Scrapping of Mk3 sleeper vehicles by British Rail

[modernrail]

Some very interestimg comments and information, particularly on use by military personnel. I hadn't appreciated that market.

Whilst my OP probably came across as a political rant, it wasn't intended as such. I have voted Tory as many times as I have voted Labour, although that has pattern has now most definitely hit the end of the line.

My OP was more inspired by a mix of grieving that these sleeper services don't exist any more, or never came into service (same with regional Eurostar), mixed with a frustration. I use sleepers whenever I can and am currently in Sweden where use is apparently on the up from people who don't want to chug a load more emissions into the system where possible. I also love the efficiency of an overnight journey whilst acknowledging the subsidy required is really difficult to justify (hence my interest on how OBB are doing as they seem keen on running and even extending their network). I also accept the influence of increased air travel but actually cities like Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester have pretty poor connections to elsewhere in the UK so they have sort of lost out on both counts except on travel to London which is pretty good by train. However there is more to the UK than London.

The frustration partly relates to the last point. I grew up on Pacers and hated them from being a young child. For me they have come to symbolise a really disgraceful attitude by an overly centralised system to the north. Lots of painful decisions were taken that causes immeasurable harm to northern communities. Some had to be taken but the bit after never came, where either central Government rolled its sleeves up or devolved proper power to the regions to become masters of their own destiny. That carries on to this day and is a curse.

The long and the short of it is this to me. PTE's made decisions based on budgets passed down to them from central Government. When you add in one column the amount spent on expensive stock that was hardly or never used and would have required significant subsidy as well as high capital costs and you add in a another column the amount invested in day time local and regional trains for the north (and South West and Wales), you see a problem. It is less a party political thing and more about national priorities. As much as I adore travel by sleeper and would have loved to travel Leeds to Paris, the national priority should always have been local and regional day trains and properly integrated travel. There is absolutely no reason why it could not have been achieved by now. I now live in London now but most of my mates back home have never used local trains regularly, preferring to sit in some fairly nasty traffic, because they will not step on a Pacer under any circumstances. If money really was scarce, we should have invested in the most important things first. The Governments of all colours should have been complaining about lack of growth outside London and putting themselves to task to solve the problem. Instead they complained about the benefits bill instead of doing something about it. It is actually really sad where we have ended up, especially when you consider where we are at this particular moment.

That we finally have some better stock but Northern and ASLEF can't even agree on a training plan adds the final nails into the coffin. Come on guys, whoever is to blame get around a table and thrash it out. There is always a solution somewhere! The north has been waiting an awful long time for these units.

 

[dubscottie]

I remember someone saying on here that the Scotland to South West sleeper was one of the better routes, but didn't fit in anywhere at privatisation.

At privatisation (1st April 1994), the London - Scotland & Scotland - SW sleepers were operated by the Intercity West Coast TOC. They were planning to withdraw the sleepers but there was political uproar.

The ScotRail TOC took over the London - Scotland routes and the Scotland - SW trains were to transfer to the Cross Country TOC. It would have been a logistical nightmare for them and that service was running almost empty most nights due to the RN pulling out of Rosyth so it was scrapped.

 

[yorksrob]

At privatisation (1st April 1994), the London - Scotland & Scotland - SW sleepers were operated by the Intercity West Coast TOC. They were planning to withdraw the sleepers but there was political uproar.

The ScotRail TOC took over the London - Scotland routes and the Scotland - SW trains were to transfer to the Cross Country TOC. It would have been a logistical nightmare for them and that service was running almost empty most nights due to the RN pulling out of Rosyth so it was scrapped.

The sensible thing would surely have been to keep them both with the West Coast franchise. Perhaps Branson would have thrown his toys out the pram.

 

[dubscottie]

The sensible thing would surely have been to keep them both with the West Coast franchise. Perhaps Branson would have thrown his toys out the pram.

I can't recall the exact politics involved but it came down to who paid the subsidy.

Westminster was not prepared to foot the bill so it came out the Scottish Office budget (later the devolved Scottish Parliament) on the condition the remaining sleepers were run by ScotRail.

Or something like that.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't recall the exact politics involved but it came down to who paid the subsidy.

Westminster was not prepared to foot the bill so it came out the Scottish Office budget (later the devolved Scottish Parliament) on the condition the remaining sleepers were run by ScotRail.

Or something like that.

I vaguely remember the political kerfuffle at the time.

 

[Bald Rick]

At privatisation (1st April 1994), the London - Scotland & Scotland - SW sleepers were operated by the Intercity West Coast TOC. They were planning to withdraw the sleepers but there was political uproar.

The ScotRail TOC took over the London - Scotland routes and the Scotland - SW trains were to transfer to the Cross Country TOC. It would have been a logistical nightmare for them and that service was running almost empty most nights due to the RN pulling out of Rosyth so it was scrapped.

I’m not sure there was a plan to scrap the sleepers at privatisation, except for the Fort Bill which was reprieved with a few days to spare.

 

[dubscottie]

I’m not sure there was a plan to scrap the sleepers at privatisation, except for the Fort Bill which was reprieved with a few days to spare.

It was later, when the West Coast TOC was up for franchising.

From what I can recall, the Scottish sleepers were going to be axed unless someone took them over from the West Coast TOC. There was talk of a separate franchise (like today) but that was not an option at the time. It would never make money.

They were transferred to ScotRail in the end. I can't remember the date but it was when they went from WC 87 haulage to EWS 90s. (Around 1996 or 1997 I think, maybe later)

 

[Meerkat]

Doesn’t the Scottish sleeper only really continue because of political games - Osborne called the SNP’s bluff?
The SNP said the UK wanted to stop this ‘crucial’ service as a political dog whistle so Osborne fronted £50m and left the SNP no political choice but to match it.