season ticket, goring by sea to horsham

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jimmy030470

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On my season ticket goring by sea to horsham it says any permitted route. I have been told this means I can go via barnham or go via brighton and three bridges. It was a train conductor that told me this but I am not sure what would happen if I tried to put my ticket in the barrier at brighton ,would it let me through.
 
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SickyNicky

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Hello, and welcome to the forum.

Calculating permitted routes is pretty complex. The official guide to this is found at http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

The shortest route is via Ford, so this route is always allowed. The Brighton route is over 13 miles longer than the Ford route, so we need to check if Brighton is an appropriate routeing point for Goring by Sea.

To check this we have to look at the single fare from Goring to Horsham and compare it to the single fare from Brighton to Horsham. Since the fare from Brighton is higher, we're not allowed to use Brighton as a routeing point.

So, you are not actually permitted to travel via Brighton.

Sometimes guards and gateline staff are not properly trained on the routeing guide and may think that routes are allowed when they shouldn't be, and vice versa. Often a route that is not permitted will be accepted if it's "reasonable". The gates at Brighton may or may not let you out.

If I were in your situation, I would first get confirmation in writing from the train operating company that they will accept your ticket via Brighton.
 

jimmy030470

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What about if i got the ticket to run from goring by sea to crawley, its only £2.40 more but on the planner it seems to alow travel both via barnham or brighton and three birdges.
 

SickyNicky

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Yes - that would be fine. Your ticket would be valid via Ford or Brighton to Crawley.

Since Horsham is on the route via Ford, it would be fine to use the ticket to Crawley via Brighton and Three Bridges and then continue to use it from Crawley to Horsham.

If your intention is to normally commute via Ford to Horsham, but occasionally go to Brighton (and not actually go to Horsham via Brighton) then the Crawley ticket is the one to get. If the barriers at Brighton don't open, just show the ticket to the staff to be let through. Ticket barriers frequently don't understand ticket validity.
 
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jimmy030470

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thank you very much for your help, you help will save me a lot of money just a shame i didnt know before as i often go to shoreham and brighton and buy i ticket when as it turns out i didnt need to if i knew about how routing works.
 

SickyNicky

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You're very welcome. If you or your friends ever want to make a rail journey, feel free to ask here and the experts will help you with fares and routes.
 

johnnycache

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Southern are simplifying their fares
Outside zones 1-6 the maximum weekly season ticket fare is £60 for journeys wholly within the Southern network (Example Barnham Three Bridges)
There are still a few exceptions as this is work in progress but thats the plan

For the journey Goring Horsham the fare is £52 per week and that's valid either way as long as none of the other intermediate fares are higher

Its also valid via Gatwick Airport and Barnham

If you do run into any trouble please contact customer services mentionning this post and we'll sort it out for you

If anyone finds any anomalies or problems please let me know
 

John @ home

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For the journey Goring Horsham the fare is £52 per week
Are you sure? National Fares Manual NFM 11 CD and NFM 12 CD, The Manual and Southern's season ticket mixing deck all show
GORING BY SEA 5272 - HORSHAM 5309
(Derived from LITTLEHAMPTON 5260 - HORSHAM. 5309)
7DS - SEVEN DAY STD SN
Route 00000 - ANY PERMITTED £49.60
What is your source for the £52.00 figure?
that's valid either way as long as none of the other intermediate fares are higher
But it has already been pointed out by SickyNicky in this post that, comparing single fares as instructed by the National Routeing Guide, "Since the fare from Brighton is higher, we're not allowed to use Brighton as a routeing point. So, you are not actually permitted to travel via Brighton."

SickyNicky's advice is based on the National Routeing Guide. What is yours based on?
 

bangor-toad

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Hmmm, so most of Southern's weekly season tickets are capped at £60 per week. Surely this means that it's worth considering maximising the route if you're already close to the £60 mark?

For example, live anywhere along the Coastaway West routes and need to travel in an area bounded by Southampton/Brighton/Lewes/South London/Horsham then a Southampton - Mersterham ticket at £60 per week will do.
(Would this be valid for Portsmouth/Bognor or Littlehampton trips?)

Similarly, anywhere along the coast seems accessible on a Southampton - Ashford International weekly at £60.

This all appears quite remarkable as a Brighton - Eastbourne weekly ticket is £53!

