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Seat Reservations & Empty Seats

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Hadders

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Possibly so, though the planners should seek to avoid this. I think VT make it clearest by using their "half single" approach, though I really wish we'd go for off-peak singles being half the return more generally.

A quick check of VTWC's website for travel from Euston to Manchester this coming Friday:

Out from Euston 0940 Advance £70
Return from Manchester 1655 £70

How many people will pay these prices when an Off Peak Return is £81.60 (especially when they see adverts plastered all over the place telling them to book in Advance and save 43%).

There aren't isolated trains - many of the trains on Friday have this pricing structure.
 
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Bletchleyite

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A quick check of VTWC's website for travel from Euston to Manchester this coming Friday:

Out from Euston 0940 Advance £70
Return from Manchester 1655 £70

How many people will pay these prices when an Off Peak Return is £81.60 (especially when they see adverts plastered all over the place telling them to book in Advance and save 43%).

It doesn't say to "book an Advance" it says to book in advance :)

Those Advance fares are useful for those making a single journey. Because of the SVH I can't see why anyone would otherwise buy one, at least if using the VT site.
 

IanD

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A quick check of VTWC's website for travel from Euston to Manchester this coming Friday:

Out from Euston 0940 Advance £70
Return from Manchester 1655 £70

How many people will pay these prices when an Off Peak Return is £81.60 (especially when they see adverts plastered all over the place telling them to book in Advance and save 43%).

There aren't isolated trains - many of the trains on Friday have this pricing structure.

VTWC website is geared towards getting people to pay extra as it only shows single fares on the front page.

Use it to book an off-peak day return journey from Milton Keynes to London and it will suggest two singles at £14 each with a tiny link at the bottom to the returns which can be had for £15.50.
 
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Bletchleyite

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VTWC website is geared towards getting people to pay extra as it only shows single fares on the front page.

It isn't, or not deliberately. Never assume conspiracy, as they say - on VT's own flows the SVH will be shown avoiding this problem.

Use it to book an off-peak day return journey from Milton Keynes to London and it will suggest two singles at £14 each with a tiny link at the bottom to the returns which can be had for £15.50.

Better to buy that from LM as it's their flow.
 

sheff1

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VTWC website is geared towards getting people to pay extra as it only shows single fares on the front page.

It isn't, or not deliberately.

I tend to agree with Ian. Despite booking tickets online very frequently I struggled to find the returns on the VTWC site. I only perserved because I knew what I was looking for and have no doubt that some less frequent travellers would think only singles could be bought (the norm now on Airline sites .... and Virgin have always tried to treat their trains as if they were planes.)
 

Bletchleyite

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I tend to agree with Ian. Despite booking tickets online very frequently I struggled to find the returns on the VTWC site. I only perserved because I knew what I was looking for and have no doubt that some less frequent travellers would think only singles could be bought (the norm now on Airline sites .... and Virgin have always tried to treat their trains as if they were planes.)

But you don't, if buying a journey on VT (for which the site is primarily designed), need to think about returns, as the SVH solves that problem for you. Buy one with an Advance and you won't pay more than you would for an Off Peak Return. Buy two and you get an Off Peak Return. It seems a sensible way to hide the complication.

If VT wanted to rip people off in this way the SVH would not exist. It's a VT product and they are under no obligation to have it.
 

Hadders

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But you don't, if buying a journey on VT (for which the site is primarily designed), need to think about returns, as the SVH solves that problem for you. Buy one with an Advance and you won't pay more than you would for an Off Peak Return. Buy two and you get an Off Peak Return. It seems a sensible way to hide the complication.

If VT wanted to rip people off in this way the SVH would not exist. It's a VT product and they are under no obligation to have it.

In the example I gave above you would pay more if you bought an Advance in one direction and a SVH in the other.

The Advance was £70 and a SVH £40.60 which is more than the Off Peak Return of £81.60. If the Advance was at a peak time then fair enough but it wasn't, it was at a time when the Off Peak ticket is valid.

This shouldn't be allowed.
 

Bletchleyite

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But the SVH is only valid on a specified date. If you need to change the return date you have to cancel the ticket and rebook at additional cost.

No. If you buy a SVH in both directions and both halves are within a month of one another they actually issue an SVR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the example I gave above you would pay more if you bought an Advance in one direction and a SVH in the other.

Yes, but, using the VT site, why on earth would you do that? You'd pick the cheapest ticket for that leg which is the SVH if buying a return journey.

