Selective Door Operation

[DerekC]

I am collecting data on Selective Door Operation on the UK main line network. I have read GE/GN8577 and am aware of:

Manual SDO -door selection controlled by the guard
ASDO - automatically selects the doors to be enabled by the driver or guard at a specific station
FASDO - opens (or selects) the correct doors automatically when the train has stopped in the right place
CSDE - correct side door enable (essential for FASDO)

What I would like to find out is what systems are in use and on which rolling stock. (FASDO is, as far as I am aware, only fitted to Class 700s for use in the Thameslink Core and is not yet commissioned).

I looked to see if there was a previous thread on this subject and couldn't find one. If I am wrong please tell me!

PS - I found one dated 2008/9 with some useful info, but the world has moved on since then!

 

[ComUtoR]

(FASDO is, as far as I am aware, only fitted to Class 700s for use in the Thameslink Core and is not yet commissioned).

FASDO is in operation.

 

[DerekC]

FASDO is in operation.

Ok - thanks. Didn't know that. So the doors open immediately the train has stopped unless inhibited by the driver?

 

[swt_passenger]

There was this thread a couple of months back:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142695&highlight=ASDO

You'll struggle to find a categoric list. The same features can sometimes have different names in different TOCs, such as the whole unit de-selection (UDS) or unit blocking depending on where you are operating your particular Desiro UK variant. (Overtaken by the fitting of ASDO to 450s and 444s of course.)

 

[DerekC]

There was this thread a couple of months back:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142695&highlight=ASDO

You'll struggle to find a categoric list. The same features can sometimes have different names in different TOCs, such as the whole unit de-selection (UDS) or unit blocking depending on where you are operating your particular Desiro UK variant. (Overtaken by the fitting of ASDO to 450s and 444s of course.)

Thanks - that thread is very helpful. Information on the systems fitted to the rolling stock with ASDO (I will copy in a list posted by swt_class_450) would be great. In particular, how does the train know where it is? (GPS, beacon, GPS+beacon etc). For example the Class 444s and 450s appear to have been fitted with Hima-Sella Tracklink III which uses a form of beacon. Just found this:

http://www.hima-sella.co.uk/rail-systems/tracklink-solutions/selective-door-openingcorrect-side-door-enabling

 

[DerekC]

Thanks to swt_class_450:

I can think of the following trains which have full SDO where you can choose any amount of coaches.
• 158 - South West Trains
• 159 - South West Trains
• 170 - London Midland
• 170 - South West Trains (i presume the 168/3 as they are now known as still have it)
• 171 - Southern
• 172 - Chiltern Railways
• 172 - London Midland
• 172 - London Overground
• 175 - Arriva Trains Wales
• 180 - Arriva Grand Central
• 180 - First Hull Trains
• 180 - Great Western Railway
• 222 - East Midlands Trains
• 357 - C2C
• 375 - Southeastern
• 376 - Southeastern
• 377 - Southeastern
• 377 - Southern
• 377 - Thameslink
• 378 - London Overground
• 379 - Abellio Greater Anglia
• 387 - C2C
• 387 - Gatwick Express
• 387 - Great Northern
• 387 - Great Western Railway
• 387 - Thameslink
• 444 - South West Trains
• 450 - South West Trains
• 458 - South West Trains
• 700 - Thameslink
• 707 - South West Trains
• 717 - Great Northern (i know they havent even been built yet but they are almost certainly going to have it)

 

[TEW]

Thanks - that thread is very helpful. Information on the systems fitted to the rolling stock with ASDO (I will copy in a list posted by swt_class_450) would be great. In particular, how does the train know where it is? (GPS, beacon, GPS+beacon etc).

SWT stock (444, 450, 458) read beacons in the track to determine how many doors to open.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's completely ridiculous that there are plural incompatible systems.

Every platform nationally should just have a pair of balises indicating the length, position, and side(s) of available platform.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks - that thread is very helpful. Information on the systems fitted to the rolling stock with ASDO (I will copy in a list posted by swt_class_450) would be great. In particular, how does the train know where it is? (GPS, beacon, GPS+beacon etc).

The SWT system uses beacons only, and is known as Tracklink 3. AIUI from previous discussions it is in use at all stations on all their EMU routes that 450/444/458 can call at, in other words it is used at 12 car or longer platforms, and is used on routes operated solely by 4 car trains where all platforms are longer than four cars.

IIRC the preceding Tracklink 2 is the one that uses GPS and beacons only at complex locations, e.g. where GPS cannot be used to differentiate between platforms.

Rail Engineer magazine did a good article describing the SWT system here:

http://www.railengineer.uk/2013/04/12/being-selective/

 

[DerekC]

It's completely ridiculous that there are plural incompatible systems.

Every platform nationally should just have a pair of balises indicating the length, position, and side(s) of available platform.

I agree, but it isn't like that - I am trying to find out how many different systems there are and how they work.

 

[DerekC]

The SWT system uses beacons only, and is known as Tracklink 3. AIUI from previous discussions it is in use at all stations on all their EMU routes that 450/444/458 can call at, in other words it is used at 12 car or longer platforms, and is used on routes operated solely by 4 car trains where all platforms are longer than four cars.

IIRC the preceding Tracklink 2 is the one that uses GPS and beacons only at complex locations, e.g. where GPS cannot be used to differentiate between platforms.

Rail Engineer magazine did a good article describing the SWT system here:

http://www.railengineer.uk/2013/04/12/being-selective/

Thanks - so Tracklink 3 has abandoned GPS?

 

[swt_passenger]

It's completely ridiculous that there are plural incompatible systems.

Every platform nationally should just have a pair of balises indicating the length, position, and side(s) of available platform.

