Should ÖBB consider reviving other Night Trains cancelled by DB/SBB while expanding night train services

[popeter45]

if/when OBB have enough stock another set of routes i would like to see are Lille centric ones to serve the UK market better by allowing later eurostar departures
currently to catch one of the paris departures you need to catch the 14:30 service from St pancras or 15:04 for brussels departures, a Lille service to Berlin, Hamburg, Zurich and Munich all via Cologne timed to allow connection from the last 19:34 st pancras to Lille service arriving there at 22:00 could help alot

 

[43096]

330 coaches: https://www.railtech.com/rolling-st...racks-as-timetable-receives-update/?gdpr=deny

That is very clearly stating 330 new trains, not coaches, of which 33 are the new NightJet sets.

33 fixed formation sets (33 x 7= 231): https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm, https://www.globalrailwayreview.com...ew-generation-a-new-era-in-night-time-travel/

Is the correct answer on the NightJet order.

 

[30907]

OBB seems to have ordered new coaches - although different sources give different figures, all seem to suggest that a fairly significant quantity has been ordered. I've got no idea if each of those coaches are already "accounted for" by OBB's route planning or if some extra capacity will be left over after that for new routes.

33 fixed formation sets (33 x 7= 231): https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm,

I'm not sure of the timescale for the whole 33x7, but that certainly allows for growth, but also the replacement of life-expired older stock (including the double deck sleepers, sadly). With the Paris/Brussels trains going nightly in the autumn, I reckon the requirement is for 42 half-trains made up of OeBB stock, going up to 46 with services from Switzerland.

...another set of routes i would like to see are Lille centric ones to serve the UK market better by allowing later eurostar departures. currently to catch one of the paris departures you need to catch the 14:30 service from St pancras or 15:04 for brussels departures, a Lille service to Berlin, Hamburg, Zurich and Munich all via Cologne timed to allow connection from the last 19:34 st pancras to Lille service arriving there at 22:00 could help alot

If you are going via Cologne, there's no great advantage in starting from Lille rather than Brussels, and I would opt for a 2130 departure connecting off the last-but-one ES, which would be late enough for most people). This means you could serve Cologne at a tolerable hour.
(You could even start back from Paris, avoiding the reversal at Lille.)

 

[StephenHunter]

I think the main issue at the moment is factory space for construction of new carriages, with the logistics issues due to international conflict also slowing things down.

 

[JonasB]

BTW you mentioned "lack of sleeper trains" in post #22 - I presume you mean "lack of vehicles" which is certainly a problem for new services.

Correct. That is most likely the limiting factor today.

OBB seems to have ordered new coaches - although different sources give different figures, all seem to suggest that a fairly significant quantity has been ordered. I've got no idea if each of those coaches are already "accounted for" by OBB's route planning or if some extra capacity will be left over after that for new routes.

233 Coaches : https://back-on-track.eu/fr/la-nouvelle-generation-de-nightjet/
330 coaches: https://www.railtech.com/rolling-st...racks-as-timetable-receives-update/?gdpr=deny
33 fixed formation sets (33 x 7= 231): https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm, https://www.globalrailwayreview.com...ew-generation-a-new-era-in-night-time-travel/

The correct number is 33 fixed formation Nightjet trains made up of seven coaches each. But they have also ordered new Railjets, hence the number 330 showing up. I'm sure they have plans for them, but maybe not set in stone yet.

 

[popeter45]

If you are going via Cologne, there's no great advantage in starting from Lille rather than Brussels, and I would opt for a 2130 departure connecting off the last-but-one ES, which would be late enough for most people). This means you could serve Cologne at a tolerable hour.
(You could even start back from Paris, avoiding the reversal at Lille.)

that would still intail a 5pm departure from london not including boarder checks so realisticly 3:30-4pm , and 2 seprate sleeper departures to same places from Brussels would get messy

 

[Austriantrain]

The correct number is 33 fixed formation Nightjet trains made up of seven coaches each. But they have also ordered new Railjets, hence the number 330 showing up. I'm sure they have plans for them, but maybe not set in stone yet.

The number 330 includes all new stock ordered, mostly for local and regional services. So that’s the NJ and RJ2 sets, a large number of Stadler KISS, Stadler BEMU and Siemens Mireo.

 

[30907]

that would still intail a 5pm departure from london not including boarder checks so realisticly 3:30-4pm , and 2 seprate sleeper departures to same places from Brussels would get messy

1804 from London is what I had in mind. It would make sense to run the existing Vienna/Berlin service in the later path anyway (from Paris as well): it would give a rather late arrival in Vienna but be better for Munich/Salzburg.