This shouldn't be allowed.

It's there for people buying a single journey and not interested in a return, e.g. getting a lift back, selling a car etc.
 
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IanD

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No. If you buy a SVH in both directions and both halves are within a month of one another they actually issue an SVR.

Er, yes. If you buy an avance in one direction and a SVH in the other then both are only valid for a specific date. SVH only available online and you have to buy at the same time as the other ticket. Eg you can't get an Advanc from MK to Manchester then rock up at Piccadilly ticket office 3 days later to buy a SVH home. If VT were really offering flexibility, they would allow that. (And they would sell SVHs over the counter - and they would make it clear that SVHs or any other non-advance tickets may be usable on services other than the one you picked during the purchasing process).
 

Bletchleyite

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Er, yes. If you buy an avance in one direction and a SVH in the other then both are only valid for a specific date.

Correct. And the problem with that is?

they would make it clear that SVHs or any other non-advance tickets may be usable on services other than the one you picked during the purchasing process).

People who want that will ask for a flexible ticket and pay the extra anyway. I don't do Advances, I always buy walk-ups. It's not hard to know the two sets of wording (Anytime and Off Peak) to find these. I don't mind the single display, as I *might* consider an Advance once in a while if dirt cheap (but not to save a fiver as some would), though I mainly just purchase at the TVM on the day anyway.

I do support a blanket change to single = return / 2 on all walk-up period tickets and all Anytime tickets (CDR would be harder to do that way, but I think people could cope with that given that most CDRs are just bought on the day from the station and people know that's what they want) but the VT solution is far better than nothing.
 
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IanD

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Correct. And the problem with that i

The original point made about SVHs was that they were Day tickets and incurred a £10 charge if you needed to change them but you siad that wasn't a problem because you're issued with a SVR if you buy two tickets. But that is not always the case. Try and keep up with your own arguments.

Really, we need a ticketing system that suits as many peopl as possible, not one that just suits you. Scoff at people who save a fiver on an Advance ticket if you want but a fiver is a lot of money to some people. Good for you that you have so much cash floating around that you can afford to just turn up and go - not everyone can and thankfully there are tickets suitable for people on a tight budget.
 

Bletchleyite

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The original point made about SVHs was that they were Day tickets and incurred a £10 charge if you needed to change them but you siad that wasn't a problem because you're issued with a SVR if you buy two tickets. But that is not always the case. Try and keep up with your own arguments.

It is always the case if you buy two SVH singles within a month of one another in the same transaction, which means it is irrelevant to look at the Return tab - pick your tickets and you'll get the relevant thing issued. In another situation it's exactly the same as if one of the singles was an SVS, just at a more reasonable price. I really don't see the problem. It's an easement, not a limitation.

Really, we need a ticketing system that suits as many peopl as possible, not one that just suits you. Scoff at people who save a fiver on an Advance ticket if you want but a fiver is a lot of money to some people. Good for you that you have so much cash floating around that you can afford to just turn up and go - not everyone can and thankfully there are tickets suitable for people on a tight budget.

The ticketing system does suit a wide range of people. You can buy a cheap Advance, I can walk up and pay a bit more for my flexibility if I want to. What's wrong there?
 
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Deerfold

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It isn't, or not deliberately. Never assume conspiracy, as they say - on VT's own flows the SVH will be shown avoiding this problem.

Better to buy that from LM as it's their flow.

I'm sure it is better to buy that from LM, but are customers supposed to know who prices each flow and book from the relevant provider, creating a new account for each?
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure it is better to buy that from LM, but are customers supposed to know who prices each flow and book from the relevant provider, creating a new account for each?

Fair point. I usually advise people to book with the TOC you intend to use, but in most cases that tends to be the flow owner as well.
 

Hadders

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Yes, but, using the VT site, why on earth would you do that? You'd pick the cheapest ticket for that leg which is the SVH if buying a return journey.


It's there for people buying a single journey and not interested in a return, e.g. getting a lift back, selling a car etc.

I agree that if booking a return you'd pick the cheapest leg.

But, the website shouldn't show more expensive Advance tickets that are inappropriate. If the expensively prices Advance tickets are really there for passengers wishing to make single journeys (and I get your point here) why are they showing as an option when I ask for a return?
 

anme

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I hope that answers the question for you. Don't run away with the idea that more higher fares mean more contribution to the railway's running. That's why the TOCs offer bargain fares for those who help fill empty seats, i.e. not during busy times.

