Settle and Carlisle service question

[43367]

Why does Northern have to to run every service that go over the Settle & Carlisle railway all the way through to and from Leeds?? Why not start and finish the services at Skipton through the day? I can understand the first and last services running all the way through but in my eyes there is no benefit as the service between Leeds / Bradford to Skipton are provided by the very pleasent and efficent class 333s and even the 321 & 322's are very good, and how many times has the stopping services been held up because the Carlisle service have been running late and the "express" service have to be let out in front and with their slower acceleration they hold up the stopping services even more.

Also without going to and from Leeds this saves well over an hour so maybe an extra path or two could be found to increase the frequency of the service over the line.

If this idea was taken forward it could also free up some 158's and maybe allow 156's back over the line, or even 155's as there would be no point in using 158's as the top speed over the line past Skipton is only 60mph wasting the 100mph max speed, i think, of the 158's which could be used on faster linesin the Northern area

 

[syorksdeano]

1 service (on a Sunday) goes to and from Nottingham to Carlisle

 

[Wolf]

Maintaing direct through services to and from Leeds is important as many passengers do not like changing and it would most probably add at least a bit of time to the end to end Carlisle to Leeds journey time having to switch trains at skipton. Maybe the answer would be to cut the stopping patterns down on some services , maybe miss bingley out like the do at present on some of morcambe sand maybe even run some fast from Shipley to skipton but not sure if paths would necessarily exist for that .

 

[47802]

Why does Northern have to to run every service that go over the Settle & Carlisle railway all the way through to and from Leeds?? Why not start and finish the services at Skipton through the day? I can understand the first and last services running all the way through but in my eyes there is no benefit as the service between Leeds / Bradford to Skipton are provided by the very pleasent and efficent class 333s and even the 321 & 322's are very good, and how many times has the stopping services been held up because the Carlisle service have been running late and the "express" service have to be let out in front and with their slower acceleration they hold up the stopping services even more.

Also without going to and from Leeds this saves well over an hour so maybe an extra path or two could be found to increase the frequency of the service over the line.

If this idea was taken forward it could also free up some 158's and maybe allow 156's back over the line, or even 155's as there would be no point in using 158's as the top speed over the line past Skipton is only 60mph wasting the 100mph max speed, i think, of the 158's which could be used on faster linesin the Northern area

What a load of tosh, the S&C run through to Leeds because there is significant traffic derived from their, it being a major city and a major interchange for many routes. As for the 158's I don't think speed comes into it particularly, there are plenty of Northern Routes where the 158's don't make use of their faster speed anyway particularly as they may be attached to a lower speed unit. This is a route where quite a lot of passenger do the entire route which is 2.5 hours + so 158 is probably appreciated. Does a passenger travelling to Leeds for a day trip on the S&C also want to have to change at Skipton as well I think not.

Its the same argument with the Lancaster/Morecambe services really.

 

[cf111]

If this idea was taken forward it could also free up some 158's and maybe allow 156's back over the line, or even 155's as there would be no point in using 158's as the top speed over the line past Skipton is only 60mph wasting the 100mph max speed, i think, of the 158's which could be used on faster linesin the Northern area

The top speed of the 158s is 90 MPH.

 

[David Barrett]

I recall that, when operated in the OP's suggested form, the stopping service became a closure victim.

 

[Tomnick]

There's one thing on there that's novel anyway - it can't be very often that a stopping service gets stuck following the preceding express! I'm not sure that it actually does, of course...

 

[NottsPhil]

Very much agree with the above - in my (albeit limited) use of this service the numbers getting on/off at Skipton aren't especially significant and certainly a large number of people from Settle use it to travel to Leeds. There also seems to be a significant flow of walkers from Horton, Ribblehead etc. It would be like stopping all WCML services at Watford Junction and chucking everyone off onto London Overground into Euston (alright, maybe thats a slight exaggeration!).

Of all the services Northern run this is one which definitely does need 158s given the length of the journey. A surprising number of people do the journey end-to-end - I had a friend who lived in Glasgow visiting in Nottingham and he said his cheapest route back was via the S&C.

