Sheffield Tram-Train

[142094]

If this were Europe, it would have been done by now. Sad state of affairs when the Press and politicians are getting excited by a trial scheme.

I've just come back from Karlsruhe in Germany where they have been doing this sort of thing quietly and without the fuss for years.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If this were Europe, it would have been done by now. Sad state of affairs when the Press and politicians are getting excited by a trial scheme.

I've just come back from Karlsruhe in Germany where they have been doing this sort of thing quietly and without the fuss for years.

Yep, i know someone who used to work in sheffield and he went out on a fact finding trip to germany and still goes on holiday i believe. He said it as absolutely fantastic, he thinks it would work in this country, but we need a better tram system to go with it (in most cities he believes the tram is inadequate)

 

[Nym]

No suitable lines in manchester to test it on. The reason it is tested here as it is converting a lightly used freight line.

Soo.....


These lines that connect directly onto the Metrolink Network and go to areas in desperate need of additional services don't count then...?

Alty - Knutsford - Northwich - Chester (Mid Cheshire Line)

Radcliffe - Bury Bolton Street - Rawthenstall (East Lancs Railway)

Neither of these are suitable?

 

[tbtc]

Soo.....


These lines that connect directly onto the Metrolink Network and go to areas in desperate need of additional services don't count then...?

Alty - Knutsford - Northwich - Chester (Mid Cheshire Line)

Radcliffe - Bury Bolton Street - Rawthenstall (East Lancs Railway)

Neither of these are suitable?

You want to electrify the East Lancs line?

And you'd need a fairly frequent service to justify wiring the Mid Cheshire line (which currently only gets on train an hour).

Rotherham is a short extension of electrification from Meadowhall with a twenty minute frequency, so a pretty decent test bed.

 

[Nym]

Oh, so it's not a Electrodiesel Tram-Train like they were going for originally....

Hmm, Rotherham does make more sense and I'd be hard pressed to find somewhere better then.

EDTTs would be needed for the routes I mentioned.

 

[tbtc]

Oh, so it's not a Electrodiesel Tram-Train like they were going for originally....

Hmm, Rotherham does make more sense and I'd be hard pressed to find somewhere better then.

EDTTs would be needed for the routes I mentioned.

It was initially planned to have diesels running (hence the Penistone line being a previous suggestion)...

...but it's now basically an extension of the Supertram a few miles to Rotherham (with different vehicles needed to comply with the fact that they'll be sharing tracks at Rotherham Central - but still basically electric trams).

Bear in mind that Sheffield's trams have had no extension since being introduced in the '90s, unlike Manchester - with Birmingham/ Nottingham both planning extensions too.

 

[dosxuk]

Oh, so it's not a Electrodiesel Tram-Train like they were going for originally....

Wasn't it a case that nobody would build an electro-diesel for the amount DfT were willing to pay, and they then worked out that provided a short enough route could be found, it could work out cheaper to use an off the shelf tram-train and electify the new bit?

 

[Mattmatt]

No suitable lines in manchester to test it on. The reason it is tested here as it is converting a lightly used freight line.

Manchester - Marple, it's been on the cards for the last two decades? & was recently discussed in parliament as an option from the just announced Sheffield trial; as it was taking so long to come to fruition! (albetit not so lightly used) Closing it for the change would be on the scale of closing the Oldham line for conversion to OLE etc.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Manchester - Marple, it's been on the cards for the last two decades? & was recently discussed in parliament as an option from the just announced Sheffield trial; as it was taking so long to come to fruition! (albetit not so lightly used) Closing it for the change would be on the scale of closing the Oldham line for conversion to OLE etc.

Not for a trial though, the complexities of intergrating it with much heavier used lines of that area, as well as the increased distance over which it operates make the current sheffield-rotherham project perfectly suited to a trial. I do not disagree that marple is a good logical choice for it to be rolled out on as an already tested concept in this country, i am simply refering to the trial.

Closing the oldham loop was to close it for an already tested method as an expansion of current system not a trial. Plus the line to marple from manchester also in parts shares with services to sheffield and also TPE services (guide bridge area) so would be far more complex to close than oldham loop.

 

[WatcherZero]

Essentially the routes around Manchester are too heavily used for their purposes, they wanted a lightly used line for the trial.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Essentially the routes around Manchester are too heavily used for their purposes, they wanted a lightly used line for the trial.

Dont know why i bothered typing the above, your way of putting it is much more to the point

 

[Nym]

And a side from all of that, Trams simply aren't big enough for Manchester commuters, are we're soon to find out when the Oldham Loop re-opens, and we found out in 1991...

If this 'cheap-o' electrification technique comes to working then the commuter lines around Manchester should be seeing it ASAP. (Marple, New Mills, Atherton, Rochdale, CLC) at 25kV OHL, not 750V DC.

 

[WestRiding]

I beleive the Tram Train project is to be tied in with the re-signalling of Woodburn, Woodhouse and Beighon too, with control of the Network Rail section (meadowhall south to parkgate) control transfering to Sheffield PSB signalling wise. Any confirmation of this?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester - Marple, it's been on the cards for the last two decades? & was recently discussed in parliament as an option from the just announced Sheffield trial; as it was taking so long to come to fruition! (albeit not so lightly used) Closing it for the change would be on the scale of closing the Oldham line for conversion to OLE etc.

