Serco for Sleeper

[NotATrainspott]

A four class system seems a little over the top. Most important thing for me is what is the future of the lounge car?

Oh and will the existing MkIII sleeper stock find a new use elsewhere?

If the Night Riviera could be extended they could end up there temporarily. However, if the Riviera is going to survive it will need new stock as well and the only opportunity they'll have to purchase it will be with this CAF order. Increasing the size of the order, especially when these carriages will be entirely bespoke on both the UK network and from CAF, should help reduce the per-carriage construction and maintenance cost. Likewise if the XC sleeper could ever come back the window will only be open for these few years.

 

[sprinterguy]

Most important thing for me is what is the future of the lounge car?

As stated in the Serco press release:

http://www.serco.com/media/pressreleases/SercoselectedfornewCaledonianSleeperrailfranchise.asp
Significant improvements include...a brasserie-style Club Car.

The following will also have an impact on the lounge car offering:

Serco also plans to promote and support Scottish enterprise by sourcing local products and produce from small and medium-sized businesses.

Oh and will the existing MkIII sleeper stock find a new use elsewhere?

It's hardly likely. Reportedly, the different formation of the structural members of the mark 3 sleeper bodyshell makes it very difficult to convert them to day vehicles, and with only one other overnight sleeper in service in the UK, and a seemingly contracting sleeper network in mainland Europe, there doesn't seem to be much call for retaining them in their current form.

Note also that hundreds of HST mark 3 vehicles will be released from service during the same time period by the IEP.

Most likely they'll be broken up for spares to provide common components to keep other mark 3 carriages (The small number that are likely to remain) in service. While the sleeper vehicles are some of the youngest members of the mark 3 fleet, I still don't understand why some envisage a need for thirty-odd year old carriages (As the mark 3 sleepers will be in 2018) to eke out a further living.

 

[Pugwash]

The Transport Scotland news release seems to imply there will be 4 products available:

Business Class cabins - with ensuite shower and toilet
Standard Class cabins - similar to now so presumably a sink but no toilet.
Pod Seats - innovative pod seats that can transform into flatbeds
Cradle Seats - modern comfortable cradle seats

Cradle seats seems to be another airline term for something not quite as posh as a flat bed pod. I wonder if the Northlink seats shown on page 4 of this thread are the proposed "cradle seat" rather than the full pod seat as from what Northlink say on their website these do not provide a full lie flat experience.

I would much rather have a dorm bed ( 6 to a room couchette style ) rather than a pod. they seem such a waste of vertical space.
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Who is building the new trains? (Swear I read someone say that they knew!)


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The fleet, to be built by leading rolling stock manufacturer CAF,

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oh and will the existing MkIII sleeper stock find a new use elsewhere?

Other than baked beans cans? Highly unlikely. GNER couldn't make a business case for MKIII sleeper conversions when they were desperate for stock, and with the HSTs being replaced in 2018 there'll be no market for them at all.

 

[higthomas]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/busin...-london-caledonian-sleeper-service.1401270028

I notice the new RMT guy has taken up exactly where Bob left off, although I'm not a fan of Serco, so am hoping they do treat this differently to certain other government contracts.

 

[oldman]

According to the Scotsman:

Serco will receive up to £800m in revenues over the 15-year franchise period, of which about £180m will be in the form of franchise payments.

Plus £60 million capital grant.

I can not see the appeal of this as a tourist product. Breakfast or supper crossing Rannoch Moor would be nice (summer only), but otherwise it's just an overnight journey in the dark with tartan frills. If I want a luxury Scottish hotel experience, I'll stay in a luxury Scottish hotel. Comparisons with the Rockies or Australia are nonsense.

For the proles the new pods may be an improvement, but it's still just a journey to be endured rather than enjoyed.

 

[Altnabreac]

My guess would be that to keep construction costs down and increase passenger capacity there will be a reduction in the number of berth cars and an increase in the number of seated cars with pods/cradles.

At the moment I believe the format is something like:

• Glasgow 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Edinburgh 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Inverness 4-6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Aberdeen 4-5 sleeepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Fort William - London 2 sleepers
• Fort William - Edinburgh 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van

Giving a total carriage nightly usage of 66 vehicles with 9 spares for a total fleet size of 75 (53 sleepers + 11 seated/brake + 11 lounge cars).

