Sensible proposals for restarting the electrification programme

[HSTEd]

Different voltage of electricity though, 6600V, 25 Hz vs 25000V, 50Hz so what might have been acceptable for the lower voltage in use might not be okay to use for a voltage 4 times as powerful.

Wood poles are used in other parts of the world in 50kV systems.

Image is from the Black Mesa and Lake Powell Railroad.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wood poles are used in other parts of the world in 50kV systems.

Image is from the Black Mesa and Lake Powell Railroad.

Yes but that is in the middle of nowhere, on a freight only line, that is not connected to any other line. (Although I’m not sure what my point is. Ignore me).

 

[randyrippley]

I bet it wasn't intentionally designed as a "lightweight" system though.

Irrelevant - by modern standards it was lightweight, and it survived decades of storms and gales

 

[randyrippley]

Different voltage of electricity though, 6600V, 25 Hz vs 25000V, 50Hz so what might have been acceptable for the lower voltage in use might not be okay to use for a voltage 4 times as powerful.

But no-one is proposing we use the same equipment, technology moves on. The point is that weatherproof lightweight equipment was possible 110 years ago. It must be possible to come up with cheap lightweight gear now, despite the voltage difference

==edit==
thinking about it, with 25kV AC carrying a LOWER current than that of the Morecambe electrification, then there would be no need for heavier cabling.

 

[ABB125]

Wood poles are used in other parts of the world in 50kV systems.

Image is from the Black Mesa and Lake Powell Railroad.

Presumably the wooden pole acts as an insulator? Would the same apply to concrete? Is this sort of electrification done by simply screwing a metal right angle triangle to the pole, with the wire hung from the tip, with no insulators between the wire and pole? Admittedly I may be simplifying it a bit.
Would this sort of thing be ideal for the UK, or would it fail the "nothing innovative or new" test? How resilient are the wooden/concrete pole compared with metal?
On a separate note, which is better for the environment, wood, concrete or steel? Are there any other new materials that could be used but haven't been considered before?

 

[HSTEd]

Presumably the wooden pole acts as an insulator?

If you've got substantial voltage across your wooden pole then you have serious problems.
Thats what the actual insulators are for.

Would the same apply to concrete? Is this sort of electrification done by simply screwing a metal right angle triangle to the pole, with the wire hung from the tip, with no insulators between the wire and pole? Admittedly I may be simplifying it a bit.

No, that would likely go extremely badly for you when current starts passing through the pole (which is not perfectly dry) and cause it to cook and probably explode as the water in it boils.

Would this sort of thing be ideal for the UK, or would it fail the "nothing innovative or new" test? How resilient are the wooden/concrete pole compared with metal?

Wooden and concrete poles are used all the time in utility service in the UK and abroad.

On a separate note, which is better for the environment, wood, concrete or steel? Are there any other new materials that could be used but haven't been considered before?

That depends on how you measure it unfortunately, the carbon emissions of electrification equipment are so small that on a carbon emissions basis even the Far North would be worth electrifying if it got rid of diesel operation.

 

[ABB125]

If you've got substantial voltage across your wooden pole then you have serious problems.
Thats what the actual insulators are for.


No, that would likely go extremely badly for you when current starts passing through the pole (which is not perfectly dry) and cause it to cook and probably explode as the water in it boils.

Wooden and concrete poles are used all the time in utility service in the UK and abroad.

That depends on how you measure it unfortunately, the carbon emissions of electrification equipment are so small that on a carbon emissions basis even the Far North would be worth electrifying if it got rid of diesel operation.

Thanks. In other words, give it a go somewhere?

 

[HSTEd]

Thanks. In other words, give it a go somewhere?

I would like them to try, but I don't think they will any time soon.

The problem with experiments like this is they may not go well.
And more bad headlines about the railway failing to deliver a project (even a testbed) on time and budget are something the management and their political masters will desire to avoid.

 

[ABB125]

I would like them to try, but I don't think they will any time soon.

The problem with experiments like this is they may not go well.
And more bad headlines about the railway failing to deliver a project (even a testbed) on time and budget are something the management and their political masters will desire to avoid.

I suppose so. Perhaps there should be a trial on a heritage railway to prove the concept, following which the wires would be removed.

 

[randyrippley]

I suppose so. Perhaps there should be a trial on a heritage railway to prove the concept, following which the wires would be removed.

