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Scrapping Edinburgh trams would cost £750m

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Eng274

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Is it just mean or have they built the trams longer than the platforms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_tram_02.jpg

that was a haphazard static display for the travelling public to have a look inside them, i'd hope the platforms were able to accommodate their full length, but it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't.


So in three years we've gone from a £545m tram 'network' to a £700m half-line running to Haymarket, and an extra £70m needs to be coughed up to run it up to St andrews Square?! Seriously? It's no use to man nor beast if it doesn't go right into town, which means that passengers will have to catch the bus to complete the journey, the very thing these trams were meant to reduce usage of.

get rid of the whole thing ASAP. It will turn into a national joke, Edinburgh council will still be paying this farce off after the UK Govt has finished paying for WW3 at this rate.
 

yorksrob

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We could do with some similarly "courageous" decisions regarding some guided busways.
 

90019

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So in three years we've gone from a £545m tram 'network' to a £700m half-line running to Haymarket, and an extra £70m needs to be coughed up to run it up to St andrews Square?! Seriously? It's no use to man nor beast if it doesn't go right into town, which means that passengers will have to catch the bus to complete the journey, the very thing these trams were meant to reduce usage of.

I note that there's no mention of a predicted cost for extending it to Newhaven.
 

WatcherZero

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Councils apparantly had an offer by a private firm to buy the line (or a concession) complete the work along with the extension then operate it for a profit. Similar to what Stagecoach did in Sheffield for the failing tramline. Doesnt say who made the offer but wouldnt be surprised if it was Stagecoach again.
 

tbtc

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Councils apparantly had an offer by a private firm to buy the line (or a concession) complete the work along with the extension then operate it for a profit. Similar to what Stagecoach did in Sheffield for the failing tramline. Doesnt say who made the offer but wouldnt be surprised if it was Stagecoach again.

Stagecoach transformed the trams here, boosted passenger numbers considerably, introduced conductors to all journeys (previously trams didn't have them), made a massive difference to the perception of the tram.

Hope the same could be done in Edinburgh.
 

43106

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Councils apparently had an offer by a private firm to buy the line (or a concession), complete the work along with the extension then operate it for a profit. Doesn't say who made the offer, but wouldnt be surprised if it was Stagecoach again.
Before the contract was awarded to Billfinger (or whatever they're called), one of the tenders said they would build the line at no cost to anyone, but then THEY would run it with no interference from the Council. I suspect this is the same firm, but I DON'T think it's Stagecoach - at least I hope it isn't Stagecoach.
 

WestCoast

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Before the contract was awarded to Billfinger (or whatever they're called), one of the tenders said they would build the line at no cost to anyone, but then THEY would run it with no interference from the Council. I suspect this is the same firm, but I DON'T think it's Stagecoach - at least I hope it isn't Stagecoach.

It would be all built by now then....:lol:
 

Eng274

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I note that there's no mention of a predicted cost for extending it to Newhaven.

Because it would push it well past the £1bn mark presumably, and the simple comparison between the budgeted £545m and the actual figure would make for terrible reading. too many councillors and MSPs would lose their cushy jobs for this to be revealed.

I am also bemused at SNP's stance. They are now more keen than not-keen to see the project finished, after pleading that their minority govt could not overrule the opposing parties to cancel the project four years ago.

with Mr Souter being a well-known SNP donor, there may be some truth in the shift of tactics of the SNP to flog the half finished route to them at a basement price. Remember the planned bus re-regulation bill that was quietly removed after some green changed hands?
 

rail-britain

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I note that there's no mention of a predicted cost for extending it to Newhaven.
Go to page 13 of the report and the costs are listed there
Leith Walk £100m
Leith Walk to Newhaven £160m
Reinstatement costs £2.3m - £3.4m

I have my doubts about the costs as there are great discrepancies, between costs so far and further costs to be incurred (and the above three have not changed since original estimate in 2010)

Assuming £440m has already been spent
The budget was £545m was the budget

To cancel the project will cost £750m (an additional £205m)
To complete the project to Haymarket will cost £700m (an additional £155m)
To complete the project to St Andrews Sq will cost £770m (an additional £225m)

Newhaven is an extension and a separate issue
Equally, the ground work is in place should (in the unlikely event now) that this extension proceed

I fail to see how cancelling the project will cost £205m, as all the track and infrastructure would need to be removed, given all the costs so far of all this installation to where it is now
Equally, completing the project to Haymarket is nonsense, as most passengers will want to travel to the City Centre (to me personally that is at least Princes Street)