I should imagine that this news would be received with some trepidation in many quarters, not just amongst the residents of the Romiley and Marple area, but there is the rather more pressing matter of the rail service to Sheffield via Chinley that passes along this route. Would the line closure so debated cause all the Sheffield trains to be diverted via Hazel Grove ? Is there pathway capacity to allow for this to happen.

There is then the matter of Strines and New Mills Central to be considered. How were these two places addressed in the discussions you state ?

 

[northwichcat]

They should have trialled it in Manchester; some would say we've already got tram/trains running already?

No suitable lines in manchester to test it on. The reason it is tested here as it is converting a lightly used freight line.

There were suitable lines to test diesel or dual powered tram-trains to run on National Rail and Metrolink lines and they wouldn't have needed new platforms building unlike at Rotherham. Knutsford-Manchester via Sale uses the same level platforms throughout and involves running alongside heavy passenger rail, freight, segregated light rail and street running light rail. That more than ticks all the boxes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Knutsford-Manchester via Sale uses the same level platforms throughout and involves running alongside heavy passenger rail, freight, segregated light rail and street running light rail. That more than ticks all the boxes.

Given the type of construction used in the bodyshells of the Manchester Metrolink tram units and the regulations with regard to their proximity to freight trains, such as the heavy rail freight trains, at Navigation Road station, where a single line section of both heavy rail and light rail run parallel to each other (soon to be repeated at the Metrolink station of Newton Heath and Moston (formerly Dean Lane) because of the container trains to the refuse compaction facility), how will the bodyshell of tram-trains compare and will the same such regulations apply to tram-trains ?

 

[northwichcat]

how will the bodyshell of tram-trains compare and will the same such regulations apply to tram-trains ?

The idea of a tram-train is that it is cleared for both Network Rail operation and tram line operation. I'm not sure on the exact technical details but it would basically be a heavy tram.

They can take different forms.

This German electric version is basically a hybrid between a tram and a train: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heilbronn_Bahnhofsvorplatz_Stadtbahn01_2002-09-08.jpg

While this diesel version runs to a different gauge to the ordinary trams using a 3 track system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zwickau_TrainTram.jpg

The latter wouldn't really be an option for Manchester but would work with a smaller tram system that's mainly street running.

I should have mentioned in my previous post that the Rotherham freight line is not being converted as YorkshireBear says - it's been adapted to allow electric tram-trains alongside existing freight use.

The earlier plan was of course for Huddersfield-Sheffield services to go over to diesel tram-trains, with half the lengths of the platforms being lowered. Then in phase 2 the Meadowhall-Sheffield bit would have switched to the Supertram line instead of the National Rail line. The reason that scheme was dropped was the cost of lowering platforms at all stations especially considering tram-trains may have been removed from the line in the future.

Like I said the Manchester platforms are heavy rail height, although I accept that heavy rail platforms are a consistent height. That is actually why I said Knutsford-Manchester and not Northwich-Manchester as Northwich has a low platform and would likely need rebuilding should tram-trains without an on-board conductor operate from there.

 

[tbtc]

There were suitable lines to test diesel or dual powered tram-trains to run on National Rail and Metrolink lines and they wouldn't have needed new platforms building unlike at Rotherham. Knutsford-Manchester via Sale uses the same level platforms throughout and involves running alongside heavy passenger rail, freight, segregated light rail and street running light rail. That more than ticks all the boxes.

That sounds reasonable, if they were using diesel powered units

 

[WatcherZero]

It was in part cost of a one off diesel tram-train design but mostly it was down to emmisions, no manufacturer at the time made a diesel engine that met the newer Euro V and Euro VI standards.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would the cost of extending the 750V DC OHLE from Altrincham to Knutsford be any greater than the cost of the infrastructure works for the Sheffield trial? Track and signalling alterations would be confined to a couple of crossovers.

 

[Nym]

Would the cost of extending the 750V DC OHLE from Altrincham to Knutsford be any greater than the cost of the infrastructure works for the Sheffield trial? Track and signalling alterations would be confined to a couple of crossovers.

The problem with this section is the Navigation Road issue, there just isn't the capacity there and if it were to become a full service, then both platforms would need to be used at Navigation Road, so all services down that way would need to be Tram Trains (Freight goes through Navvy Road). It would also be quite illogical then to extend this as 750V OHL when it would isolate swathes of the freight network from infill.

If we were extending to Knutsford and improving frequency (by running these as additional services) then it would proberbly be best to use dual voltage tram-trains and have the wires extending to Knustford as 25kV OHL and have the changeover point before Navigation Road, so that both platforms are at 25kV OHL (And this can then be extended later in both directions to Stockport & Hazel Grove and Chester & Sandbatch. Rather than isolating the Mid Cheshire from ever being electrified.

