Should ÖBB consider reviving other Night Trains cancelled by DB/SBB while expanding night train services

[Stephen Lee]

With the success of ÖBB nightjet, even some discontinued night train connections were revived, like Amsterdam - Zurich/Wien/Innsbruck or Berlin/Wien - Brussels/Paris
However, some discontinued night train connections (including those in the plan of Nightjet Expansion like Zurich-Rome, Zurich-Barcelona）as well as sleeper trains to Copenhagen and EN Jan Kiepura were still not restored.
Therefore, just a question to ask. Should Zurich-Rome/Barcelona, sleeper trains to Copenhagen and EN Jan Kiepura be restored? And should EC Hortobagy and EN Dacia extend to Munich while at the same time extend Hortobagy to Mukachevo

 

[popeter45]

with Paris to Berlin back one route i would like to see return is Paris-Hamburg as well as Amsterdam-Copenhagen

 

[30907]

With the success of ÖBB nightjet, even some discontinued night train connections were revived, like Amsterdam - Zurich/Wien/Innsbruck or Berlin/Wien - Brussels/Paris
However, some discontinued night train connections (including those in the plan of Nightjet Expansion like Zurich-Rome, Zurich-Barcelona）as well as sleeper trains to Copenhagen and EN Jan Kiepura were still not restored.
Therefore, just a question to ask.

That 's 6 questions not 1!

Should Zurich-Rome/Barcelona,

Both yes, as planned.

sleeper trains to Copenhagen and EN Jan Kiepura be restored?

Both doubtful. The Stockholm trains and European Sleeper will compete and so far there's no sign of the planned train to Koeln/Brussels.

And should EC Hortobagy and EN Dacia extend to Munich

No, because there is not enough time for turnround, even if there are paths West of Vienna.

while at the same time extend Hortobagy to Mukachevo

It would arrive/depart in the middle of the night and require a gauge change...

(For the majority of us who don't know Central Europe: this is the Vienna-Kyiv overnight service as far as the Ukranian frontier.)

 

[daodao]

And should EC Hortobagy and EN Dacia extend to Munich while at the same time extend Hortobagy to Mukachevo

How easy would it be to extend West European international trains to Mukachevo, given that Ukrainian main line railways are currently a wider gauge (5 ft, 1520 mm), apart from any surviving narrow gauge (750 mm) lines?

 

[87015]

How easy would it be to extend West European international trains to Mukachevo, given that Ukrainian main line railways are currently a wider gauge (5 ft, 1520 mm), apart from any surviving narrow gauge (750 mm) lines?

Its dual gauge Chop-Mukachevo, both Hungarians and Slovaks have through workings.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Both doubtful. The Stockholm trains and European Sleeper will compete and so far there's no sign of the planned train to Koeln/Brussels.

RDC and Snalltaget operates the Stockholm trains
What about extend Nightjet Hamburg-Zurich/Wien/Innsbruck to Copenhagen/Malmö

 

[Austriantrain]

With the success of ÖBB nightjet, even some discontinued night train connections were revived, like Amsterdam - Zurich/Wien/Innsbruck or Berlin/Wien - Brussels/Paris
However, some discontinued night train connections (including those in the plan of Nightjet Expansion like Zurich-Rome, Zurich-Barcelona）as well as sleeper trains to Copenhagen and EN Jan Kiepura were still not restored.
Therefore, just a question to ask. Should Zurich-Rome/Barcelona, sleeper trains to Copenhagen and EN Jan Kiepura be restored? And should EC Hortobagy and EN Dacia extend to Munich while at the same time extend Hortobagy to Mukachevo

Zurich - Italy is on the „wish list“, lets see if it comes to that. Anyway, significant expansion is only possible once all the new NJ sets are in service.

Experience has proven that filling trains is not a problem (incidentally, just read that the Stockholm- Hamburg service is also nearly always sold out). But they still need to earn their money.

 

[popeter45]

RDC and Snalltaget operates the Stockholm trains
What about extend Nightjet Hamburg-Zurich/Wien/Innsbruck to Copenhagen/Malmö

that would add 5 hours each way pushing arrival in copenhagen to 2pm and with a return setting off by 3pm, far too short of a turn around time

 

[Stephen Lee]

that would add 5 hours each way pushing arrival in copenhagen to 2pm and with a return setting off by 3pm, far too short of a turn around time

What if Fehmarn belt fixed link opens?

 

[43096]

RDC and Snalltaget operates the Stockholm trains

Snälltåget operate one service, but I thought the other was an SJ EuroNight train - just that they have contracted operation within Germany to RDC. The SJ service has locomotive changes at Padborg and Malmö, whereas the Snälltåget train has one change of loco (at Padborg).

 

[Cheshire Scot]

with Paris to Berlin back one route i would like to see return is Paris-Hamburg as well as Amsterdam-Copenhagen

Paris - Hamburg perhaps paired with Brussels - Hamburg.