Completing the route to St Andrew Sq leaves 10 trams spare
Strangely, this is the only option which lists their costs and options, to either sell these or lease until the Newhaven extension is completed (realising possible income of £25m)

This leaves a funding gap of £77m

Finally, I cannot see there being a handover to Stagecoach as I believe there is an agreement in place that due to the removal of the pre-existing services by Lothian Transport they then become the preferred operator
However, no doubt EU competition rules will dictate that if an operators sale is to proceed then any such agreement becomes nul and void
Whether Stagecoach would be interested is debatable, as the Gogar Interchange would be of more interest to First Group (or the incumbent ScotRail franchise operator in 2013 onwards)
 
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WatcherZero

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Simple, cancelling the project it will never earn any revenue while you will continue to be paying the interest on the loans. Completing it you get revenue in which offsets the interest payments. Even though it will cost money to complete you will earn more in revenue than you spend.
 

Greenback

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Simple, cancelling the project it will never earn any revenue while you will continue to be paying the interest on the loans. Completing it you get revenue in which offsets the interest payments. Even though it will cost money to complete you will earn more in revenue than you spend.

That sort of common sense analysis is way out of place in the UK :lol:
 

Tom B

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But how much revenue will the tram generate, and how much will come from passengers who already pay to use a bus? Remembering that the idea was for LRT to operate (and subsidise!) the trams.
 

Greenback

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But how much revenue will the tram generate, and how much will come from passengers who already pay to use a bus? Remembering that the idea was for LRT to operate (and subsidise!) the trams.

It will generate more revenue than if it is not built. It will also attract people who would not use a bus.
 

rail-britain

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Equally, I have just realised why the Newhaven extension is not included and obvious

If you add that to the £750m it takes the total to £1000m
Therefore "750 million" sounds better than "1 billion", the people of Edinburgh and Scotland would have a fit if they knew it was that much...
 

tbtc

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Whether Stagecoach would be interested is debatable, as the Gogar Interchange would be of more interest to First Group (or the incumbent ScotRail franchise operator in 2013 onwards)

Thats exactly why Stagecoach may be interested, the tram won't hurt their income, but a successful tram would encourage more people onto the Stagecoach service which connects with it (take the 747 to the Airport and change there for the tram to Gyle/ Edinburgh Park etc, use the tram to the Airport and change to the 747 for Fife)

As for the other comments on this thread, the tram's problems are to do with poor project management and nothing to do with trams - the Sheffield one overcame a lot of problems being designed/ built/ started but has now become a success.
 

Greenback

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As for the other comments on this thread, the tram's problems are to do with poor project management and nothing to do with trams - the Sheffield one overcame a lot of problems being designed/ built/ started but has now become a success.

Indeed, are there any LRT systems that are not now cosnidered beneficial? I seem to recall there were problems with Croydon, but that system is working well now I believe, despite the initial difficulties.
 

tbtc

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Indeed, are there any LRT systems that are not now cosnidered beneficial? I seem to recall there were problems with Croydon, but that system is working well now I believe, despite the initial difficulties.

I think the "weakest" of the lot is the West Midlands one, but I base this opinion more on personal views of passenger numbers/ enthusiast gossip (and not having studied the accounts for each system!

Despite the problems they've generally had being built/ early years, I think they've all worked out well in the end (and its noticeable how better GMPTE/ TfGM are at doing new lines, now they've had experience of building older ones).

Who knows, maybe we'll be saying the same thing about the Cambridge Busway in a few years time... :lol:
 

Greenback

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I think the "weakest" of the lot is the West Midlands one, but I base this opinion more on personal views of passenger numbers/ enthusiast gossip (and not having studied the accounts for each system!

Despite the problems they've generally had being built/ early years, I think they've all worked out well in the end (and its noticeable how better GMPTE/ TfGM are at doing new lines, now they've had experience of building older ones).

Who knows, maybe we'll be saying the same thing about the Cambridge Busway in a few years time... :lol:

Maybe...it may seem extremely far fetched but stranger thinks have happened.

Nurse, my medication, quick!
 

tbtc

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Maybe...it may seem extremely far fetched but stranger thinks have happened.

Nurse, my medication, quick!

I know its not a popular opinion on here.