Heritage railways don't have EMUs.
Morecambe is the ideal test line. Short, frequent service. If you cut the Leeds service back to Lancaster then the Morecambe line would become a virtually self-contained shuttle. A perfect test bed.

 

[Greybeard33]

Realistically, what percentage of the total construction cost of an electrification project might be saved, if wooden poles were used instead of conventional metal structures?

 

[Bald Rick]

Realistically, what percentage of the total construction cost of an electrification project might be saved, if wooden poles were used instead of conventional metal structures?

We’ll be into fractions of one percent.

 

[randyrippley]

Realistically, what percentage of the total construction cost of an electrification project might be saved, if wooden poles were used instead of conventional metal structures?

Don't get hung up over the poles: the idea is to trial a lightweight low cost system.
These lines won't be hauling freight, or have 100mph running.
Lighter poles, lighter cables, lesser power supply - a complete reduced specification package

 

[apk55]

Poles probably cost more to put up than they cost. The cost of digging or pilling foundations is not cheap together with access required. Often done at night or weekend with premium staff costs and a specialist train or equipment, it makes sense to use good long life materials.

 

[Greybeard33]

Don't get hung up over the poles: the idea is to trial a lightweight low cost system.
These lines won't be hauling freight, or have 100mph running.
Lighter poles, lighter cables, lesser power supply - a complete reduced specification package

Well, on short branches like Windermere, Morecambe and Fleetwood the power will just be end fed from the main line. I would have thought savings from lighter cables would be negligible. 25kV insulators are needed regardless and it is probably cheaper to stick with standard parts for cantilevers, registration arms etc....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well, on short branches like Windermere, Morecambe and Fleetwood the power will just be end fed from the main line. I would have thought savings from lighter cables would be negligible. 25kV insulators are needed regardless and it is probably cheaper to stick with standard parts for cantilevers, registration arms etc....

Morecambe has three overbridges - at Broadway, Lancaster Road, and West End Road. All three are pretty important roads and threfore large-ish bridges. Would they need to be raised to allow electrification? I'm guessing that (someone correct me if I'm mistaken) that, if electrification was a minimum-possible-job - in other words, just electrifying the single track that terminates at Morecambe - then any bridge reconstruction would dominate the costs of the project?

 

[HSTEd]

25kV insulators are needed regardless and it is probably cheaper to stick with standard parts for cantilevers, registration arms etc....

Well that depends whether you want to use more steel than China does in a year.

The entire parts range is pretty much junk at this point.
Every significant installation done with the new equipment has run hugely over budget and was/is behind schedule.

Things like twin Track cantilevers will require huge, expensive to install foundations to resist the overturning moment.

You can design an electrification system that has much smaller foundation requirements, to the point of probably being able to dispense with piled or concrete foundations entirely.

I am very interested in "rigid headspans" like those used in parts of Japan and on tram systems.
Imagine a headspan where the bottom span wire is actually a metal tube.

Also cantilevering weights on the back of the pole to conver (some) overturning moment to additional weight.

EDIT:
Ironically the simplest system to install could easily be wood poles supporting a lightweight top-member with cantilever weights outboard.
So the poles can be simply buried without concreting.

But overall..... if you can't get below £1m per single track kilometer, give up, we are done and the railway is likely doomed.

 

[randyrippley]

Morecambe has three overbridges - at Broadway, Lancaster Road, and West End Road. All three are pretty important roads and threfore large-ish bridges. Would they need to be raised to allow electrification? I'm guessing that (someone correct me if I'm mistaken) that, if electrification was a minimum-possible-job - in other words, just electrifying the single track that terminates at Morecambe - then any bridge reconstruction would dominate the costs of the project?

West End Rd bridge was part of the original electrification so you might away with it.
Broadway and Lancaster Rd (AKA York Bridge) are on a straight bit of track which could be easily lowered though the bridges might need underpinning - but that's a lot cheaper than rebuilding them

 

[yorksrob]

Does anyone know what's become of that machine NR demonstrated a while ago, that can raise arched bridges ?

Is it in use now ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't get hung up over the poles: the idea is to trial a lightweight low cost system.
These lines won't be hauling freight, or have 100mph running.
Lighter poles, lighter cables, lesser power supply - a complete reduced specification package

You won’t have lighter cables, and as others have said the power supply would already be there.

By far the best way to reduce cost is to close the line for reasonably long periods to build it quickly - th8s can save 20-40%, and one reason why Shotts was much cheaper than most other jobs.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know what's become of that machine NR demonstrated a while ago, that can raise arched bridges ?