With the new pods/cradles I'd expect the Seated Sleeper to Fort William to run directly in future. For operational simplicity you might well decide to sacrifice Aberdeen - Inverness capacity/flexibility and just run a four coach rake all the way from Fort William to London both ways each night.

This is particularly likely as the tender mentions with regards to luggage:

Luggage and cycles should be able to be transmitted to the passenger’s destination station without further action by the passenger after initial storage.

And couchette passengers:

If Bidders are proposing couchettes for budget passengers in response to Section 4.1.2.1 (Rolling stock strategy) of the ITT, then they should not expect passengers to have to change location during their journey. Recognising that the Fort William service also provides the first and last service, we would wish budget passengers not to have to change location either. However if for operational reasons a change of location is required then Bidders should set out their reasoning in their Delivery Plan.

Assuming that platform lengths at Euston restrict operation to 16 car trains you might expect the future usage to be more like:

• Glasgow 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 3 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Edinburgh 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 3 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Inverness 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 1 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Aberdeen 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 1 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Fort William 1 Business Sleeper 1 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space

This gives a fleet size of 64 made up of 10 Business Sleepers, 18 standard sleepers, 10 Club Cars 16 seated pods/cradles 10 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space.

The extra 8 cars (to fit the 72 ordered) would be 1-2 x spares of each carriage type with a total order of:

• 12 business sleepers
• 20 standard sleepers
• 11 Club Cars
• 18 seated pods/cradles
• 11 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space

This could keep the construction costs low as you are only actually building 32 specialist sleeper carriages along with 40 fairly standard railway carriages fitted with fairly standard airline/ferry seating.

 

[sprinterguy]

At the moment I believe the format is something like:

• Glasgow 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Edinburgh 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Inverness 4-6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Aberdeen 4-5 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Fort William - London 2 sleepers
• Fort William - Edinburgh 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van

Giving a total carriage nightly usage of 66 vehicles with 9 spares for a total fleet size of 75 (53 sleepers + 11 seated/brake + 11 lounge cars).

Very nearly correct, it is actually:

• Glasgow 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Edinburgh 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Inverness 6 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Aberdeen 3-4 sleepers 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van
• Fort William - London 2-3 sleepers
• Fort William - Edinburgh 1 Lounge 1 seated/brake van

Giving a total carriage nightly usage of 66 vehicles (Four 8-vehicle "half-sets" in each direction into or out of Euston each night plus the Fort William seated portion).

 

[starrymarkb]

as long as the emphasis on quality and innovative marketing keeps up.
As an aside I've always thought there was a market for a "coach busting" overnight Glasgow-London service using something like say a "170" completely seperate from the sleeper, departing around 11pm and perhaps via Killie and Dumfries and calling at Crewe around 4am for early connections to the Manchester and Midlands areas and arriving in London around 6am for Eurostar connections. Even an unrefurbished 170 around would offer more comfort and legroom than any coach with perhaps a trolley service of snacks and drinks (non-alcoholic), the trolley attendant could double up as security assistance to the Guard.

Are those passengers worth chasing? They are very price sensitive.
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And turning it more touristy probably isn't such a bad thing, as it's competing with the airlines for the commuter traffic (and the airlines would win that battle).

Indeed - BA are now using 300 seat 767s on certain EDI/GLA-LHR runs due to demand (I should add that a portion of these would be connecting onto Long Haul from Heathrow)

 

[Altnabreac]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/busin...-london-caledonian-sleeper-service.1401270028

I notice the new RMT guy has taken up exactly where Bob left off, although I'm not a fan of Serco, so am hoping they do treat this differently to certain other government contracts.

Manuel Cortes of TSSA seems to be confusing Stagecoach and First Group. Not ideal for someone who probably represents large numbers of staff in both organisations.

Manuel Cortes, leader of the TSSA rail union, said: "This decision flies in the face of everything (Scottish First Minister) Alex Salmond has been saying about an independent, financially strong Scotland.