 

[johnnydoe]

I can't see ÖBB launching any night trains that don't have a start or end point in Austria, Germany or Switzerland for the foreseeable future.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I can't see ÖBB launching any night trains that don't have a start or end point in Austria, Germany or Switzerland for the foreseeable future.

Noting the above and therefore outwith the OBB remit (and digressing from the core subject), Paris to Italy used to be a very strong market with four or five mainly lengthy trains running each night- plus the Flandres Riviera from Amsterdam/Brussels/Calais/Lille to Nice and Ventimiglia, perhaps on the radar of SNCF and/or Trenitalia.
The British market perhaps not strong enough to start trains (or portions) out of Gare du Nord for ease of Eurostar connections but we can but hope.

 

[Krokodil]

Noting the above and therefore outwith the OBB remit (and digressing from the core subject), Paris to Italy used to be a very strong market with four or five mainly lengthy trains running each night- plus the Flandres Riviera from Amsterdam/Brussels/Calais/Lille to Nice and Ventimiglia, perhaps on the radar of SNCF and/or Trenitalia.
The British market perhaps not strong enough to start trains (or portions) out of Gare du Nord for ease of Eurostar connections but we can but hope.

I heard a few things about the Thello sleepers but they were better than nothing!

 

[Jealgu]

We can wish for all kinds of new nj connections, but it all depends on the availibility of rolling stock. Of course there are new trains, but how much extra capacity do we have? 33 new nightjets are coming within the next few years, so lets do an excersise to see how much capacity there is for extra connection. Because some need to be kept in reserve I expect that 33 trains means that there can be 12 or 13 daily connections covered with the new trains.

Of course there are already new connections from Paris and Brussels this year. paris/brussels - Berlin is added, later this year to a daily connection. So far these connections are run with two sleeper cars, instead of one for most connections with traditional stock, so (if we consider sleeping cars, not couchettes) effectively this means four extra connection are added. Making Paris/Brussels - Wien daily, both with two sleepers, means one full connection extra. So in total 5 connections will have been added with these connections by end of year.

Amsterdam - Zurich is currently running with rented stock, that is absolutely not reliable (most of the time at least one sleeper car seems to be missing). It seems likely that OBB want to replace this. You would need to sleeping cars to cover both the Basel and Zurich part. So that is two connections extra, and seven in total.

The double decker coaches might be removed from service, at least that is mentioned in this topic and I think I have read that before, but I cannot find a source. These connections are run with two sleeper cars, if they are replaced with two traditional sleeper cars that would imply four extra connections. If that is the case we are already at eleven.

With eleven extra connections covered with stock that is being freed up it seems there is a little bit of extra capacity left for new connections. However, currently nightjet seems to have some capacity issues. It is a known issue that coaches are sometimes missing, and customers getting downgraded. The NJ to Bregenz (see Vagonweb) currently misses coaches often or a sleeper car is replaced by a couchette. There is also one MUN coach from RDC in circulation, plus sometimes there is a Bahntouristik or Regiojet couchette in operation (according to VAgonweb this connection will use the new NJ from march onwards). So some of the extra capacity is likely to be used to add some extra reserve capacity to improve reliability.

If all of the above is accurate there is no room for extra connections left. Of course I am making some assumptions, so the situation might be a bit better, but there is definitely not enough capacity for all wishes that came forward in this topic. It is true that plans presented in the past inlcuded Zurich - Rome and Zurich - Barcelona, but these plans were depended on subsidy from some climate scheme in Switzerland, that did not ended up being passed. So these connections are not necessarily being planned.

 

[Austriantrain]

We can wish for all kinds of new nj connections, but it all depends on the availibility of rolling stock. Of course there are new trains, but how much extra capacity do we have? 33 new nightjets are coming within the next few years, so lets do an excersise to see how much capacity there is for extra connection. Because some need to be kept in reserve I expect that 33 trains means that there can be 12 or 13 daily connections covered with the new trains.

Of course there are already new connections from Paris and Brussels this year. paris/brussels - Berlin is added, later this year to a daily connection. So far these connections are run with two sleeper cars, instead of one for most connections with traditional stock, so (if we consider sleeping cars, not couchettes) effectively this means four extra connection are added. Making Paris/Brussels - Wien daily, both with two sleepers, means one full connection extra. So in total 5 connections will have been added with these connections by end of year.

Amsterdam - Zurich is currently running with rented stock, that is absolutely not reliable (most of the time at least one sleeper car seems to be missing). It seems likely that OBB want to replace this. You would need to sleeping cars to cover both the Basel and Zurich part. So that is two connections extra, and seven in total.