Frankfurt to Milan, possibly Venice might be one to consider.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Zurich - Italy is on the „wish list“, lets see if it comes to that. Anyway, significant expansion is only possible once all the new NJ sets are in service.

Experience has proven that filling trains is not a problem (incidentally, just read that the Stockholm- Hamburg service is also nearly always sold out). But they still need to earn their money.

I think the overnight IC between Hamburg and Copenhagen can be extended to Berlin - Stockholm and with Couchette and sleeping coaches attached

 

[StephenHunter]

Main issue for any Nightjet expansion is carriage availability; the New Generation stuff is coming, but it's going on existing routes first to free up the Comfortlines for expansion.

 

[andersj]

DSB and ÖBB had formal conversations in 2020 because of the tendering of a Malmö-Köln/Bruxelles night train service. But ultimately no one made a bid on that service. SJ only made a bid for Stockholm-Hamburg and won.

 

[Stephen Lee]

DSB and ÖBB had formal conversations in 2020 because of the tendering of a Malmö-Köln/Bruxelles night train service. But ultimately no one made a bid on that service. SJ only made a bid for Stockholm-Hamburg and won.

I think the bid should be re-tendered since the main cause of the failure of tender was due to COVID-19 pandemic.
On the other hand, In October 2019, as a stopgap measure, ÖBB announced its intention to lease sleeping and couchette cars, permitting additional Nightjet services to be operated without having to wait for the delivery of its outstanding Siemens order. Specifically, two options were evaluated; the hiring of four sleeping and four couchette cars between 2020 and 2023 that can operate in Germany, Denmark and Sweden; or eight sleeping cars and eight couchette cars between 2021 and 2022 with approval for operation in Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and the Czech Republic. But none of the options were successful

 

[MontyP]

Was there ever a sleeper / overnight train from Paris through Zurich and then over the Arlberg towards Innsbruck? If so, a reinstatement would be very handy for my ski trips!

 

[dazzler]

Was there ever a sleeper / overnight train from Paris through Zurich and then over the Arlberg towards Innsbruck? If so, a reinstatement would be very handy for my ski trips!

Checking back through the train formations on the excellent vagonweb.cz site for 1990/91 (picked at random) shows a through Paris Est to Innsbruck night train with sleeping cars and couchettes. Train numbers D468/D469 in that timetable. There were certainly through couchettes from Calais Maritime to Innsbruck in 1973, as I used them!

 

[StephenHunter]

Checking back through the train formations on the excellent vagonweb.cz site for 1990/91 (picked at random) shows a through Paris Est to Innsbruck night train with sleeping cars and couchettes. Train numbers D468/D469 in that timetable. There were certainly through couchettes from Calais Maritime to Innsbruck in 1973, as I used them!

Those numbers were used for the former Orient Express in its final years. The Paris-Vienna Nightjet reuses those numbers.

 

[30907]

On the other hand, In October 2019, as a stopgap measure, ÖBB announced its intention to lease sleeping and couchette cars, permitting additional Nightjet services to be operated without having to wait for the delivery of its outstanding Siemens order. Specifically, two options were evaluated; the hiring of four sleeping and four couchette cars between 2020 and 2023 that can operate in Germany, Denmark and Sweden; or eight sleeping cars and eight couchette cars between 2021 and 2022 with approval for operation in Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and the Czech Republic. But none of the options were successful

I thought OeBB were using hired-in cars for the Zürich-Amsterdam train? But sleepers are definitely an owner's market ATM as demand exceeds supply.

Checking back through the train formations on the excellent vagonweb.cz site for 1990/91 (picked at random) shows a through Paris Est to Innsbruck night train with sleeping cars and couchettes. Train numbers D468/D469 in that timetable. There were certainly through couchettes from Calais Maritime to Innsbruck in 1973, as I used them!

Took a fair time by modern standards, the route to/via Innsbruck being exceedingly slow in places.

 

[Stephen Lee]

I thought OeBB were using hired-in cars for the Zürich-Amsterdam train? But sleepers are definitely an owner's market ATM as demand exceeds supply.

Sleepers and couchettes are hired from RDC but the seating cars are from DB/SBB. However, since the time table change, the DB seating cars were replaced by SBB EC wagons, is it due to DB’s IC1 retirement?

 

[DanielB]

Sleepers and couchettes are hired from RDC but the seating cars are from DB/SBB. However, since the time table change, the DB seating cars were replaced by SBB EC wagons, is it due to DB’s IC1 retirement?

According to Vagonweb.cz all seating cars now continue to Zürich where the DB-ones previously were left behind at Basel SBB. Maybe that's a reason?

 

[JonasB]

Having the night trains return to Copenhagen would be great!

Both doubtful. The Stockholm trains and European Sleeper will compete and so far there's no sign of the planned train to Koeln/Brussels.