"He has taken the contract away from a Perth-based Scottish firm and handed it to an English-based firm which will be given a £60 million subsidy to build new trains in Spain. How does that create any new jobs in his dreamland of an independent Scotland?"

 

[gordonthemoron]

surely the £60 million goes to Spain, which is presumably where Manuel hails from?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Oh and will the existing MkIII sleeper stock find a new use elsewhere?

A more up-to-date version of 'Camping Coaches' anyone?

 

[Altnabreac]

surely the £60 million goes to Spain, which is presumably where Manuel hails from?

I believe he is from Gibraltar so he may not be overly keen on Spain...
http://www.railwaypeople.com/rail-news-articles/gibraltarian-for-tssa-239.html

However he did attend both Heriot Watt and Strathclyde universities so he should know the difference between Perth and Aberdeen.

 

[sprinterguy]

A more up-to-date version of 'Camping Coaches' anyone?

There's several already in similar use, primarily as volunteer accommodation on preserved railways.

 

[Mikey C]

Does the Scottish experience mean tartan blankets on the bed and shortbread in the buffet. Plus a can of tennants.


Menu:
Deep fried pizza

Desert
Deep fried mars bar.

Just kidding.

There will p&ssed Glaswegians abusing you as you get on the train

 

[gordonthemoron]

A more up-to-date version of 'Camping Coaches' anyone?

Perhaps they could be run around the LOROL 'circle' line as some sort of moving hostel

 

[crewmeal]

It will be interesting to see how the traction will work. Will the sets be EMU style or coaches + engine. How will the sets work past Edinburgh?

 

[CallySleeper]

Assuming that platform lengths at Euston restrict operation to 16 car trains you might expect the future usage to be more like:

• Glasgow 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 3 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Edinburgh 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 3 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Inverness 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 1 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Aberdeen 1 Business Sleeper 2 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 1 seated pods/cradles 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space
• Fort William 1 Business Sleeper 1 Standard Sleeper 1 Club Car 1 seated pods/cradles with cycle/luggage space

I'd say 4 seated coaches in the Lowlands each would be too many, especially since you only have one First class. Also, remember that the number of pax/coach will be less if they are to add ensuites.

 

[kermit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahj View Post
Does the Scottish experience mean tartan blankets on the bed and shortbread in the buffet. Plus a can of tennants.


Menu:
Deep fried pizza

Desert
Deep fried mars bar.

Just kidding.
There will p&ssed Glaswegians abusing you as you get on the train



I'll never forget the deep fried Scotch Pie I was given on my first and last visit to a Scottish chippy. The pastry held a puddle of grease, which proceeded to dribble out over the chips. I can send Serco the address if they'd like the recipe.........

 

[Class 170101]

I wonder where that leaves the Edinburgh to Fort William portion as a normal passenger service within Scotland and the same for the Inverness Portion between Kingussuie and Inverness.

 

[clc]

There's now a brochure on the TS website: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...an Sleeper/Caledonian Sleeper Briefing v5.pdf

 

[Steve childs]

At the moment all the carriages make a trip to inverness at least once every 8 days. They often come in with a lot of carriages for servicing. This may stay the same at least until 2018.

 

[Altnabreac]

I'd say 4 seated coaches in the Lowlands each would be too many, especially since you only have one First class. Also, remember that the number of pax/coach will be less if they are to add ensuites.

It's because the ensuites take up more space that I suspect there will be more emphasis on seated cradles/pods.

The tender specifies minimums of 15% business class cabins and 20% standard class cabins but is a little unclear on how the total capacity is calculated.

I'd speculate that it could be anything between 3 and 5 sleeper coaches but you'd imagine construction costs might be less for seated coaches so will be interested to see what balance they have chosen.

 

[Bodiddly]

Reading Keith Brown's parliamentary statement doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about future work at Inverness TMD. The current stock will have to make do until 2018 until they get their brand new shiny sleepers. What happens after they arrive? Does the company invest the money for new facilities and staff training at Inverness? Somehow, I don't think so. He keeps bleating on about TUPE, but as far as I am aware, TUPE doesn't last forever. The new stock could be just the excuse Serco need to move any maintenance work to another depot, most probably South of the border. As someone mentioned earlier, a Scottish contract let to an English company who will in turn, boost the economy of Spain. Bizarre indeed!