This seems like an impressive reduction / simplification or has it always been this way and I've just not known?
Cheers,
Jason
 

SickyNicky

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Southern are simplifying their fares
Outside zones 1-6 the maximum weekly season ticket fare is £60 for journeys wholly within the Southern network
However, the OPs journey is not (or may not be) wholly within the Southern network. For example, a Goring by Sea to Littlehaven season ticket routed "Any Permitted" would also be valid on First Great Western services between Ford and Brighton and on First Capital Connect services between Brighton and Three Bridges.

In any case, at £49.60 it is well below the notional £60 Southern cap you suggest.
 

johnnycache

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the process is not quite as far advanced as i had thought here are some examples:

Hastings Horsham 7DS £60.00
Eastbourne Horsham 7DS £60.00
Lewes Horsham 7DS £52.60*
Brighton Horsham 7DS £52.00
Hove Horsham 7DS £52.00
Portslade Horsham 7DS £60.00*
Shoreham Horsham 7DS £60.00*
Worthing Horsham 7DS £60.00*
Goring Horsham 7DS £49.60*
Littlehampton Horsham 7DS £49.60*
Ford Horsham 7DS £49.60*
Barnham Horsham £54.10*
Chichester Horsham 7DS £52.00
Bognor Regis Horsham 7DS £54.10*
Havant Horsham £60.00
Portsmouth Horsham £60.00
Southampton Horsham £60.00

Probably the best way of tidying this up would be to charge £52 from all the places with an asterisk with tickets valid (where relevant) via either Ford/Barnham or Hove/Brighton
We will be attempting further simplications in September
Comments welcome
 

jimmy030470

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Now you have all confused me, basically all I want to know is if I tried to use my season ticket from goring by sea to horsham to travel to bright on would I end up getting fined for not having a ticket. So I understand it would be better to get a ticket to littlehaven as this is more likely to cover that route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have also noticed that useing the southern website for a ticket form goring by sea to crawley it wont allow travel via barnham, only ford. But not many trains stop at ford and i know you can use the ticket to change at banham. Because of this the website wont ahow journeys that invole changing at barnham. also it wont allow changing at gatwick. The national rail enquires site seems to allow these journeys no problem so what am i to belive.
 

SickyNicky

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Sorry about that. The thread went off away from the original question.

Go with your original suggestion and use the Goring by Sea to Crawley ticket and you will not have any trouble going either way.

Goring by Sea to Crawley is valid and completely reasonable via Brighton or Ford. Forget the Littlehaven ticket.

As for travelling via Barnham, that would not normally be allowed (because you double back through Ford), but there is a specific easement (30141) that allows you to do this, so it IS valid.

You cannot travel via Gatwick Airport. You must change at Three Bridges if you choose to go that way.
 

John @ home

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Go with your original suggestion and use the Goring by Sea to Crawley ticket and you will not have any trouble going either way.

Goring by Sea to Crawley is valid and completely reasonable via Brighton or Ford.
Agreed.
As for travelling via Barnham, that would not normally be allowed (because you double back through Ford), but there is a specific easement (30141) that allows you to do this, so it IS valid.
Agreed. See Easements. I'm surprised that the Southern site doesn't implement this Easement. No doubt johnnycache is in a position to investigate the reason for this error. South West Trains correctly allows it.
You cannot travel via Gatwick Airport. You must change at Three Bridges if you choose to go that way.
Easement 70 is intended to allow travel via Gatwick Airport in these circumstances.
Easement 70

The following journeys may double back between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges:
(1) from Faygate to Haywards Heath,
(2) from Faygate and via Haywards Heath,
(3) via Faygate and to Haywards Heath,
(4) via Faygate and via Haywards Heath.
This easement applies in both directions.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf
On this occasion, neither Southern nor South West Trains allow the Easement. I wonder if the electronic version of Easement 70 implements it incorrectly?
 

SickyNicky

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Easement 70 is intended to allow travel via Gatwick Airport in these circumstances. On this occasion, neither Southern nor South West Trains allow the Easement. I wonder if the electronic version of Easement 70 implements it incorrectly?
Easement 70 only becomes relevant where your journey ends at or goes via Faygate. Crawley is before Faygate so I don't think the easement can be used in this case.
 

johnnycache

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I want to summarise here to see if i have got it right and sorry for any distraction my comments might have caused. Thanks for the expert opinions (much more expert than mine!)