But most railway openings/ re-openings/ significant upgrades have taken too long and run over budget, same goes for most new stock (arriving in service late, costing too much, teething troubles), yet everything generally works out okay medium/longer term. Give the busway five years and I reckon it'll be doing okay. If the Edinburgh tram ever opens I reckon its a reasonably sound route/plan too. Call me a naive fool...
 

dalmahoyhill

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Simple, cancelling the project it will never earn any revenue while you will continue to be paying the interest on the loans. Completing it you get revenue in which offsets the interest payments. Even though it will cost money to complete you will earn more in revenue than you spend.

Plus the council would have to no doubt pay hefty compensation to Bilfiger Berger for cancelling the contract. Most of the adjudications have gone the contractors way which suggests the council is sitting on large contractual liabilities.

The whole thing is a monumental cock up of the highest order. I was pro the trams but really you cannot defend what has happened.

We need an inquiry to find out what happened. The problem is as they are in arbitration its all smoke and mirrors at the moment. When things 1st started going wrong Carillion got the blame for service relocations overrunning, then Billfiger Berger got the blame for being a usual vicarious contractor. TIE cannot really hide behind that any more, it seems to be the lawyers who prepared the contract who are getting blamed now.

Trying to piece together the strands of info, including the audit Scotland report, my theory of what went wrong is as follows:
Firstly the audit scotland report said service relocations cost £65mill against a budget of £50mill so against the total cost of 540mill its not a big cost overun. It overan by year but I think its a red herring.

The audit commission report said that TIE claimed that when it signed a fixed price contract with the contractor it offloaded all risk away from the council. How i laughed at that. That only works when there is absolute certainty in scope. There is no such thing as a contract that delivers no risk to the client when there is lots of ambiguity or unfinished work at time of signing. Anyone within TIE who works in the industry should have known this. As an engineer who works for a private consultant, public sector clients think they can always push away risk but it always ends up biting them as they dont understand you need certainty in design and information for that to work, with uncertainty its best to have contigency and go target cost and share the risk. To many public sector bodies cannot write contracts or understand handling risk.

It said that detailed design of the civil and mechanical and electrical elements of work were not complete and neither was the service relocations when the contract was signed with Bilfiger Berger. Bingo i think, this is what went wrong. This is a monumentality stupid thing to do by TIE.

So Bilfiger Berger took on a job where the council thought they took all the risk yet they had no finished design for Bilfiger Berger price his tender accurately against and no idea of when he could start due to service relocations overunning. No contractor worth his salt would sign up to that without caveat-ing it to say that anything out of his control like service relocations or changes in design between contract signing and starting on site will be charged as extra.

To me it sounds as if the contract signing should have been delayed until the detailed design and service relocations were complete, or it should have been signed as a target cost contract if the council really couldn't wait, although that is still not a brilliant idea, as it is still risky.

I did overhear from another engineer suggest that one of the reasons the lines in princess street need rework is that the council leaned on the contractor to rush it in time to open for Hogmany, bearing in mind the service relocations finished a year late so Bilfiger Berger started later through no fault of their own. Any arbitrator would rule for the Contractor in a case like that as the client has changed the programme.

It appears that getting the works started at any cost overruled any common sense about leaving the council liable with such incomplete work at time of signing. Either Councillors leaned on TIE to sign it too quickly or TIE were plain incompetent. They should have waited till design and service relocations were finished and should have given the contractor the original length of time to complete the works, and therefore opened late but on cost. Instead its going to be years late and massively overcost.

It will be interesting to find out really what happened some time in the future.

Either way its a complete disaster for the city, the council and for people who support public transport investment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seing as trams have been completed in Manchester, sheffield, Nottingham, Croydon etc does anyone know if TIE had recruited anyone who worked on these schemes? You would assume not
 
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anthony263

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Simple solution paint them yellow and grey, then send them down to manchester.

Mnachetser trams are high floor.More than likely some of the edinburgh trams would be leased to TFL for use on the croydon network which, yes it did have problems is now very popular (perhaps too popular)
 

kylemore

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Methinks Souter/stagecoach is playing a long game here, he's been infiltrating Lothian Buses with his people for a while now and that may be ultimate target.
As a reward for rescuing the edinburgh/scottish establishment out of this cock-up he gains control over Lothian buses?
 

Tom B

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It would be very unfortunate if the Council allowed this to happen - Lothian is one of the few competent bus operators, and that's because it is run by the council not by some profit-making company.
 
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