Shortest Route Rule

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RJ

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Can anyone quote any text which would be useful in answering the following questions please?

1.) When calculating the shortest route, can you include walks? If so, is any walk permitted, or is it just walks between group stations shown in the NRG, or just walks shown in the eNRT?

i.e I'm travelling between Alexandra Palace and Gospel Oak. What is the official shortest route? Is it via Highbury and Islington (no walk) or the Harringay stations (shown in the eNRT) which is shorter assuming the walk to be 0 miles.

2.) If travelling late at night on a ticket and the last part of the journey cannot be completed, does the mileage for that route still count?

i.e If travelling from Brighton to Willesden Junction. Say, for argument's sake, the shortest route is via Kensington Olympia. If I leave Brighton so late that I can't use the WLL and need to continue on via London, is the WLL still the shortest route for the journey, or does the shortest route now become via London, because that's the only option at that time of night?

In other words, does the shortest route shift during the day according to service provision?
 
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MarkyMarkD

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I thought that other posts on this subject were pretty clear that shortest route certainly does not change dependent on service provision at the time of travel. It is rather less clear whether a single parliamentary service a week establishes a shortest route (some, like HHF, would say yes, whilst others think that is unreasonable).
 

Andrew Nelson

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I thought that other posts on this subject were pretty clear that shortest route certainly does not change dependent on service provision at the time of travel. It is rather less clear whether a single parliamentary service a week establishes a shortest route (some, like HHF, would say yes, whilst others think that is unreasonable).

That's rather confusing.
"shortest route certainly does not change dependent on service provision at the time of travel."

How can one make a journey on trains that aren't running on that day?

And if I want to go from Guide Bridge to stalybridge, can I only do it on a Friday, and never come back?
 

benk1342

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I'm travelling between Alexandra Palace and Gospel Oak. What is the official shortest route? Is it via Highbury and Islington (no walk) or the Harringay stations (shown in the eNRT) which is shorter assuming the walk to be 0 miles.

This doesn't answer your question, but for the return trip keep in mind that walking up the hill from Harringay Green Lanes (Overground) to Harringay (FCC) is a nightmare!
 

wintonian

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The shortest route is one in which a regular passenger service runs over.

the term regular is not defined but is taken to exuded engineering diversions and I would say 1 service a week is a regular service, so yes in theory it may be that a journey is only possible once a week.

don't forget that routes within 3 miles of the shortest are also allowed.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Walking, like the underground in London is zero mileage. Generally speaking walking is considered usable for stations that are reasonably close (probably a mile or so, but there is no definition).

The mileage from the origin of the ticket to the destination is used to determine the shortest route, so even if you can only make it halfway, the shortest route remains constant.

When determining permitted routes, you have three things to consider, the shortest route, direct trains and what the Routeing Guide allows. In the Routeing Guide are easements which, in most cases, provide an alternative route for parliamentary services (such as Guide Bridge to Stalybridge).

The shortest route is determined by the mileages in the National Rail Timetable and is for routes where there is scheduled passenger services (the word 'regular' is not used).
 

MarkyMarkD

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That's really clear, HHF. What about the classic question as to whether walks are mandatory as part of shortest routes? In other words, if there is a shortest route including a walk of (say) 25 miles, whilst the shortest route without requiring any walking is (say) 45 miles, which is the shortest route for route validity purposes? Obviously in some cases this can make an enormous difference.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Most 'walks' I can think of are under a mile and often have 'stns' at the end of the origin (eg Manchester Stns). In these cases it is the shortest route from all the stations that the ticket might be valid from.

However, a definitive answer is hard to give without knowing the situation.

An example previously discussed on the forum is Bradford Forster Square to New Pudsey. The shortest route by rail only is via Leeds, but the shortest route is actually to walk to Bradford Interchange then take train to New Pudsey. In this case the ticket is from Bradford Stations.
 

MarkyMarkD

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How about Box Hill to Shalford?

These share 2 common routeing points - Guildford and Dorking - so the shortest route (or one less than 3 miles longer) should be the only permitted routes (I think).

The Dorking route requires a walk between Dorking and Dorking Deepdene, and is a lot shorter - around 6 miles shorter - than the Guildford route which does not require a walk.

