Serco Caledonian Sleeper contract will NOT be extended

[Davester50]

Quite obviously because the majority of the custom is going to London and back, and the practical choice, if one needs to be there in the morning, is a flight or day train down the previous day and a hotel, or the Sleeper.

Is the majority going from South to North and return, or North to South and return?
Would make interesting reading to compare the origin and destination figures.

 

[Deltic1961]

According to an FOI someone posted on Twitter, the sleeper is to be remerged with ScotRail to ensure its longterm financial viability.

Dear oh dear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the majority going from South to North and return, or North to South and return?
Would make interesting reading to compare the origin and destination figures.

I would be astonished if it wasn't a majority of Scots going to/from London, though there will be plenty of traffic the other way too, so possibly a small majority. I'd expect it to vary by day, but be similar to the likes of Avanti West Coast.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Quite obviously because the majority of the custom is going to London and back, and the practical choice, if one needs to be there in the morning, is a flight or day train down the previous day and a hotel, or the Sleeper.

Sure, you could do something like day train to Milton Keynes or Stevenage/flight to Luton, stay there and then head into London, but few will consider that.

But 50% will be the opposite direction. Staying in the far reaches of Britain after a day train/flight from London. Plus, if as I suspect, it is mainly tourists then there is no meeting to be attended early in the morning at either end.

ALSO I really think this could be a first indication of the austere times ahead for the railways. The country is short of cash and why should we pay for loss making services that have less and less passengers. That is the excuse I think we will hear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dear oh dear.

Why? Separating it out never really made any sense. There's a huge amount of duplication of staffing that simply isn't necessary and never was.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Upwards of £200 a night is more than mid-range. Several Doubletrees in London tonight for less than £150.

Not in *actual* central London, as opposed to Heathrow, Dartford, or Croydon there isn't. And it's been a while since I've seen sub-£175 in Central London in any of the mid-range chains like Crowne Plaza.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But 50% will be the opposite direction.

I would be very surprised if it was anything like 50-50. I'd expect more like 70-30 or something like that, though the figures are no doubt commercial-in-confidence. Might be possible to FoI it once it goes back into ScotRail. I suppose someone could FoI LNER to find out for the ECML - I'd expect it to be similar to that and the WCML.

Obviously almost everyone who goes comes back (though possibly on a day train or flight), but I suspect, if you weed out the tourists who have no specific base, then you'd be left with more Scots using it than Londoners, though probably not a huge amount more.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And why compare with London priced hotels ?

Because passengers from Scotland travelling to London would otherwise require a night in London, and tourists to Scotland would otherwise have a night in London then travel up the following day.

Even budget hotels in London are generally £100+ these days. I know, I've looked for travel from here, and its why I normally stay in Croydon.

It's also attractive to tourists because you don't lose time travelling, air takes half a day by the time you've got to Gatwick/Heathrow/Luton and rail takes a full day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even budget hotels in London are generally £100+ these days. I know, I've looked for travel from here, and its why I normally stay in Croydon.

Milton Keynes is a very good bet - there are no fewer than three two (one seems to have closed despite still having the sign up) Premier Inns within walking distance of MKC station (and another three away from it, but those wouldn't be great for this purpose, though may sometimes be cheaper so one of those plus taxis may make sense), plus others including Travelodge and more premium options, and it's about half an hour into Euston.

I don't however think most people would think to do that, particularly once the Glasgow expresses return to not stopping at MKC.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The aim of all parties is to get passenger numbers on the railways up. It is even more imperative now that the primary shareholder in this is the Scottish Government.

...at an acceptable cost to the taxpayer, not at a greater cost to the taxpayer.

And that seems to be the nasty hole we are in.

I can hear the voices "costs are out of control". When a business/home loses money you have to find a way of making ends meet. Sure I know there is a social element to this BUT the costs are running wild with falling numbers of people benefiting.

 

[popeter45]

If this is a change in direction away from "hotel on wheels" and back to actual traveler based services I wonder what changes can be made

The new nightjet mini cabins definitely offer potential for a service like the sleeper, bargin basement price when all you need is a bed for the night

 

[Peter Sarf]

Because passengers from Scotland travelling to London would otherwise require a night in London, and tourists to Scotland would otherwise have a night in London then travel up the following day.

Even budget hotels in London are generally £100+ these days. I know, I've looked for travel from here, and its why I normally stay in Croydon.