1) Goring by Sea is not a routeing point. The applicable routeing points are BRIGHTON GROUP and FORD GROUP
2) Horsham is a routeing point
3) For a journey from Goring by Sea to Horsham there are no common routeing points between the origin and the destination. So it is necessary to invent one.
The obvious point is somewhere like Pulborough as the route via the Arun Valley is a lot shorter (29.75 miles versus 40.50 miles) and has a reasonable service
4) Barnham can be used as an interchange point in preference to Ford as both are in the same routeing group (despite the doubling back)
5) By using an alternative destination the routeings might be different. However unless Faygate or Littlehaven are chosen the fare may be higher eg Crawley or Three Bridges to Goring by Sea is £52 per week (7DS) instead of £49.60
6) For Littlehaven or Faygate there are two routeing points Three Bridges and Horsham. The mileage is however still longer via Three Bridges than via Horsham (33.00 miles via Horsham 38.25 miles via Three Bridges to Faygate)
7) Another alternative would be Durrington to Faygate (also priced at £49.60) In this case the mileage is still more via Three Bridges but there is only 3.75m in it compared to Horsham (33.75 miles via Horsham and 37.50 miles via Three Bridges to Faygate). Faygate also allows the easement via Gatwick Airport.

As far as i can see there is no entitlement to travel via Hove (or Brighton) but this isn't something Southern would be seeking to enforce and as i said if you have any trouble please let us know. Southern is trying to simplify all this so it will be easier for people to figure out what fare to buy without needing to be a specialist and any suggestions that might help would be very welcome
 

SickyNicky

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Thanks for taking the time to try to understand the routeing guide. A lot of rail staff don't, and some don't even know if its existence, even though it forms the basis of the contract formed with the passenger. So it's good to see you looking at it.

1) Goring by Sea is not a routeing point. The applicable routeing points are BRIGHTON GROUP and FORD GROUP
Correct-ish. Those are the two possible routeing points. Whether they are appropriate or not depends on the fares check rule. To be appropriate, the single fare from the routeing point must be the same or less than the single fare from the origin.

In the case of Goring by Sea to Horsham, this allows Ford Group but blocks Brighton Group. So the only appropriate routeing point is Ford Group.

2) Horsham is a routeing point
It is indeed. So no fares check is need in the reverse direction.

3) For a journey from Goring by Sea to Horsham there are no common routeing points between the origin and the destination.
Correct

So it is necessary to invent one.
The obvious point is somewhere like Pulborough as the route via the Arun Valley is a lot shorter (29.75 miles versus 40.50 miles) and has a reasonable service
No - you can't "invent" routeing points. All routeing points are defined by the National Rail Routeing Guide and those are the only ones you can use. In this case we have already worked out that the only appropriate routeing point is Ford Group.

4) Barnham can be used as an interchange point in preference to Ford as both are in the same routeing group (despite the doubling back)
It can, but not for that reason. Barnham is NOT a member of the Ford Group, so you can't double back between them like you normally would within a routeing group.

Instead we rely on easement 30141:

Customer travelling via Ford may doubleback via Barnham. This easement applies in both directions.
This allows travel via Barnham, overriding the double back which occurs.

5) By using an alternative destination the routeings might be different. However unless Faygate or Littlehaven are chosen the fare may be higher eg Crawley or Three Bridges to Goring by Sea is £52 per week (7DS) instead of £49.60
Yes. But as you say, the permitted routes may change so you need to calculate them for every combination of stations you try.

6) For Littlehaven or Faygate there are two routeing points Three Bridges and Horsham. The mileage is however still longer via Three Bridges than via Horsham (33.00 miles via Horsham 38.25 miles via Three Bridges to Faygate)
This is also the case for Crawley and Ifield. However, mileage doesn't come into this unless it's within 3 miles of the shortest route. So you must apply the fares check from Goring by Sea to Three Bridges and Goring by Sea to Horsham against the price of a single to any of these stations to see if you can travel that way.

7) Another alternative would be Durrington to Faygate (also priced at £49.60) In this case the mileage is still more via Three Bridges but there is only 3.75m in it compared to Horsham (33.75 miles via Horsham and 37.50 miles via Three Bridges to Faygate). Faygate also allows the easement via Gatwick Airport.
This would technically NOT be permitted by Brighton since it fails the fares check rule. The first station along that line that would be allowed to Faygate is West Worthing. But that is a lot more expensive.