The double decker coaches might be removed from service, at least that is mentioned in this topic and I think I have read that before, but I cannot find a source. These connections are run with two sleeper cars, if they are replaced with two traditional sleeper cars that would imply four extra connections. If that is the case we are already at eleven.

With eleven extra connections covered with stock that is being freed up it seems there is a little bit of extra capacity left for new connections. However, currently nightjet seems to have some capacity issues. It is a known issue that coaches are sometimes missing, and customers getting downgraded. The NJ to Bregenz (see Vagonweb) currently misses coaches often or a sleeper car is replaced by a couchette. There is also one MUN coach from RDC in circulation, plus sometimes there is a Bahntouristik or Regiojet couchette in operation (according to VAgonweb this connection will use the new NJ from march onwards). So some of the extra capacity is likely to be used to add some extra reserve capacity to improve reliability.

If all of the above is accurate there is no room for extra connections left. Of course I am making some assumptions, so the situation might be a bit better, but there is definitely not enough capacity for all wishes that came forward in this topic. It is true that plans presented in the past inlcuded Zurich - Rome and Zurich - Barcelona, but these plans were depended on subsidy from some climate scheme in Switzerland, that did not ended up being passed. So these connections are not necessarily being planned.

I am quite certain that with 33 sets, more than 12 or 13 daily services (meaning 24 or 26 sets in service) can and will be run. 15 (30 sets) at least, maybe even 16, with a classic set cover.

 

[daglondon]

My expectation is that the number of NJ services will decrease over the coming years rather than increase. The NJ phenomenon has many of the hallmarks of a bubble - euphoric publicity coupled with overambitious expansion. Large parts of the potential market have already been excluded by the massive hikes in ticket prices. We are also seeing the growing reintroduction of border checks across Europe, which seriously inconvenience operations on night services and are detrimental to the passenger experience.

 

[Jealgu]

I am quite certain that with 33 sets, more than 12 or 13 daily services (meaning 24 or 26 sets in service) can and will be run. 15 (30 sets) at least, maybe even 16, with a classic set cover.

Could be true, but if classic sets are used for cover there still is not more capacity for extra lines. Not sure if that is the strategy I would pick, everytime a replacement by a classic set happens you will have dissapointed customers, especially those that booked a private minicabin and end up sharing a couchette. It is really not good for the general night train brand if such things happen too often.

 

[Austriantrain]

Could be true, but if classic sets are used for cover there still is not more capacity for extra lines. Not sure if that is the strategy I would pick, everytime a replacement by a classic set happens you will have dissapointed customers, especially those that booked a private minicabin and end up sharing a couchette. It is really not good for the general night train brand if such things happen too often.

32 might be a stretch, but 30 it certainly will be. It’s unavoidable, these trains are expensive and need to run to make money. It’s basically the same with all modern train fleets. No airline either would buy 33 planes and only roster 24 of them.

 

[43096]

It’s unavoidable, these trains are expensive and need to run to make money. It’s basically the same with all modern train fleets.

Unless you're SNCF...

 

[Austriantrain]

Unless you're SNCF...

True…

 

[30907]

Could be true, but if classic sets are used for cover there still is not more capacity for extra lines. Not sure if that is the strategy I would pick, everytime a replacement by a classic set happens you will have dissapointed customers, especially those that booked a private minicabin and end up sharing a couchette. It is really not good for the general night train brand if such things happen too often.

The classic stock (at least the Comfortline sleepers and the newest couchettes) will be needed to cover some of the basic service if my count upthread of 42-46 portions is correct.

Welcome to the forum BTW.

 

[Stephen Lee]

My expectation is that the number of NJ services will decrease over the coming years rather than increase. The NJ phenomenon has many of the hallmarks of a bubble - euphoric publicity coupled with overambitious expansion. Large parts of the potential market have already been excluded by the massive hikes in ticket prices. We are also seeing the growing reintroduction of border checks across Europe, which seriously inconvenience operations on night services and are detrimental to the passenger experience.

I don’t think so, especially under “Flight Shame”

 

[AHCT]

I don’t think so, especially under “Flight Shame”

NJ does feel in parts a little bit like a bubble - sleeper trains probably aren't, but logistically I'm not sure if it's particularly efficient for one company based out of Austria to manage the majority of Europe's long-distance sleepers alone, even on routes and involving stock that will head nowhere near Austria. Possibly some kind of joint stock undertaking (in the traditional railway sense) [not exactly unlike CIWL] might be more practical than a purely Austrian undertaking.