Yes, the SWT 707s are a good case in point. They must be delivered with onboard equipment compatible with the Wessex route beacons. When they go somewhere else do you change the train or the beacons?

Hopefully as passive devices the actual track beacons can theoretically all be read by all/any train systems, but I was wondering if all beacons are physically fitted in the same place i.e. in the middle of the four foot, and are all on-train readers in the same place/height etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks - so Tracklink 3 has abandoned GPS?

That's exactly how I read it. It hasn't ever been contradicted in a couple of the earlier discussions about the specifics of the SWT fit. This (SDO and ASDO) has been a fairly regular discussion point in the past, there really are many threads all about it.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Hopefully as passive devices the actual track beacons can theoretically all be read by all/any train systems, but I was wondering if all beacons are physically fitted in the same place i.e. in the middle of the four foot, and are all on-train readers in the same place/height etc.

Even if technically it's possible (if they're physically compatible then technically it'll be very easy!), the manufacturers have no incentive to cooperate with each other

 

[pompeyfan]

To add to the system used by SWT, if no beacon is present or the reader is damaged the TMS will revert the door release to default, which is 3 coaches on 23m stock or 4 coaches on 20m stock. It's also worth mentioning that 458s have a receiver on each carriage, so in the event of a stop short, only doors that are accommodated should open.

SWT diesel use a form of UDS, where the guard can only block out whole units behind them.

 

[jopsuk]

It's completely ridiculous that there are plural incompatible systems.

Every platform nationally should just have a pair of balises indicating the length, position, and side(s) of available platform.

another standard! YES!

 

[Sprinter153]

GWR and Grand Central HSTs are also fitted with selective door opening throughout. CrossCountry HSTs have a similar system but they only have SDO-enabled central door locking panels fitted to a specific point on the set.

 

[DerekC]

Thanks for all the info. What would really help next is some more information on the systems fitted to the following:

17x (Southern, Chiltern, LM)
180
222
37x (South Eastern, Southern)
38x (GatEx, GN, GW)

I appreciate these may vary by TOC, but any pieces of the jigsaw help to make up the picture!

 

[aleggatta]

Thanks for all the info. What would really help next is some more information on the systems fitted to the following:

17x (Southern, Chiltern, LM)
180
222
37x (South Eastern, Southern)
38x (GatEx, GN, GW)

I appreciate these may vary by TOC, but any pieces of the jigsaw help to make up the picture!

171 SN: manual door deselect from Guards panel/cab. you must deselect from the last carriage of the train that will be platformed.
377 SN: Tracklink II system
387 GatEx/GN: I believe this is a tracklink II system fitted to work with the system already deployed on the network, however not sure if there was some hybrid system made for the purpose of being backwards compatible with the old and work with the new(Biggest difference to recievers is a large cowling around the top of it that either is there as another piece of metal to hit your head on or it's actually got a use! but its not fitted on the 377's.

 

[Juniper Driver]

SWT stock (444, 450, 458) read beacons in the track to determine how many doors to open.

458 system works different to 444/450 whereas 458 has a receiver on every coach whereas 444/450 has it on either 1/4 or 1/5 coach...in an 8 car it's 1/4/5/8 and in a 444 it's 1/5/6/10...at least that's what I've been told.

458 default mode only seems to be a problem when the unit has been cut out.As I had to do when ASDO first came in and I forgot about the system and wondered why it only opened four cars.Of course I haven't made that mistake again.

 

[swt_passenger]

458 system works different to 444/450 whereas 458 has a receiver on every coach whereas 444/450 has it on either 1/4 or 1/5 coach...in an 8 car it's 1/4/5/8 and in a 444 it's 1/5/6/10...at least that's what I've been told.

The difference in operation between the 458/5 and the Desiros is quite well explained (with reasons) in the rail engineer article I linked to in the earlier post #9

Regarding the above points about standards, right at the end of the article they suggest that:
The Tracklink III specification is likely to become a de facto standard for SDO

 

[DerekC]

I just found new standard RIS-2747-RST (available from the RSSB website) which contains chapter and verse on systems fitted to current rolling stock.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Don't forget slam door trains. You select a door, then open it!

 

[GW43125]

Don't forget slam door trains. You select a door, then open it!

I had a 12 minute delay today as someone pulled an egress because they were in the 5th carriage at an SDO4 platform... wouldn't have happened with slammers

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Can the 444s/450s easily have receivers added to the coaches that don't have them?

 

[pompeyfan]

Can the 444s/450s easily have receivers added to the coaches that don't have them?

Something to do with the TMS software didn't like having a receiver on each coach, I'm sure with enough time and money thrown at it you could fix it.

 

[BestWestern]

I had a 12 minute delay today as someone pulled an egress because they were in the 5th carriage at an SDO4 platform... wouldn't have happened with slammers

#tw@t :roll:

 

[GW43125]

#tw@t :roll:

Words to that effect were muttered loudly within the carriage.

 

[swt_passenger]

Something to do with the TMS software didn't like having a receiver on each coach, I'm sure with enough time and money thrown at it you could fix it.

The Rail Engineer article describes it the other way around, saying that it is the 458/5 that had to have a reader on each coach because the existing TMS couldn't cope with only having readers at the ends of the train.

That suggests to me that the problem isn't with the Desiros?

 

[pompeyfan]

The Rail Engineer article describes it the other way around, saying that it is the 458/5 that had to have a reader on each coach because the existing TMS couldn't cope with only having readers at the ends of the train.

That suggests to me that the problem isn't with the Desiros?

Ah, I'll bow to your superior knowledge, I was going by what I'd been told, or what I could remember being told at least. It begs the question then why isn't there a reader on each coach, it would have the ability to prevent a door release on unaccomodated coaches on a stop short.