 

[BantamMenace]

There is a service that leaves Leeds about 18:15, calls at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Steeton and Silsden and Skipton and is alsways a 2-car 158. This should in my opinion be nonstop until Skipton and Skipton not advertised as a stop in Leeds so to make it pick-up only. The service is always used by the everyday airedale line commuter and hence becomes very busy until Skipton. This would allow passengers for stations north of Skipton to actually gain a seat for their entire journey home from Leeds.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There is a service that leaves Leeds about 18:15, calls at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Steeton and Silsden and Skipton and is alsways a 2-car 158. This should in my opinion be nonstop until Skipton and Skipton not advertised as a stop in Leeds so to make it pick-up only. The service is always used by the everyday airedale line commuter and hence becomes very busy until Skipton. This would allow passengers for stations north of Skipton to actually gain a seat for their entire journey home from Leeds.

You make a very good point here and my in-laws who commute from Ribblehead / Dent to Leeds use that service and often have to stand. However I would retain the Shipley stop for anyone who commutes from the Northern Dales to Bradford.

On a more general note it's worth remembering that many people who travel on the S & C are not simply looking for a day out on the train. There are a fair few people who commute from Ribblesdale to Leeds and in return there are many people who use the service for a day in the hills and these journeys are time senstive. We should be looking to improve the timetable rather than attempting to run down the service by terminating services at Skipton!

 

[D6975]

Apart from the service mentioned above, S&C services usually only call at Shipley and Keighley between Skipton and Leeds don't they?
The notion that these services would hold up an all shacks EMU is bizarre.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The S&Cs also stop at Bingley, though they never used to.

The S&Cs don't hold up the stoppers, and there's no benefit to curtailing them to Skipton. Leeds is the main traffic flow so making people change at Skipton would serve no purpose whatsoever, unless you actually want to see passenger numbers fall off a cliff. It wouldn't free up any paths at all, at best you'd be replacing a 2-car 158 with a 4-car 321/322 and annoying all the through passengers.

The 1806 Leeds-Carlisle is a funny one. It picks up a fair few in Shipley, but the Aire Valley commuters use it and it can sometimes be fun trying to get on it at Leeds. Making it pick-up only would help but commuters tend to get wise to that very quickly.

If anything was going to be stopped at Skipton it'd make more sense to do it for the little North Western trains. And you'd only do that to improve the frequency north of Skipton. Again the existing trains don't "hold up" the stoppers, but there isn't the capacity to run any more trains through to Leeds, so additional trains would need to start at Skipton.

 

[30907]

The 1806 was booked 3 cars a few years back when it left 10-20 mins earlier, as was the Ribblehead starter. This was before the additional trains a year or two ago. Has this permanently become 2 cars?

If the 1806 ran nonstop to Skipton (with lots of pathing time), what would its loading be?

 

[BantamMenace]

The 1806 was booked 3 cars a few years back when it left 10-20 mins earlier, as was the Ribblehead starter. This was before the additional trains a year or two ago. Has this permanently become 2 cars?

If the 1806 ran nonstop to Skipton (with lots of pathing time), what would its loading be?

I get the 18:01 from BDQ to Shipley every week day in an attempt to connect with the 17:56 from LDS to SKI for my onward journey to Crossflatts. I only make it maybe once a month so i sit at Shipley P5 and i've yet to see in my 6 weeks of doing this anything other than a 2-car 158 on the 1806. I occasionally board it if im only going as far as Bingley and its standing room only despite upwards of 50 alighting at Shipley. If it ran through to Skipton non-stop i cant see the Airedale commuters changing away from rail when there's 3 local tph at that time and if anything it'd encourage more use for commutes to/from north of Skipton to use the train over other alternatives if they were more assured of being able to get a seat for their entire journey. Even if it doesnt get much above 60mph due to following something it still seems a win win. Either increasing passenger numbers, reducing journey time or both.

(only loss is people who commute to other airedale line stations from north of Skipton losing their direct service but i doubt there is many in this bracket and it's still a simple change at Skipton)

 

[Tim R-T-C]

On the OP's question, I believe the starting and endings of the S&C and Morecambe/Heysham services at Leeds is for convenience of providing rolling stock, allowing sets to be switched if needed as there are no DMUs routinely stored at Skipton.

There is a service that leaves Leeds about 18:15, calls at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Steeton and Silsden and Skipton and is alsways a 2-car 158. This should in my opinion be nonstop until Skipton and Skipton not advertised as a stop in Leeds so to make it pick-up only.

I used to use this service all the time when I worked in Leeds (live in Steeton). It used to run about 5 minutes after an all-stops 333, which meant that it was never too busy, but offered an alternative for commuters. I have my doubts that its loading after Skipton would be sufficient to warrant running non-stop and there are people who board on-route at Bingley and Keighley who want to catch the last train of the evening up the S&C.