As far as i can see there is no entitlement to travel via Hove (or Brighton) but this isn't something Southern would be seeking to enforce and as i said if you have any trouble please let us know. Southern is trying to simplify all this so it will be easier for people to figure out what fare to buy without needing to be a specialist and any suggestions that might help would be very welcome
I'm glad to hear that. I'm sure the OP of this thread would appreciate the first part of that in writing from you.

To get some more depth of understanding and to allow us to make suggestions, may I suggest that you think about attending one of our free fares workshops. They are often advertised on the forum and go into the routeing guide in some depth.

Message to jimmy030470

I'm sorry that this is so confusing. Unfortunately the routeing guide IS confusing.

If you buy the Goring by Sea to Crawley ticket you will be fine going both ways.
 

John @ home

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Thanks, johnnycache. Your interest is very much appreciated. My opinion is:
1) Goring by Sea is not a routeing point. The applicable routeing points are BRIGHTON GROUP and FORD GROUP
2) Horsham is a routeing point
Yes.
3) For a journey from Goring by Sea to Horsham there are no common routeing points between the origin and the destination.
Agreed.
So it is necessary to invent one.
No. It is not necessary to invent another Routeing Point (RP).

Step 3 of the Instructions to the National Routeing Guide details a short-cut procedure for determining Permitted Routes for shorter journeys where the origin and destination have one or more RPs in common. For longer journeys which do not have a RP in common, the full procedure in Steps 4-7 must be followed.
The obvious point is somewhere like Pulborough as the route via the Arun Valley is a lot shorter (29.75 miles versus 40.50 miles) and has a reasonable service
Creating an additional RP at Pulborough would not result in Horsham and Goring-by-Sea having a RP in common. From Goring-by-Sea, it would not be possible to reach Pulborough without passing through another RP, so Pulborough would not be an associated RP for Goring-by-Sea.
4) Barnham can be used as an interchange point in preference to Ford as both are in the same routeing group (despite the doubling back)
Not quite. The list of Group Stations tells us that Ford Group consists of Ford and Littlehampton. Therefore, Littlehampton can be used as an interchange point in preference to Ford as both are in the same RP group. Barnham can be used in this way due to a separate Easement 30141: "Customer travelling via Ford may doubleback via Barnham. This easement applies in both directions."
5) By using an alternative destination the routeings might be different. However unless Faygate or Littlehaven are chosen the fare may be higher eg Crawley or Three Bridges to Goring by Sea is £52 per week (7DS) instead of £49.60
Agreed. Using a different origin and/or destination may give different Permitted Routes.
6) For Littlehaven or Faygate there are two routeing points Three Bridges and Horsham. The mileage is however still longer via Three Bridges than via Horsham (33.00 miles via Horsham 38.25 miles via Three Bridges to Faygate)
Yes, but we know that the shortest route is always a Permitted Route (Instructions page A1) and that journeys no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route are always a permitted route (NRG in Detail page F9). Other than these two rules, distance plays no part in the calculation of Permitted Routes.
7) Another alternative would be Durrington to Faygate (also priced at £49.60) In this case the mileage is still more via Three Bridges but there is only 3.75m in it compared to Horsham (33.75 miles via Horsham and 37.50 miles via Three Bridges to Faygate). Faygate also allows the easement via Gatwick Airport.
My calculation is that Durrington - Faygate via Three Bridges is not a Permitted Route because
  • it is more than three miles longer than the shortest route, and
  • Brighton Group is not an appropriate RP for this journey because it fails the Fares Check.
NRG Instructions state that the Fares Check must be performed using appropriate Single fares. Taking SDS fares route Any Permitted, we have
  • Durrington - Faygate £9.40
  • Ford - Faygate £9.40, so Ford Group is an appropriate RP
  • Brighton (or Hove) - Faygate £12.90, so Brighton Group is not an appropriate RP for this journey.
If Durrington - Faygate via Three Bridges were a Permitted Route, we would still be cautious about recommending it to jimmy030470 because many Three Bridges - Horsham trains pass through Faygate without stopping. On several occasions, we have debated on this forum whether it is permitted to change from using the outward leg to the return leg of a ticket while passing through the destination without stopping, but this issue is not defined in the rules.
As far as i can see there is no entitlement to travel via Hove (or Brighton) but this isn't something Southern would be seeking to enforce and as i said if you have any trouble please let us know.
Even if Southern are conternt, we could not recommend on this forum that a Goring by Sea - Horsham season ticket holder travel via Hove. They could be charged a Full Fare by FGW or receive a Penalty Fare from FCC.
Southern is trying to simplify all this so it will be easier for people to figure out what fare to buy without needing to be a specialist and any suggestions that might help would be very welcome
Thanks.
 

johnnycache

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Thanks for your corrections
Barnham is allowable as an interchange point due to easement 30141
(Barnham is not part of the Ford Routeing Group)

While learning about this there are a few things i have noticed that you might like to comment on

Easement 700036
Customers travelling from Warblington, Emsworth, Southbourne,
Nutbourne, Bosham, Fishbourne and Chichester to Pulborough and beyond,
may travel via Ford. This easement applies in both directions.