I think you're reading rather a lot into my original point, which is that rail companies can end up in the unfortunate situation where someone who paid several times as much for their ticket (on a walk up/flexible ticket without a reservation) getting a worse level of service than someone who has a cheap advance. I was suggesting that this is not a good thing for the rail industry. For example, it may encourage the most profitable customers (someone paying 80 pounds *is* more profitable than someone paying 10 pounds!) to choose other forms of transport.

The problem is not unique to the rail industry - it also applies to e.g. airlines. Budget airlines tend not provide any additional benefits with higher fares. Other carriers often do - a full-fare economy ticket may get you extra airmiles, status points, lounge access, early seat selection, priority check in/boarding, etc (and of course allowing changes/refunds).
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree that if booking a return you'd pick the cheapest leg.

But, the website shouldn't show more expensive Advance tickets that are inappropriate. If the expensively prices Advance tickets are really there for passengers wishing to make single journeys (and I get your point here) why are they showing as an option when I ask for a return?

That is an entirely fair point.
 

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I've worked it out!

FirstGroup is using one of its more profitable rail franchises to bulk-book tickets on FGW as a business expenditure. This reduces the other franchise's profits, meaning a lower premium paid back to the treasury, diverting the cash back to FirstGroup via FGW.

It came to me in a flash, on the way back from my weekly paranoia lesson...
 

AM9

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I think you're reading rather a lot into my original point, which is that rail companies can end up in the unfortunate situation where someone who paid several times as much for their ticket (on a walk up/flexible ticket without a reservation) getting a worse level of service than someone who has a cheap advance. I was suggesting that this is not a good thing for the rail industry. For example, it may encourage the most profitable customers (someone paying 80 pounds *is* more profitable than someone paying 10 pounds!) to choose other forms of transport.

It may not 'look' a good thing for the rail industry but it is a function of providing capacity that by definition has to be finite.
Take a typical fare, say Didcot to Paddington. An anytime return ticket (SOR) costs £60, an off-peak return (SVR) costs £27.30 and a CDR, £24.80. If the passenger really has to travel before 09:30, they will need the SOR, but can trade that flexibility for a cheaper ticket. It's all about demand management and nothing to do with individual passengers' journeys. The last thing that the railway needs is more passengers in the peak flow. Infrastructure, rolling stock and staff are fully stretched at those times, so to encourage any more passengers would be a folly. Those who choose to/can travel in quieter times potentially get more room and pay less for it. That's the deal. Now passengers that buy SOR tickets and deliberately travel in off peak times seem to me to be a bit daft, - or have too much money. Sometimes they might do it if their plans are fluid and are prepared to pay for the flexibility, but they could turn up and pack into the already full trains so they have to pay a price that represents that ability.
The only type of traveller that bucks the demand management is the season ticket holder. At £122.50, a weekly season is just under 4 1/2 times the off-peak return fare. So with just the normal 5 working day journeys, the season ticket holder pays less than the heavily restricted off-peak traveller. The season ticket traveller is heavily subsidised for political reasons.

The problem is not unique to the rail industry - it also applies to e.g. airlines. Budget airlines tend not provide any additional benefits with higher fares. Other carriers often do - a full-fare economy ticket may get you extra airmiles, status points, lounge access, early seat selection, priority check in/boarding, etc (and of course allowing changes/refunds).

It's nothing like airlines. Airlines have no obligation to provide a certain level of capacity and passenger numbers are strictly limited the number of seats, i.e. unlike trains, there are no standees. Airlines do aggressive demand management to increase load factors. If you book late, you pay more. Sometimes, low fares reappear 2-3 weeks before travel.
The benefits offered are paid for: lounge access comes with higher class (= higher cost) tickets, priority check-in/boarding cost a few pounds more with low-cost airlines, with premium services, it comes with points status, but you need to spend a lot of money on fares to qualify. The whole loyalty thing with airlines is to capture the lucrative business traveller market, where fares aren't normally paid for by the passenger. So inducements offered are really low cost compared with the effective cost to whoever is paying the fares.
Refund rules for airline tickets are similar to rail as full-price flexible tickets (e.g. Y class) have better conditions of cancellation/rescheduling than the lowest costs ones (e.g. K,L,M,N etc.). The lower codes are differenct for each airline but Y is fairly standard for fully flexible. I suppose they have the variability of the lower price advance tickets, i.e. availability is changed regularly and no chance of a refund.
 