It's also attractive to tourists because you don't lose time travelling, air takes half a day by the time you've got to Gatwick/Heathrow/Luton and rail takes a full day.

I do not see why a sleeper passenger would automatically change to a night in London. Surely the opposite end of the journey is just as likely ?.

A lot of the tourists will probably be staying a few nights at each end of their journey anyway.

I agree about the attractiveness of sleeping on the move - but not at CS prices.

 

[Davester50]

Not in *actual* central London, as opposed to Heathrow, Dartford, or Croydon there isn't. And it's been a while since I've seen sub-£175 in Central London in any of the mid-range chains like Crowne Plaza.

Docklands and Grenwich. And with CrossRail, even easier to access.
I only looked at tonight and at Hilton. If you're looking much further out Kings Cross £186 in February.
Same night in the CP Albert Embankment from 179.

This summer's prices have been high. Very high. But there's plenty 3+ Star places for less then the amount you quoted.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't however think most people would think to do that, particularly once the Glasgow expresses return to not stopping at MKC.

The cost of actually travelling into London puts me off Milton Keynes, also I know from bitter past experience the Friday and Saturday evening vomit comets are hideous.

But back on point, the Sleeper is never going to be the budget option, although the seats are decent value. I've not used the new Sleeper but the old one where you shared cabins with strangers simply wasn't acceptable in a modern world. I don't think the fares quoted seem particularly unreasonable for a night's travel and lodgings, but it's fair to say that I'm lucky I that I don't have to count every penny. I'm not sure I'd be paying £350 for a standard cabin but in high summer clearly plenty of people are doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cost of actually travelling into London puts me off Milton Keynes

It's not that expensive. Typical South East prices. If doing it often it's cheaper to get a Network Railcard and do singles each way.

also I know from bitter past experience the Friday and Saturday evening vomit comets are hideous.

They are yes, but I doubt many business travellers (who we're talking about here) would be taking a train north between about 2130 and midnight (the Saturday 0010 is normally deathly quiet, everyone falls asleep) on a Friday or a Saturday. During the week they're just shift workers and the likes, they're not "vomit comets", and I've used them a few times. Including vomiting in one (in the toilet to be fair)...

 

[Peter Sarf]

The cost of actually travelling into London puts me off Milton Keynes, also I know from bitter past experience the Friday and Saturday evening vomit comets are hideous.

But back on point, the Sleeper is never going to be the budget option, although the seats are decent value. I've not used the new Sleeper but the old one where you shared cabins with strangers simply wasn't acceptable in a modern world. I don't think the fares quoted seem particularly unreasonable for a night's travel and lodgings, but it's fair to say that I'm lucky I that I don't have to count every penny. I'm not sure I'd be paying £350 for a standard cabin but in high summer clearly plenty of people are doing.

But how many of those passengers bring a benefit to the country that justifies the subsidy ?.

I think it either needs to be higher prices and quality assured (assuming it brings in extra tourist revenue for Scotland). Alternative is budget so it benefits some of our fellow taxpayers.

EDIT - I think Scotland through Scotrail have an incentive to use Caledonian Sleeper to generate tourist income. I think there must be huge benefits operationally from it being under Scotrails wing. I could be clutching at straws.

 

[ScotsRail]

Cracking opportunity to get the Aberdeen portion started from Fraserburgh/Peterhead when they re-open.

Just waiting on someone mentioning starting the Inverness portion from Wick

Currently the sleeper may be a viable option to get to your destination at a reasonable time of day but cost wise it just isn't worth it. I've gone from being a regular user in the 2000s and early 2010s to not using it all now - other rail fares and flights work out better.

 

[Wynd]

...at an acceptable cost to the taxpayer, not at a greater cost to the taxpayer.

The first call is to ensure all seats are sold. Empty seats = lost revenue.

Then we can work on getting more seats, which will produce more revenue.

Controlling cost is the first task of any business, right after making sales.

Lets make sure the cart and the horse are in the correct order, yes?

 

[zwk500]

I think it either needs to be higher prices and quality assured (assuming it brings in extra tourist revenue for Scotland). Alternative is budget so it benefits some of our fellow taxpayers.

Tbh if running it as a luxury option doesn't make ends meet then the best thing for the taxpayer is to bin it outright.