Seems completely pointless or am i missing something?

Easement 30005
Customer travelling to or from Gatwick Airport to the north may travel via
Earleswood. This easement applies in both directions

Spelling mistakes are as in the original!

Again does this need to be said?

Thanks
 

Deerfold

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Thanks for your corrections
Barnham is allowable as an interchange point due to easement 30141
(Barnham is not part of the Ford Routeing Group)

While learning about this there are a few things i have noticed that you might like to comment on

Easement 700036
Customers travelling from Warblington, Emsworth, Southbourne,
Nutbourne, Bosham, Fishbourne and Chichester to Pulborough and beyond,
may travel via Ford. This easement applies in both directions.

Seems completely pointless or am i missing something?

Easement 30005
Customer travelling to or from Gatwick Airport to the north may travel via
Earleswood. This easement applies in both directions

Spelling mistakes are as in the original!

Again does this need to be said?

Thanks
I'm not an expert on that part of the country but the easements are full of examples which do not seem to make sense, are misspelled or ar out of date.
 

HowMuch?

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It's great that Southern are working to simplify things, but a statement like "Southern would be content with people going via Brighton" isn't really helpful to someone choosing which ticket to buy.

Most people are apprehensive of trouble with gateline staff and train guards, and we're all famiiar with the phrase "Oh, yes? Who told you that, then". Worse, many people out there have had fraud prosecutions for small discrepancies between what they have paid and what a TOC lawyer can persuade a court the rules say "perfectly clearly" what should have been paid.

I'm sure JohnnyCache is on the side of the angels, but such concessions have to be published officially. Preferably in a change to Routeing Guide Maps, less preferably as an easement, and as a bare minimum on the company website. And preferably worded to cover all the bases (so there are no "well it doesn't explicitly say that this concession is valid before 10am so I'm not sure if it's allowed, so I'm going to charge you a penalty fare and you can argue it in court IF you can be bothered").
 

johnnycache

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thank you fair comment - i will try to do this

one thing that strikes me as strange about the routeing rules is that they depend very much on the fares being charged

this means that the permitted routes could vary from one fares setting round to the next - especially where fares are unregulated
 

yorkie

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one thing that strikes me as strange about the routeing rules is that they depend very much on the fares being charged

this means that the permitted routes could vary from one fares setting round to the next - especially where fares are unregulated
It is true that, if fares change, it can cause the results of the fares check rule to differ. However, in a thread a few weeks ago, regarding a Southport to Manchester (via Liverpool) journey, it became apparent that the fares check data relates to the fares at a certain point in time, rather than the current fares.

Page 34 of this specification document http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPS5002 sp0037_12.pdf appears to suggest that the data used to determine appropriate Routeing Points is given out to software developers on a CD and is not regularly updated. This is consistent with our experiences in the Southport to Manchester query.

It's more likely to be an issue when multiple TOCs are involved, and it's only applicable when the station concerned is not actually a Routeing Point itself.
 

johnnycache

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I understand from ATOC that the fares to be used in the fares check are from NFM64


This means that routeing entitlements are not affected by later fares changes
 

SickyNicky

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I understand from ATOC that the fares to be used in the fares check are from NFM64
This means that routeing entitlements are not affected by later fares changes
The problem is that the Routeing Guide does not state this. It merely refers to "the fare", which one can only interpret as the current fare. The "National Routeing Guide" is referred to within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and that forms basis of the contract used when purchasing a ticket.

I'm sure ATOC's intent was to tie permitted routes to NFM64, but as currently written, I'm not sure that it does.
 

OwlMan

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I understand from ATOC that the fares to be used in the fares check are from NFM64


This means that routeing entitlements are not affected by later fares changes
Which means that unless ATOC put a copy of NFM64 on their website no-one can use the National Routeing Guide as they can can not apply the fares rule.

Peter
 

bb21

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Let me guess how big the document will be as a pdf. :lol:
 
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