Not really, the Stockholm-Germany night trains stop in the Copenhagen area very late/early and not at the central station. So there is not a lot of competition. And if it where, the Stockholm trains are often sold out so there is room for a bit more capacity.

Snälltåget operate one service, but I thought the other was an SJ EuroNight train - just that they have contracted operation within Germany to RDC.

Correct.

I think the bid should be re-tendered since the main cause of the failure of tender was due to COVID-19 pandemic.

The main reason for the failure was probably lack of sleeper trains AFAIK. Having it re-tendered would be great, but not likely to happen with the new Swedish government.

 

[dazzler]

Took a fair time by modern standards, the route to/via Innsbruck being exceedingly slow in places.

Aye, we left Calais Maritime round about mid/late afternoon, loco change at Calais Ville (diesel->electric) reversal at Lille Flandres, into Basel SNCF at sparrow fart, Innsbruck coach shunted round every platform in Basel SNCF and SBB (some of them twice!) as the inward train was shunted about into separate destinations, off to Zurich (eventually) for a reversal, another reversal at Buchs, then over the Arlberg to arrive in Innsbruck around 20 hours later. Not quick, but for BR staff it was fairly inexpensive, certainly more so than flying.

 

[Krokodil]

Aye, we left Calais Maritime round about mid/late afternoon, loco change at Calais Ville (diesel->electric) reversal at Lille Flandres, into Basel SNCF at sparrow fart, Innsbruck coach shunted round every platform in Basel SNCF and SBB (some of them twice!) as the inward train was shunted about into separate destinations, off to Zurich (eventually) for a reversal, another reversal at Buchs, then over the Arlberg to arrive in Innsbruck around 20 hours later. Not quick, but for BR staff it was fairly inexpensive, certainly more so than flying.

Sounds like a BLS tour.

 

[30907]

Not really, the Stockholm-Germany night trains stop in the Copenhagen area very late/early and not at the central station. So there is not a lot of competition. And if it where, the Stockholm trains are often sold out so there is room for a bit more capacity.

Yes and no. I agree that stopping in the Copenhagen suburbs in the wee hours isn't good for the city, but when sleepers terminated at Copenhagen 10-20 years ago they were serving Sweden and Norway too.

Once both night trains are full-length (AIUI they aren't) and the Fehmarn crossing is open I can see opportunities - indeed with HH-Altona relocated Nightjet might decide to switch their northern terminus to Copenhagen...

Sounds like a BLS tour.

Not enough rare track

Or, BLS locos didn't run to Basel back then

 

[Stephen Lee]

The main reason for the failure was probably lack of sleeper trains AFAIK. Having it re-tendered would be great, but not likely to happen with the new Swedish government.

Why?
Perhaps I think the best time to re-tender will be when Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link was opened?

 

[JonasB]

Yes and no. I agree that stopping in the Copenhagen suburbs in the wee hours isn't good for the city, but when sleepers terminated at Copenhagen 10-20 years ago they were serving Sweden and Norway too.

So they did, but 30 years ago there were night trains to Copenhagen as well as night trains from Hamburg to both Stockholm and Oslo. So there can certainly be demand for both now. Sjælland and Skåne combined have 3.8 million inhabitants, that market is more or less unserved by night trains at the moment.

Why?

The night trains from Sweden to the continent was an idea from the Green party, and when the Social democrats formed a coalition government with the Greens, it became government policy. But after the 2022 election we now have a conservative government with support from the Sweden democrats. Railways and public transportation is not high on their agenda. One of the first large decisions they made was to cancel the plans for a high speed rail-network in southern Sweden, and to cut back on first three lines.

 

[AHCT]

Personally I don't know how things are deeper into Central Europe but the two Paris routes have been frequently affected by fairly serious reliability issues So it may be better I think for OBB to improve reliability before expanding further. (Tthat said the service reliability issues are also omnispresent with SNCF domestic sleepers so I'm not too sure how much of an "OBB issue" it is).

 

[30907]

So they did, but 30 years ago there were night trains to Copenhagen as well as night trains from Hamburg to both Stockholm and Oslo.

Fair point, and I should have remembered.

BTW you mentioned "lack of sleeper trains" in post #22 - I presume you mean "lack of vehicles" which is certainly a problem for new services.

 

[AHCT]

lack of vehicles

OBB seems to have ordered new coaches - although different sources give different figures, all seem to suggest that a fairly significant quantity has been ordered. I've got no idea if each of those coaches are already "accounted for" by OBB's route planning or if some extra capacity will be left over after that for new routes.

233 Coaches : https://back-on-track.eu/fr/la-nouvelle-generation-de-nightjet/
330 coaches: https://www.railtech.com/rolling-st...racks-as-timetable-receives-update/?gdpr=deny
33 fixed formation sets (33 x 7= 231): https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm, https://www.globalrailwayreview.com...ew-generation-a-new-era-in-night-time-travel/