 

[ScotsRail]

Because passengers from Scotland travelling to London would otherwise require a night in London, and tourists to Scotland would otherwise have a night in London then travel up the following day.

Even budget hotels in London are generally £100+ these days. I know, I've looked for travel from here, and its why I normally stay in Croydon.

It's also attractive to tourists because you don't lose time travelling, air takes half a day by the time you've got to Gatwick/Heathrow/Luton and rail takes a full day.

4 nights at the end of this month in London for around £40 a night (including a Saturday) - you really need to look more widely if you are paying £100+

 

[zwk500]

Controlling cost is the first task of any business, right after making sales.

Making profit is the first task of any business. Making additional sales and controlling costs are equal parts of that discussion. Businesses that control costs but don't make profit still go under.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Tbh if running it as a luxury option doesn't make ends meet then the best thing for the taxpayer is to bin it outright.

That is what I think will happen. CS has kind of priced itself out of the budget market and now has costs that prevent it going back there. Depends what Scotrail can achieve or are mandated to achieve.

 

[Wynd]

Making profit is the first task of any business. Making additional sales and controlling costs are equal parts of that discussion. Businesses that control costs but don't make profit still go under.

We are discussing publicly owned businesses. Many of us would be satisfied if they broke even. Making a profit is a whole different topic when it comes to UK rail franchises.

 

[cactustwirly]

Does the Night Riviera make any money?
What does it do differently to CS?

 

[Wynd]

Tbh if running it as a luxury option doesn't make ends meet then the best thing for the taxpayer is to bin it outright.

Eh, no, I don't think we will do that. Its a valuable service that delivers significant benefits to those who use it.

That is what I think will happen. CS has kind of priced itself out of the budget market and now has costs that prevent it going back there. Depends what Scotrail can achieve or are mandated to achieve.

There is little to nothing to suggest the SG are going to cease it. If CS is as you say, why are the bookings so healthy that its very difficult to get a ticket that is not the standard seat?

 

[zwk500]

That is what I think will happen.

I doubt it - it's popular with cross-border MPs, and it's got a certain amount of romanticisim associated with it.

I can see a few changes being made to streamline it though. One possibility is to bin off the Highlander completely and just focus on the Edinburgh/Glasgow train. There could also be other options, like switching to a West Coast and East Coast train. West train would run into Glasgow Central, then take a portion onto Fort William. East train would run to Edinburgh, dropping a portion there with a portion continuing to Inverness with a call (no coaches dropped) at Aberdeen.

Eh, no, I don't think we will do that. Its a valuable service that delivers significant benefits to those who use it.

I didn't say it provided no benefit, nor that I thought it would be stopped. Having said that, if the significant benefits are only for a very small number of people and are costing everybody else a very significant amount of money, I don't think it's unreasonable to at least raise the option. Alternatives such as subsidising early morning flights or running earlier first trains exist.

 

[zwk500]

We are discussing publicly owned businesses. Many of us would be satisfied if they broke even. Making a profit is a whole different topic when it comes to UK rail franchises.

Yes, because no UK franchise TOC has ever gone under. A publicly owned business can reckon it's 'profit' in the wider economic benefits, but it still has to demonstrate its value to continue receiving the subsidy.

 

[pdeaves]

Was this at a break clause, or some random date? Did CS throw in the towel, or did the Scottish Ministers terminate the contract?

Who will provide the motive power? Will the dedicated locos transfer across?

It will be the end of this round of 'Temporary Measures' (Covid recovery support). So the parties will carry on until then and not have a contract renewal at the end of it.

At least in the short term, motive power arrangements will be unchanged, I would have thought.

 

[williamn]

I used it a lot during 2021, mostly to Glasgow. Plenty of business people used it. Remember the Flexipass is priced at the equivalent of £180 and has a lot of flexibility, and that's a price point and product which is pretty appealing to business people.

 

[Wynd]

Yes, because no UK franchise TOC has ever gone under. A publicly owned business can reckon it's 'profit' in the wider economic benefits, but it still has to demonstrate its value to continue receiving the subsidy.

Dont get flippant with me, I'm well aware of the history of UK franchises.

Did I say it doesn't have to demonstrate value? No, I did not. In fact, what I did say way this service is of great value to those who use it and it delivers considerable economic benefit.

Which is evidently recognized by the SG who have decided to end the contract on the grounds of value.