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I really don't see the problem. If a passenger clearly hasn't up for their reserved seat, go ahead and occupy it, as long as you're willing to move should they get on at a later station. It always puzzles me on ECML journeys out of Kings Cross, such as the one I'm on now, that some passengers will spend the journey sat on the floor when there are plenty of reserved seats that hbeen occupied.

Most people who post on here are seasoned travellers, or staff, who have got to know how things work on trains in reality. Many of those who sit on the floor believe that 'reserved' means 'reserved' and are unwilling to 'break the rules'. The fact that the relevant TOCs and their staff do almost nothing to correct this impression and resolve the problem is a real failure in customer service. No wonder some people give up on trains as soon as they can afford a car. There are plenty of potential reasons why they cannot reserve, and in most cases they will be paying more than the Advance passengers. Someone should get a grip!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've worked it out!

FirstGroup is using one of its more profitable rail franchises to bulk-book tickets on FGW as a business expenditure. This reduces the other franchise's profits, meaning a lower premium paid back to the treasury, diverting the cash back to FirstGroup via FGW.

It came to me in a flash, on the way back from my weekly paranoia lesson...

The only thing wrong with that theory is that the reservation tickets make people suspect a scam! Advice to TOCs: Just book a load of Anytime Returns and forget the reservations!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Concerning the Virgin West Coast singles. I got caught out a couple of years ago because the Virgin website showed those singles as the only way of getting tickets for a return journey to Manchester. The Offpeak Returns were hidden away on another page under 'slower journeys' so I never saw them. As it turned out I had to cancel the trip, and I never picked the tickets up from a TVM. I wanted to claim the cost of the tickets back. Firstly, despite no actual tickets being issued, I was not allowed to do this online and had to phone to claim, so pointlessly using up an agent's time. Second, I was charged £10 fee for each ticket. I then appealed to Passenger Focus, who took up my case and got Virgin to refund one £10 fee, and a promise to make Offpeak Returns more obvious. That's probably why I snort out loud when I hear of Virgin getting high passenger satisfaction scores.
 
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Tetchytyke

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But, the website shouldn't show more expensive Advance tickets that are inappropriate. If the expensively prices Advance tickets are really there for passengers wishing to make single journeys (and I get your point here) why are they showing as an option when I ask for a return?

It's mostly because TheSheepLine is an absolutely appalling website, and VTWC use the TheSheepLine for ticket sales.

Mixing Desk, used by VTEC among others, doesn't do that, and shows all the options in a much more clear way.
 

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It's mostly because TheSheepLine is an absolutely appalling website, and VTWC use the TheSheepLine for ticket sales.

It's more that it's a website that's about 12 years out of date, because it's barely changed since it came about. Mixing Deck is much newer. Though Mixing Deck is itself getting a bit old - the big screen display layout isn't suited well to tablets, for instance.
 

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Webtis is far superior to the sheepline websites but even Webtis shows Advance tickets that are more expensive than Off Peak tickets.

Let's hope Webtis don't look to roll out the fares view style layout, that was awful.
 

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Not everyone likes to play musical chairs at potentially every station down the line.

They wouldn't be. At Kings Cross you occupy a seat marked reserved to Leeds that hasn't been taken. OK, the owner of the reservation just might get on late at Peterborough, but it's pretty unlikely.
 

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It's mostly because TheSheepLine is an absolutely appalling website, and VTWC use the TheSheepLine for ticket sales.

Mixing Desk, used by VTEC among others, doesn't do that, and shows all the options in a much more clear way.

Barry Doe in the latest Rail (779) doesn't agree with you. He says 'I think the clearest are those used by Virgin (West Coast), Arriva Trains Wales and others'. Hilariously, he is contradicting a much earlier article in which he praised the 'new' East Coast website, which subsequently hasn't changed much after the VTEC takeover. He's obviously got a bad memory.

I will admit that I often check possible options on the SWT website (Trainline) before actually buying the tickets on FGW (MixingDeck) (for the Nectar Points!).
 

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Barry Doe is a strange individual, it has to be said. Both websites have their pluses- it's a bit easier to find the cheap advances on TheSheepLine, but the payoff for that is it hides the walk-up fares.

I use TPE for most purchases; 1% cash back on quidco as well as Nectar.
 
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