Shoreditch Overground: why not in Zone 2?

[jbg]

How come Shoreditch Highstreet is now in zone 1 now, when the old station (that looks as though it was actually slightly west and therefore closer to the centre of the City) and was entirely in zone 2. is it just TFL money grabbing?

 

[yorkie]

See London Overground: shurely shome mishtake....
and

I've never bought the claim that Shoreditch High Street LO being in Z1 is a fiddle.

If anything, it was a fiddle that Shoreditch LU was ever in Z2. If you look at this old map from 1999 (when there were still bus zones), you can see that the zone boundary has a massive bulge in it to keep Shoreditch LU in Z2. The area around Shoreditch High St LO is very much Z1 territory - the Z1/Z2 boundary was just north of where Hoxton LO is today.

... If Shoreditch High Street was on the Z1/2 boundary then there would be a massive increase in use by commuters from South London working in the City. It would not be balanced out by increased zone 2 through fares. In fact, forget 5 car trains, you'd need 10-12 car trains to cope with the extra demand.

I can assure you from commuting that way in the past that Shoreditch High St has lots of commuter use. The trains can be rather full around peak time.

How would you fund
(a) the loss in revenue; and
(b) the necessary platform and train lengthening that would be required?

However I do believe that consideration should be given for through journeys via Shoeditch High St to be charged at a lower rate, not charging for Zone 1.

 

[jbg]

See London Overground: shurely shome mishtake....

So a journey from Whitechapel to Hoxton can be made via Clapham Jnc. cheaper as it's all in zone 2?

So the answer to the question "is it TFL money grabbing" is yes.

 

[yorkie]

So a journey from Whitechapel to Hoxton can be made via Clapham Jnc. cheaper as it's all in zone 2?

So the answer to the question "is it TFL money grabbing" is yes.

No.

There is no fare defined via Clapham Junction because that is a bonkers routeing for that journey.

However a journey from Whitehchapel to Hoxton can be made at the cheaper rate avoiding Zone 1 by travelling via (and tapping the pink reader at) Stratford.

 

[jbg]

No.

There is no fare defined via Clapham Junction because that is a bonkers routeing for that journey.

However a journey from Whitehchapel to Hoxton can be made at the cheaper rate avoiding Zone 1 by travelling via (and tapping the pink reader at) Stratford.

If you don't have a travel card that includes zone 1 then yes you might.

Anyway, how much further is Stratford and back?

 

[yorkie]

If you don't have a travel card that includes zone 1 then yes you might.

Whitechapel to Hoxton takes 1h40 min via Clapham Jn, or 41min via Mile End/Stratford/Dalston Kingsland/Dalston Jn or 35-45min by bus.

Or you can do it in 4 mins for a modest fare via Zone 1.

So I can't see why anyone would go via Clapham Jn (unless they just wanted to travel for the sake of travelling)

If anyone was desperate to use their Travelcard and pay no extra they would take a bus (which would be included on the Travelcard) or travel via Stratford. They would not travel via Clapham Jn.

 

[jbg]

So these extra commuters are going into zone 1 anyway?

And I'd expect it to be 1hr 10 if you get a good connection. (am I right in thinking it would be 4 trains? (Whitechapel to Mile End to Stratford to Canonbury to Hoxton).

 

[yorkie]

So these extra commuters are going into zone 1 anyway?

I don't understand how you've worded the question. The extra commuters who would use Shoreditch, if it was in Zone 2, would be some of those who currently commute into Liverpool Street and would benefit from a cheaper fare

 

[jbg]

I don't understand how you've worded the question. The extra commuters who would use Shoreditch, if it was in Zone 2, would be some of those who currently commute into Liverpool Street and would benefit from a cheaper fare

Unless they work in zone 2, they probably work in zone 1. So, as I said, they would be going to zone 1 anyway. So THEY wouldn't be paying any more (unless they walk from Shoreditch into the City?)

 

[yorkie]

If you moved Shoreditch into Zone 2 (despite geographically being in the Zone 1 area) more people would be wanting to buy a cheaper Travelcard, excluding Zone 1, and walk from there.

 

[MikeWh]

Unless they work in zone 2, they probably work in zone 1. So, as I said, they would be going to zone 1 anyway. So THEY wouldn't be paying any more (unless they walk from Shoreditch into the City?)

Shoreditch High Street is 5 minutes walk from Liverpool Street.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I don't understand how you've worded the question. The extra commuters who would use Shoreditch, if it was in Zone 2, would be some of those who currently commute into Liverpool Street and would benefit from a cheaper fare

Actually I think the main concern was that City commuters into London Bridge (and Cannon Street) may have switched, with revenue abstracted away from the South Central franchisee (i.e. Southern). This was the argument put forward by the DfT/government, who made putting Shoreditch High Street into zone 1 a condition of their funding contribution for the south London extension of the LO East London Line (i.e. the Surrey Quays to Queens Rd Peckham link, plus the associated platform works at Clapham Junction).

Until this point, TfL's plan had always been to place Shoreditch High Street in zone 2.

 

[jbg]

Shoreditch High Street is 5 minutes walk from Liverpool Street.

how far is it into the City from there?

 

[Joe Paxton]

how far is it into the City from there?

Liverpool Street station is within the boundaries of the City of London. Shoreditch High Street is just outside.

One thing that has changed in recent years is there has been a lot of new office developments in this area, on the edge of the City and just beyond (e.g. the new-ish Spitalfields development).