But if we're going that far, some further swathes of four track would be nice, and if TT running becomes proven, and Cheshire Council stop hating public transport, a Tram Train route (Diesel or Electric) to Liverpool Lime Street from Timperley Jcn would be a possiblity, running via Lymm, Warrington BQ Low Level and Widnes (South)

 

[YorkshireBear]

There are plenty of places better suited to a tram train than the sheffield project. However i do not see any places better to hold a trial for a tram train project.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But if we're going that far, some further swathes of four track would be nice, and if TT running becomes proven, and Cheshire Council stop hating public transport, a Tram Train route (Diesel or Electric) to Liverpool Lime Street from Timperley Jcn would be a possibility, running via Lymm, Warrington BQ Low Level and Widnes (South)

Have you ever visited the area of any of the line "proposal" from the Skelton Junction area in Altrincham onwards to Lymm then to Warrington, in recent years ? Where this line crossed Manchester Road in Broadheath, the bridge was removed many years ago and the raised embankment area upon which Broadheath station was situated was totally removed all along the parallel route of Atlantic Street. George Richards Way and a large retail park has been in situ there for quite a number of years and quite a number of new buildings have been erected upon the redundant line of the former route.

That is just the very early part of the line plan. What land use has been made of other parts of this route in the Heatley & Warburton and in the Lymm area? Land prices, even for agricultural land, are not what you would describe as a small financial matter. How much did your budgetary estimates allow for, to enable the land for this route..in all the total length where a rail reinstatement project would be required to meet up with an already existing rail route?

I travelled along this route on the "Warcop Wanderer" railtour in 1983 and that must have been virtually the last train to travel over that route....and that was 29 years ago!!

 

[Nym]

The tram traineyness of the project would reduce the cost between Warrington and Lymm as it would be treated primarally as a tram line so could cope with tight curves etc to get round obstacles, through the industrial / commercial estate would be on street running.

This isn't really a next 15 years project I'd like to see anyway, more a 30 year or so project, just keeping the route safeguarded from any extra development, if it could have dropped straight back in as Heavy Rail and the Alty line could be converted back as such (and a curve in Trafford to loop back to Trafford Park) then it would be very worthwhile as it could be used to divert freight out of Central Manchester, but that will proberbly never happen now with the development on the route, and it would be cheaper to build a bridge over the M62 and run freight via Glazebrook and Culceath onto the CLC from Earlstown on the WCML, combined of course with electrification of the CLC route, and re-instating four tracking where available.

 

[tbtc]

a Tram Train route (Diesel or Electric) to Liverpool Lime Street from Timperley Jcn would be a possiblity, running via Lymm, Warrington BQ Low Level and Widnes (South)

Manchester to Liverpool by tram? Via Timperley?

 

[Nym]

Manchester to Liverpool by tram? Via Timperley?

Manchester to Warrington BQ LL via Timperley and Warrington BQ to Liverpool LS via LSP.

Would be much better if it could be re-opened as heavy rail, but the chances are it will never happen so I'd expect the line via Culceath to re-open long before it happens via Lymm.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem with this section is the Navigation Road issue, there just isn't the capacity there and if it were to become a full service, then both platforms would need to be used at Navigation Road, so all services down that way would need to be Tram Trains (Freight goes through Navvy Road). It would also be quite illogical then to extend this as 750V OHL when it would isolate swathes of the freight network from infill.

An alternative could be electrifying the NR line at standard voltage and then having dual voltage tram-trains.

Honestly though I can't see the freight on the Mid-Cheshire line going over to electric traction. There is an intermediate section from Northenden onwards only used by a few freight trains per day so electrifying it can't be that high up the list of priorities. Then there is occasional freight that comes off the Middlewich branch, which is only normally used by one of two trains per week, unless Virgin are diverting Holyhead-London services that way.

 

[Nym]

An alternative could be electrifying the NR line at standard voltage and then having dual voltage tram-trains.

Sorry... wha?

If we were extending to Knutsford and improving frequency (by running these as additional services) then it would proberbly be best to use dual voltage tram-trains and have the wires extending to Knustford as 25kV OHL and have the changeover point before Navigation Road, so that both platforms are at 25kV OHL (And this can then be extended later in both directions to Stockport & Hazel Grove and Chester & Sandbatch. Rather than isolating the Mid Cheshire from ever being electrified.

Didn't I just say that a few posts back?

And either way, if we're having both platform at Navvy Rd for both types of service, why would you want to have two types of tram-train operating when you can have one type that is Dual Voltage?

And if we was to have EMUs running part way up and down the Mid Cheshire Line then the DMU via Stockport would be nicely speeded up between Alty and Knutsford or Northwich to try and make the journey times competative again. Of course, using EDMU Tram-Trains with 25kV, 750V and Diesel Generators, braught under the hat of ATOC would mean that we could stop wasting a path between Stockport and Manchester by terminating the service off the Mid Cheshire at Stockport.

 

[notadriver]

Tram drivers currently get around 23k. Would tram-train drivers get heavy rail drivers salaries ?

 

[tbtc]

Tram drivers currently get around 23k. Would tram-train drivers get heavy rail drivers salaries ?

As a comparison, does anyone know whether drivers on the Tyne & Wear Metro got any salary increase when they started running on NR lines to Sunderland?