Both routes are permitted by National Rail's website for the same fare despite the 6 mile differential in distance.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I don't know the area particularly and I really don't have time to go through the list of easements tonight, but two theories spring to mind.

1) There may be an easement.

2) Dorking to Dorking Deepdene might not be an ideal walking route (in the same way that Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill is not ideal).
 

yorkie

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Can anyone quote any text which would be useful in answering the following questions please?

1.) When calculating the shortest route, can you include walks? If so, is any walk permitted, or is it just walks between group stations shown in the NRG, or just walks shown in the eNRT?
Certainly not "any" walk but walks between recognised interchanges (ATOC do not appear to have published information in the public domain about all "official" interchanges, but the list has been posted on this forum previously)
i.e I'm travelling between Alexandra Palace and Gospel Oak. What is the official shortest route? Is it via Highbury and Islington (no walk) or the Harringay stations (shown in the eNRT) which is shorter assuming the walk to be 0 miles.
Unfortunately, if we ask ATOC what they think the rule will be, they will define it in a way that is least favourable to the customer.

In my opinion it should be the route that does not require a walk.

Any route that is no greater than 3 miles longer is also valid, that may of course include a route that is shorter.

For example the "shortest route" from Preston to Hellifield is not via Clitheroe, but the route via Clitheroe has to additionally be valid on the basis that it is shorter than the shortest route with a regular service.

2.) If travelling late at night on a ticket and the last part of the journey cannot be completed, does the mileage for that route still count?

i.e If travelling from Brighton to Willesden Junction. Say, for argument's sake, the shortest route is via Kensington Olympia. If I leave Brighton so late that I can't use the WLL and need to continue on via London, is the WLL still the shortest route for the journey, or does the shortest route now become via London, because that's the only option at that time of night?

In other words, does the shortest route shift during the day according to service provision?
No, it doesn't. It would be good if it did, but that would be taking it a bit too far.

There is a case to say that if there is no service for an entire day (e.g. Sundays) then for that day the shortest alternative route should additionally be valid, but I don't think that ATOC would officially let us have that concession either, but common sense would prevail in most cases I'm sure!
 

MarkyMarkD

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In response to HHF, I don't think there's a relevant easement. There is
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Customers from Ashstead, Leatherhead or Bookham travelling to Ash or beyond may travel via Guildford. This easement applies in both directions.
but (a) Box Hill isn't one of the three "from" stations named and (b) Shalford isn't "Ash or beyond".

Dorking to Dorking Deepdene is a 450 yd walk and is a recognised walking connection on National Rail's website.
 

yorkie

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How about Box Hill to Shalford?

These share 2 common routeing points - Guildford and Dorking - so the shortest route (or one less than 3 miles longer) should be the only permitted routes (I think).

The Dorking route requires a walk between Dorking and Dorking Deepdene, and is a lot shorter - around 6 miles shorter - than the Guildford route which does not require a walk.

Both routes are permitted by National Rail's website for the same fare despite the 6 mile differential in distance.
Clearly the route that avoids a walk should, by rights, be considered to be the shortest.

The shortest route is not well defined, but I am not particularly keen for it to be well defined, because I do not trust ATOC to define it in a way that is not detrimental toward customers, nor do I trust DfT to refuse permission for such a proposal.

Admittedly, the DfT do appear to refuse some of ATOCs more bonkers ideas, but they still do approve far too many for my liking. :|
 

34D

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How can one make a journey on trains that aren't running on that day?

Precisely. On a sunday, there are no trains between Featherstone and Streethouse, nor between Drayton Park and Essex Road (the first two examples that popped into my head). Instead of being entitled to taxis and to use ludicriously long routes, there is no service (even if a machine or website will sell a ticket.
 

hairyhandedfool

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In response to HHF, I don't think there's a relevant easement. There is .... but (a) Box Hill isn't one of the three "from" stations named and (b) Shalford isn't "Ash or beyond".

Dorking to Dorking Deepdene is a 450 yd walk and is a recognised walking connection on National Rail's website.

In that case I can't tell you, why not ask NRES.......:lol:
 

embers25

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Clearly the route that avoids a walk should, by rights, be considered to be the shortest.