 

[David Goddard]

Running through to Leeds is logical and makes good business sense. The S&C is an important route for a number of reasons, and having through trains from Leeds helps to make is attractive for routine use and for when things go wrong elsewhere (ie wires down on ECML or WCML).
Cutting the service to Skipton would increase journey times and create inconvenience for through passengers (all very well saying "simple change" but that only applies if it is same or cross platform). Plus if one train is timed to wait for the other and one is late then they are both late.

I have seen this happen with rural extensions of bus services in the past and it ends up killing off the trade with the subsequent decline of the rural connection.
We wouldn't envisage terminating Exeter to Waterloo trains at Basingstoke now would we?

With 185s being released from the Huddersfield route in a few years, this is a good opportunity to further develop the S&C, by transferring the route to TPX and utilising Class 185s for a step change in service. The same would be ideal for a Blackpool - Scarborough service.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I get the 18:01 from BDQ to Shipley every week day in an attempt to connect with the 17:56 from LDS to SKI for my onward journey to Crossflatts. I only make it maybe once a month so i sit at Shipley P5 and i've yet to see in my 6 weeks of doing this anything other than a 2-car 158 on the 1806. I occasionally board it if im only going as far as Bingley and its standing room only despite upwards of 50 alighting at Shipley. If it ran through to Skipton non-stop i cant see the Airedale commuters changing away from rail when there's 3 local tph at that time and if anything it'd encourage more use for commutes to/from north of Skipton to use the train over other alternatives if they were more assured of being able to get a seat for their entire journey. Even if it doesnt get much above 60mph due to following something it still seems a win win. Either increasing passenger numbers, reducing journey time or both.

If the 1806 ran non stop (although I still think a stop at Shipley would be beneficial) would this enable the service to run a few minutes later from Leeds? Those few minutes would make quite a difference to anyone working in Leeds but living in the Northern Dales. To be honest a 1830 departure would make life a lot easier given the length of the commutes north of Skipton and would save having to wait for the Ribblehead terminator. Not only that but Dentdale to Garsdale is a much quicker journey by road (if it’s not blocked by snow!) than driving via Newby Head to Ribblehead station.

I've never really understood why the Ribblehead terminator has not been extended to Garsdale. The station signal box is never switched out and would help more people to commute from Sedbergh and Hawes. I accept that these are not big settlements but it would encourage people to not migrate from the Dales.

 

[yorksrob]

Running through to Leeds is logical and makes good business sense. The S&C is an important route for a number of reasons, and having through trains from Leeds helps to make is attractive for routine use and for when things go wrong elsewhere (ie wires down on ECML or WCML).
Cutting the service to Skipton would increase journey times and create inconvenience for through passengers (all very well saying "simple change" but that only applies if it is same or cross platform). Plus if one train is timed to wait for the other and one is late then they are both late.

I have seen this happen with rural extensions of bus services in the past and it ends up killing off the trade with the subsequent decline of the rural connection.
We wouldn't envisage terminating Exeter to Waterloo trains at Basingstoke now would we?

With 185s being released from the Huddersfield route in a few years, this is a good opportunity to further develop the S&C, by transferring the route to TPX and utilising Class 185s for a step change in service. The same would be ideal for a Blackpool - Scarborough service.

Agree regarding the through route but wouldn't regard the 185's as an improvement over 158's

 

[DarloRich]

Why does Northern have to to run every service that go over the Settle & Carlisle railway all the way through to and from Leeds?? Why not start and finish the services at Skipton through the day? I can understand the first and last services running all the way through but in my eyes there is no benefit as the service between Leeds / Bradford to Skipton are provided by the very pleasent and efficent class 333s and even the 321 & 322's are very good, and how many times has the stopping services been held up because the Carlisle service have been running late and the "express" service have to be let out in front and with their slower acceleration they hold up the stopping services even more.

Also without going to and from Leeds this saves well over an hour so maybe an extra path or two could be found to increase the frequency of the service over the line.

If this idea was taken forward it could also free up some 158's and maybe allow 156's back over the line, or even 155's as there would be no point in using 158's as the top speed over the line past Skipton is only 60mph wasting the 100mph max speed, i think, of the 158's which could be used on faster linesin the Northern area

What on earth are you talking about?

Leeds and Carlisle are the key population centres on that route. They offer the easiest way for most people to get onto a service on the S&C and offers mainline connections to key cities. Most people get on at one of the terminus stations and off in the middle or do the full route. The loadings from Leeds are high and that would be at risk by adding an extra change into the service. This would lead to a reduction in passenger numbers and impact on the economic viability of the route. Also you are going to have to run units empty to and from Skipton using up crews and paths and not offering maximum utilisation of already scare stock. Cutting Leeds off the route would be lunacy!