Is it in use now ?

It wasn’t really a machine, just a process (named “Elevarch”) using a fairly normal set of hydraulic jacks with multiple control. The contractors Freysinnett demonstrated it to Network Rail, on an EWR farm accommodation bridge over out of use track:
https://freyssinet.co.uk/masonry-arch-lifting-elevarch/
The new technique aspect was to adequately reinforce the arch so that it effectively became a one piece structure.

I’d have thought if it had been used again on a brick arch on the live railway there’d have been far more up to date publicity. Obviously jacking of ordinary girder bridges is a fairly standard procedure.

 

[yorksrob]

It wasn’t really a machine, just a process (named “Elevarch”) using a fairly normal set of hydraulic jacks with multiple control. The contractors Freysinnett demonstrated it to Network Rail, on an EWR farm accommodation bridge over out of use track:
https://freyssinet.co.uk/masonry-arch-lifting-elevarch/
The new technique aspect was to adequately reinforce the arch so that it effectively became a one piece structure.

I’d have thought if it had been used again on a brick arch on the live railway there’d have been far more up to date publicity. Obviously jacking of ordinary girder bridges is a fairly standard procedure.

I hope it does prove successful, particularly if electrification is to be affordable.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think that if East West rail was rescoped to include electrification it would not be too disruptive. Electrify at the time of build. has to be lower cost. Start off as we mean to go on.

 

[gingertom]

I think that if East West rail was rescoped to include electrification it would not be too disruptive. Electrify at the time of build. has to be lower cost. Start off as we mean to go on.

Ab so lute ly. No blockades, no bustitution, no night shift working, no compensation to TOCs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ab so lute ly. No blockades, no bustitution, no night shift working, no compensation to TOCs.

Point of order - ‘blockades’ (by which I mean extended possessions enabling longer continuous work activity) is one of the key methods of making almost any major engineering work cheaper. If the work was done before the line opened it would definitely be in a ‘blockade’.

 

[Tobbes]

Point of order - ‘blockades’ (by which I mean extended possessions enabling longer continuous work activity) is one of the key methods of making almost any major engineering work cheaper. If the work was done before the line opened it would definitely be in a ‘blockade’.

Very sensible - so when would you need to make the decision to electrify EWR to get it done most cost effectively?

 

[Sceptre]

I think that if East West rail was rescoped to include electrification it would not be too disruptive. Electrify at the time of build. has to be lower cost. Start off as we mean to go on.

The current government has a rather dim view of long-term thinking, though; having stub tunnels at OOC for HS2 to link to HS1 if it was ever needed was a rounding error in the budget but was ditched pretty early on.

 

[AndrewE]

I think that if East West rail was rescoped to include electrification it would not be too disruptive. Electrify at the time of build. has to be lower cost. Start off as we mean to go on.

I don't think it had occurred to me that it wouldn't be electrified! A new line linking 3 or 4 electrified main lines - and not make it electric from the start? Mad!
I know it might have been planned so long ago that no-one imagined it ever succeeding, and that mission creep/upgrading things once you have got started almost guarantees financial and other problems, but given the commitment to de-carbonise the economy you do wonder at the mentality of the people "in charge!"
The cynic in me would say it is yet another example of deep-seated determination to ensure that the railways cannot play the part that they should be in meeting our transport needs. Abroad we see a determination to make the railways as useful as possible in quite a lot of countries, here we get a few token local tweaks and the occasional vanity project.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it had occurred to me that it wouldn't be electrified! A new line linking 3 or 4 electrified main lines - and not make it electric from the start? Mad!
I know it might have been planned so long ago that no-one imagined it ever succeeding, and that mission creep/upgrading things once you have got started almost guarantees financial and other problems, but given the commitment to de-carbonise the economy you do wonder at the mentality of the people "in charge!"
The cynic in me would say it is yet another example of deep-seated determination to ensure that the railways cannot play the part that they should be in meeting our transport needs. Abroad we see a determination to make the railways as useful as possible in quite a lot of countries, here we get a few token local tweaks and the occasional vanity project.

It was planned with electrification, but descoped. I suspect it will be back in before long.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very sensible - so when would you need to make the decision to electrify EWR to get it done most cost effectively?

That depends how much design has been done for electrification. I suspect not much. In which case a decision will be needed pdq, as main construction will be starting soon, and designs will need to be integrated. I suspect a major issue will be any bridges that need rebuilding for electrification - I don’t know whether these are in or out if scope currently.