris89]

English people are so misinformed about Scottish independence, funny but sad.

Can't be helped with the majority of the media. Both camps are as biased as each other. Also helpful not to suggest the majority are either.

 

[WatcherZero]

The latest Scottish poll shows:
Yes 38%
No 47%
D/K 15%
(Sunday Times 24 Nov 2013)

Angus Reid 29 Nov, Yes 27%, No 47%

This website run by the BBC's favourite Scottish Westminster election night pollster and has a good archive of polling results.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-1#line

 

[YorkshireBear]

Scotland would have to take some of the Network Rail debt would they not? Especially considering how much Network Rail are investing in Scotland.

 

[reb0118]

Just a thought, and a rather concerning one for all involved. If a yes vote was passed Scotland would effectively be a single party state considering the lack of popularity of the Labour and Tories...

Then we can ditch the Queen and install Robert Mugabe as president for life.

In all seriousness though I do not think that Scotland will become a one party state after Independence. IMO the SNP would devolve into its constituent parts of "Tartan Tories" and "Nationalist-Socialists". These is turn would merge with their ideological brothers the Convervatives and Labour respectively and we will have the old two party system that we all know and love.

Simples.

 

[Polo Mint]

Scotland won't be a single party state unless the system is un-democratic, but that would be unlikely. On the same token the UK won't be Tory dominated. The following link shows that since 1945 only three general elections would have had a different outcome had Scotland not been part of the UK, namely closely fought elections or hung Parliaments of 1964, 1974 and 2010. http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

Lets be grown up about this one people, while some things are very questionable depending on things like the attitude of the EU to a New Scotland. Perhaps driven by a desire of some member states to show their own minorities that independence is a very costly option. What would happen to the ownership of the railway is pretty obvious.

Network Rail is a private English company, which at that level makes it none of Scotland's business. However as it is government owned it is also a British national asset, which makes Scotland a proportional owner of that company, the question is how to share it out?

There are two options it stays one company, and Scotland gets a percentage. Or the company is split between the two national groups, in which case change of ownership at the boarder is the only sensible option. I don't think the first option would work as Scotland's percentage would be so small compared with the rest of the UK, that it would hardly be worth them turning up for the board meetings, and because differing national policies would constantly cause friction. So the railway network will probably be split into two with separate ownership each side of the boarder.

How to maintain and run the railway? Scotland could employ Network Rail to maintain and run its railway, but I would think in their pride at their independence they would opt for a Scotwork Rail instead.

Running trains nothing is likely to change at first, with some agreement in place splitting how much each government pays and receives from the current arrangements.

It will however get interesting when the contracts come up for renewal as there will be endless scope for playing politics and trying to offload costs on the other country.

What I meant that why would Scotland get to seize the assets from a private company, especially when they would choose the path themselves through a vote.

It is worth noting that people from England, Scotland, Wales and N.I paid for the infrastructure, which would mean if Scotland wanted out of the Network Rail arrangement then it would be very complex and they shouldn't just be allowed to automatically take it.

And there could be massive disquiet in some of the English regions after they had endured years of more or less permanent conservative rule.

Greater Northumbria Indepedence movement, maybe ?

There are many Tory voters in the Northumbria area, but the current First Past the post system punishes the Tories and Lib Dems hugely in that area. Likewise there are many Labour voters in Essex (despite there being no Labour constituencies there), but the voting system there punishes parties in areas where they are not as dominant.

Unfortunately people notice very few Tory MP's in their area and assume Tories don't represent them, even if they have similar private views. Probably a very similar issue for Labour down South, not to mention parties usually campaign and market in areas where they can actually win seats, so many areas may never have had a campaign from a particular party in a monopoly area. A very unhealthy political system, of course parties have their strongest areas, but many own swathes of safe seats in a given area. If Scotland were to go then it may emphasise the Political North-South divide more and Labour might compensate by gaining a larger grip on Northern and Welsh area.

English people are so misinformed about Scottih independence, funny but sad.

More than likely, however are they more misinformed than some Scottish people thinking one former female Prime Minister had a hatred for them?