As for the 158’s they seem fine for the route and the best Northern can throw at what is one of their more well known and popular routes. I have travelled that line on a 144/150/153/155/156/158. The 158’s are well set out, have tables and big windows (that could do with a clean more often) and are fairly comfortable. Unless you can rustle me up a 47 or 37 and some MKii’s I will take the 158. Swapping those units for a “lesser” unit would also be commercially stupid as it simply generates bad press for Northern and turns people off using the route

There is a service that leaves Leeds about 18:15, calls at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Steeton and Silsden and Skipton and is alsways a 2-car 158. This should in my opinion be nonstop until Skipton and Skipton not advertised as a stop in Leeds so to make it pick-up only. The service is always used by the everyday airedale line commuter and hence becomes very busy until Skipton. This would allow passengers for stations north of Skipton to actually gain a seat for their entire journey home from Leeds.

Yes – terrible – customers using a service to get home after work. Awful. Imagine that. How do you think running a half empty peak time train out of a large city is going to go down? Your plan is to take out a peak hour train and replace it with…….. (Can you force another all stops train up the line without impacting on the wider timetable. Are there the trains to do so?)

A case for using a longer train on this service does, however, seem to exist!

 

[Deerfold]

I get the 18:01 from BDQ to Shipley every week day in an attempt to connect with the 17:56 from LDS to SKI for my onward journey to Crossflatts. I only make it maybe once a month so i sit at Shipley P5 and i've yet to see in my 6 weeks of doing this anything other than a 2-car 158 on the 1806. I occasionally board it if im only going as far as Bingley and its standing room only despite upwards of 50 alighting at Shipley. If it ran through to Skipton non-stop i cant see the Airedale commuters changing away from rail when there's 3 local tph at that time and if anything it'd encourage more use for commutes to/from north of Skipton to use the train over other alternatives if they were more assured of being able to get a seat for their entire journey. Even if it doesnt get much above 60mph due to following something it still seems a win win. Either increasing passenger numbers, reducing journey time or both.

(only loss is people who commute to other airedale line stations from north of Skipton losing their direct service but i doubt there is many in this bracket and it's still a simple change at Skipton)

I think the problem with that train is not that it stops, but that it's only 2 carriages.

I've caught plenty of 4 carrigage 158s along the S & C that have been busy - to only provide a 2 carriage in the late peak (and the only practical train for many commuters north of Skipton) is diappointing (I realise there's not lots of spare around and it may be difficult, but it's still disappointing).

 

[BantamMenace]

The alternative to making it non stop to Skipton then is to make it 4 or 5-car until Skipton or even all the way.

To be frank i'd like to see a credible BCR for the airedale and wharfedale lines being operated as a 6-car railway up from 4-car as it currently is. The BCR would be boosted by whatever the benefit of having the 333s utilised elsewhere also. Hopefully Harrogate loop line, York stoppers, Selby stoppers and Huddersfield locals.

 

[Bunting14]

Went from Lancaster to Leeds today and here are my observations.

About 40 people were on the train at Carnforth and we dropped off 2 people before Skipton and picked up 6. Maybe 5 people got off at Skipton with 20 people getting on. Nearly everyone else went all the way through to Leeds.

As the train only then stopped at Keighley, Bingley and Shipley any lost Pacer time compared to an electric I assume was made up by not stopping at all the other stations. Certainly the Pacer seemed to be going at some speed after Shipley.

 

[northernchris]

I think the problem with that train is not that it stops, but that it's only 2 carriages.

I think removing the Steeton & Silsden call would free up some capacity on the 1806 as it is the only Carlisle service of the day to call there. Making the 1806 non stop to Skipton will cause further capacity issues on the Skipton stoppers, the 1756 from Leeds is already very busy

 

[43167]

I think removing the Steeton & Silsden call would free up some capacity on the 1806 as it is the only Carlisle service of the day to call there. Making the 1806 non stop to Skipton will cause further capacity issues on the Skipton stoppers, the 1756 from Leeds is already very busy

There is the 1st service going north too, 0529 Leeds to Carlisle.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 1806 is a strange one, it needs more capacity to skipton but beyond Settle you probably need nothing more than a 153, especially in winter. I'm not sure where northern would find the carriages to strengthen the train either.