 

[Clip]

They would be mental if they included Shoreditch High street into zone 2 - the revenue loss would be immense and as its now and important place with shed loads more people living there than there was before the ELL and the connections to get to other parts of london without using the tube then they would be throwing away revenue

 

[jbg]

They would be mental if they included Shoreditch High street into zone 2 - the revenue loss would be immense and as its now and important place with shed loads more people living there than there was before the ELL and the connections to get to other parts of london without using the tube then they would be throwing away revenue

why was it in zone 2 originally I wonder.

 

[PeterC]

why was it in zone 2 originally I wonder.

The station in zone 2 was in a different location. Also when the zones were first defined there was nothing there for people to travel to as the area hadn't been redeveloped. The big developments in that area north of Liverpool Street and Middlesex Street hadn't taken place.

 

[IanD]

Whatever happened to the "local fares" for the Dalston to Wapping section? These are charged at via zone 1 rates if passing through Shoreditch High Street.

 

[jbg]

The station in zone 2 was in a different location.

Yes, even closer to the City than the current one.

 

[Hadders]

why was it in zone 2 originally I wonder.

It was effectively on the stub of a branch line with an infrequent service. The Overground has bought a massive increase in passenger numbers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Whatever happened to the "local fares" for the Dalston to Wapping section? These are charged at via zone 1 rates if passing through Shoreditch High Street.

Weren't the initial 'local fares' a bit more limited than that?

I remember the explanations of some local fares being charged differently, but have no idea if it was end-dated...

 

[jbg]

Weren't the initial 'local fares' a bit more limited than that?

I remember the explanations of some local fares being charged differently, but have no idea if it was end-dated...

So, another improvement detrimental to "local" journeys.

 

[greatkingrat]

The Oyster fares seem a bit odd. From Shoreditch High Street the cost is

Whitechapel / Shadwell / Wapping - 2.40 peak, 2.30 off peak
Hoxton / Haggerston / Dalston Jn - 2.40 anytime
Rotherhithe / Canada Water / Surrey Quays / New Cross - 2.80 peak, 2.30 off peak
New Cross Gate / Canonbury / Highbury - 2.90 peak, 2.40 off peak (the normal zone 1+2 fare)

So if the Single Fare Finder is correct, there are still some special fares in operation, but they seem rather inconsistently applied.

 

[Clip]

why was it in zone 2 originally I wonder.

Didnt it used to have a terrible service? so with increased service and patronage it makes sense.

Was an odd part of the Met wasnt it? And I certainly remember some sort of bus service on maps a while back even before conversion to LO or have I imagined that?

 

[bb21]

Didnt it used to have a terrible service? so with increased service and patronage it makes sense.

Was an odd part of the Met wasnt it? And I certainly remember some sort of bus service on maps a while back even before conversion to LO or have I imagined that?

Only a very limited service operated to Shoreditch as part of the Met (latterly East London Line).

During the conversion to LO, the line was closed for realignment and a few replacement bus routes operated instead.

 

[jbg]

Didnt it used to have a terrible service? so with increased service and patronage it makes sense.

Was an odd part of the Met wasnt it? And I certainly remember some sort of bus service on maps a while back even before conversion to LO or have I imagined that?

The point is, you can only be on one train at a time, so the excuse that there are more trains is moot.

Nowhere else does an increase in choice make a product more expensive.

 

[bb21]

The point is, you can only be on one train at a time, so the excuse that there are more trains is moot.

Nonsense.

More trains means it is much more convenient and has far more scope for revenue abstraction.

Investment in more frequent services also costs money. There is nothing wrong to have those benefiting directly to contribute towards that investment.

 

[jbg]

Nonsense.

Really? How many trains can you manage to be on at the same time?

More trains means it is much more convenient and has far more scope for revenue abstraction.

Surely as there are more people on the services, then there would be more money taken, so fares should be in fact lower.

Investment in more frequent services also costs money. There is nothing wrong to have those benefiting directly to contribute towards that investment.

Again, you can't be in two places at once.

Where else does the increase in choice cause a rise in unit price?

 

[bb21]

Really? How many trains can you manage to be on at the same time?

You have some very strange logic. More trains means it is now a turn-up-and-go service, which was previously only during peak times (and then only every 20 minutes) and no service at all off peak. With that comes the huge convenience brought about by a regular rail service. There is no longer a need to consult the timetable and plan one's travels around that.

No matter how much you want to emphasise the fact that a person can only be on one train at the same time, there is no denying that it is now much more convenient and the area much better connected.

Surely as there are more people on the services, then there would be more money taken, so fares should be in fact lower.

Higher operating costs may or may not be offset by the increase in fares income, especially given the low level of off-peak fares charged by TfL and the various concessions offered.

In any case, you have already been told that it was a condition for the DfT's contribution in rebuilding the East London Line that there was no revenue abstraction from services into London Bridge. Without that, you can expect another rise to fares on TfL services to pay for the shortfall in investment in the improvement works.

Again, you can't be in two places at once.

Only relevant in your mind.

Where else does the increase in choice cause a rise in unit price?

You simply cannot look at these issues in isolation as already explained to you by various people.

In any case, now you have a higher quality product offering much better connectivity. There is nothing wrong to ask end users to contribute towards the investment. Money does not fall out of the sky. I guess you would have preferred East London Line to remain at 20-minute frequencies and peak hours only. :roll:

 

[yorkie]

As already quoted, arguably the old Shoreditch being in Zone 2 was a fudge because it was the dead end of a short, infrequent line.

There is no good reason for the new station on the vastly improved through route to be in anything other than the appropriate zone for its geographic location, which is Zone 1.