:|

The extreme example is Pinhoe to Weymouth which is only permitted Via Yeovil Junction-Yeovil Pen Mill despite there being several miles between them. Yes there is a bus at some times but it has to be paid for.
 

John @ home

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The extreme example is Pinhoe to Weymouth which is only permitted Via Yeovil Junction-Yeovil Pen Mill despite there being several miles between them.
Why do you believe that Pinhoe - Weymouth via Castle Cary is not a Permitted Route? It's the shortest route wholly by rail, and East Coast will sell a ticket by that route at the route ANY PERMITTED price.
Valid Routes from Pinhoe [PIN] to Weymouth [WEY]:
  1. Direct trains from Pinhoe to Weymouth
    (There are none in the current timetable.)
    .
  2. Shortest Route: 101 miles
    • Pinhoe
    • Exeter Central
    • Exeter St David's
    • Tiverton Parkway
    • Castle Cary
    • Yeovil Pen Mill
    • Thornford
    • Yetminster
    • Chetnole
    • Maiden Newton
    • Dorchester West
    • Upwey
    • Weymouth
    .
  3. Any route not more than 3 miles longer than Shortest Route
    (This includes Pinhoe - Honiton - Yeovil Jn (walk) Yeovil Pen Mill - Thornford - Weymouth: 73.5 miles.)
    .
  4. Fares Check
    Pinhoe has Routeing Points (RPs) EXETER GROUP and Salisbury.
    Weymouth is a member of WEYMOUTH GROUP.

    Pinhoe - Weymouth route ANY PERMITTED SDS £17.60

    EXETER CENTRAL - Weymouth route YEOVIL WESTBURY SOS £32.50
    EXETER CENTRAL - Weymouth route YEOVIL WESTBURY SVS £33.00 ! Q8
    EXETER CENTRAL - Weymouth route WESTBRY SALISBRY SOS £49.50
    EXETER CENTRAL - Weymouth route THORNFRD HONITON SOS £24.90
    EXETER ST DAVIDS, EXETER ST THOMAS and ST JAMES PARK EXE fares are the same as EXETER CENTRAL.
    These fares are all higher than Pinhoe - Weymouth route ANY PERMITTED, so EXETER GROUP is not an appropriate RP for this journey.

    Salisbury - Weymouth route ANY PERMITTED SDS £30.30
    This fare is higher than Pinhoe - Weymouth route ANY PERMITTED, so EXETER GROUP is not an appropriate RP for this journey.

    Therefore there are no mapped routes for this journey.
Note that a Exeter - Weymouth route Thornford Honiton ticket does indeed require a "walk" Yeovil Jn - Yeovil Pen Mill.
 
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Andrew Nelson

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Manchester - Huddersfield - Halifax, shorter route, but more expensive than Manchester - Halifax direct?
 

embers25

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Why do you believe that Pinhoe - Weymouth via Castle Cary is not a Permitted Route? It's the shortest route wholly by rail, and East Coast will sell a ticket by that route at the route ANY PERMITTED price.
Note that a Exeter - Weymouth route Thornford Honiton ticket does indeed require a "walk" Yeovil Jn - Yeovil Pen Mill.

I agree by shortest route rules alone it is valid BUT its mapped route last time I checked was via the two Yeovils. Also given this is a route on other tickets despite the bus this is by definition the shortest route. I agree its not by rail all the way but in this case the bus you pay for forms the shortest route.
 

John @ home

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its mapped route last time I checked was via the two Yeovils.
There are no mapped routes for a Pinhoe - Weymouth journey. See my calculation in post #17 above.
I agree by shortest route rules alone it is valid
Good.
Also given this is a route on other tickets despite the bus this is by definition the shortest route.
I don't understand this sentence.

There are some journeys where it is necessary to "walk" between stations in order to comply with the restriction printed in the Route field on the ticket. One example is Watford Jn - Luton route Via St Albans Ab. Another example is Exeter - Weymouth route Thornfrd Honiton.

But Pinhoe - Weymouth is not one of these journeys. The ticket is routed Any Permitted. The passenger is therefore allowed to travel by the shortest route wholly by rail, which is via Castle Cary.
 
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