 

[NotATrainspott]

There's now a brochure on the TS website: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...an Sleeper/Caledonian Sleeper Briefing v5.pdf

I can see what the media were saying when they said the Serco bid was superb.

Wow.

I don't think the graphics of the train and branding are final just yet. I can't identify the locomotive they have used but it's Co-Co and the carriages don't have Mk3/Mk4 fairings underneath and appear to be 20m long so I am pretty sure they're just for illustration rather than being an actual render of what CAF are offering.

2) On-train
• New trains will be developed in consultation with passengers and be ready and on the tracks in 2018 - suggests they don't actually have a design yet
• Interiors will be created by a leading Scottish designer
• Key features on the new trains will include pod flatbeds/seats and cradle seats in seated accommodation new standard class berths and business berths with en-suite showering and toilet facilities and improved security for all passengers and their luggage; CCTV will be in place throughout the train
• Room service will allow passengers to enjoy Scottish cuisine and drink delivered to their accommodation. Children under 12 will eat free
• The Club Car will be at the heart of the new trains with special themed evenings (comedy, music and literature), a TV screen and a library and games. Wifi and power points will be available for all passengers

 

[sprinterguy]

I can't identify the locomotive they have used

It's a class 92, but as you say, may well be only an indicative illustration.
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I'm really impressed with what Serco are promising to bring to the Caledonian Sleeper, except for the idea of "special themed evenings" in the club car: I like the current quiet, relaxed ambience of the lounge car, and don't want to have to become a recluse ordering whiskies on room service to sup in my cabin if that is lost! I'm not one for enforced entertainment.

 

[LateThanNever]

It's a class 92, but as you say, may well be only an indicative illustration.
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I'm really impressed with what Serco are promising to bring to the Caledonian Sleeper, except for the idea of "special themed evenings" in the club car: I like the current quiet, relaxed ambience of the lounge car, and don't want to have to become a recluse ordering whiskies on room service to sup in my cabin if that is lost! I'm not one for enforced entertainment.

Shame.. I'm sure Alex Salmond on karaoke will win you round!

 

[infobleep]

The Mk2? Scrap heap I'd imagine!

What about some of it being preserved, or is there already preserved sleeper stock?

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[cf111]

a

Reading Keith Brown's parliamentary statement doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about future work at Inverness TMD. The current stock will have to make do until 2018 until they get their brand new shiny sleepers. What happens after they arrive? Does the company invest the money for new facilities and staff training at Inverness? Somehow, I don't think so. He keeps bleating on about TUPE, but as far as I am aware, TUPE doesn't last forever. The new stock could be just the excuse Serco need to move any maintenance work to another depot, most probably South of the border. As someone mentioned earlier, a Scottish contract let to an English company who will in turn, boost the economy of Spain. Bizarre indeed!

There's a part of the brochure linked above which says the following:

The Franchisee will contract with Alstom to provide maintenance during the first three years of the contract which is expected to be extended to the end of the franchise term

I'm no doubt putting two and two together to get five but that indicates Polmadie as a Scottish possibility to me. I hope not for the sake of those at Inverness.

The features on the train from that brochure look fantastic. I hope it works out as well as it is planned to do. I'm not too keen on the old "enforced entertainment" either though, the lounge car is an excellent experience IMO. Nothing quite like bolting through the highlands with a beautiful malt, good company and plate of haggis, neeps and tatties!

 

[sprinterguy]

Shame.. I'm sure Alex Salmond on karaoke will win you round!

I had to chuckle at that.
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What about some of it being preserved, or is there already preserved sleeper stock?

As I mentioned further up the thread, there are already a number of mark 3 sleepers scattered across preserved railways, primarily used as volunteer accommodation.

They seem to be in varying states of repair, so having examples in running condition might be another matter, but then again, there's not really much call for sleeping accommodation on heritage railway services! Preserving one or more of the lounge cars might have some merit, however, but would only be relevant with diesel traction with electric train heat capability.
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Nothing quite like bolting through the highlands with a beautiful malt, good company and plate of haggis, neeps and tatties!

Hear hear!