Edit: Another logistically potentially workable (but politically not so much) solution might be to create an EU-led central long-distance rail undertaking strategically managing pan-European routes - I know that there was a lot of publicity and trumpeting about "TEE 2.0" a few years back (https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anlage/K/tee-strategy.pdf?__blob=publicationFile) but it seems as if it didn't get very far beyond a few powerpoint slides.

 

[Stephen Lee]

NJ does feel in parts a little bit like a bubble - sleeper trains probably aren't, but logistically I'm not sure if it's particularly efficient for one company based out of Austria to manage the majority of Europe's long-distance sleepers alone, even on routes and involving stock that will head nowhere near Austria. Possibly some kind of joint stock undertaking (in the traditional railway sense) [not exactly unlike CIWL] might be more practical than a purely Austrian undertaking.

Edit: Another logistically potentially workable (but politically not so much) solution might be to create an EU-led central long-distance rail undertaking strategically managing pan-European routes - I know that there was a lot of publicity and trumpeting about "TEE 2.0" a few years back (https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anlage/K/tee-strategy.pdf?__blob=publicationFile) but it seems as if it didn't get very far beyond a few powerpoint slides.

There is a more detailed plan about TEE 2.0 as in below:

https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Documents/E/concept-tee-2-0.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

 

[Trainbike46]

NJ does feel in parts a little bit like a bubble - sleeper trains probably aren't, but logistically I'm not sure if it's particularly efficient for one company based out of Austria to manage the majority of Europe's long-distance sleepers alone, even on routes and involving stock that will head nowhere near Austria. Possibly some kind of joint stock undertaking (in the traditional railway sense) [not exactly unlike CIWL] might be more practical than a purely Austrian undertaking.

Edit: Another logistically potentially workable (but politically not so much) solution might be to create an EU-led central long-distance rail undertaking strategically managing pan-European routes - I know that there was a lot of publicity and trumpeting about "TEE 2.0" a few years back (https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anlage/K/tee-strategy.pdf?__blob=publicationFile) but it seems as if it didn't get very far beyond a few powerpoint slides.

While Nightjet is primarily an austrian operation, many of their routes are in cooperation with other operators; for example:
Amsterdam-Innsbrück/Wien in cooperation with NS (who provide traction on the Amsterdam-Köln leg, and all the way to Wien for some services)
Amsterdam-Basel/Zürich in cooperation with SBB (who provide seated coaches), NS (who provide traction on the leg from Amsterdam) and possibly DB?

A few years ago, when I was travelling on a Euronight from Münich to Ljubljana, the same train also included NightJet coaches destined for Venice (I think it was Venice), which suggests that collaboration with local railways is a part of how NightJet works

 

[DanielB]

Amsterdam-Innsbrück/Wien in cooperation with NS (who provide traction on the Amsterdam-Köln leg, and all the way to Wien for some services)
Amsterdam-Basel/Zürich in cooperation with SBB (who provide seated coaches), NS (who provide traction on the leg from Amsterdam) and possibly DB?

Since the new timetable and the introduction of the new Nightjet sets on the Hamburg portion of the NJ to Wien, the NS Vectron provides traction of the Innsbruck part till Munich.

For Amsterdam to Zürich, NS provides traction till Frankfurt.

 

[Birkonian]

I heard a few things about the Thello sleepers but they were better than nothing!

No they weren't! My worst ever train journey. It put me off sleepers for a few years.

 

[duesselmartin]

No they weren't! My worst ever train journey. It put me off sleepers for a few years.

what happened?

 

[Birkonian]

what happened?

Leaving Vnice an hour late and arriving in Paris 90 mins late was the least of our problems. The air-con in our compartment didn't work and the staff member said that no other compartments were available. The temperature gauge in the corridor indicated 36⁰. We were unable to sleep at all. All that opening the window did was provide excessive noise and little respite. I made numerous complaints over 4 months before they agreed to pay compensation. The service was discontinued and they never paid.

Leaving Vnice an hour late and arriving in Paris 90 mins late was the least of our problems. The air-con in our compartment didn't work and the staff member said that no other compartments were available. The temperature gauge in the corridor indicated 36⁰. We were unable to sleep at all. All that opening the window did was provide excessive noise and little respite. I made numerous complaints over 4 months before they agreed to pay compensation. The service was discontinued and they never paid.

I exaggerated. It was 34.7⁰.

Leaving Vnice an hour late and arriving in Paris 90 mins late was the least of our problems. The air-con in our compartment didn't work and the staff member said that no other compartments were available. The temperature gauge in the corridor indicated 36⁰. We were unable to sleep at all. All that opening the window did was provide excessive noise and little respite. I made numerous complaints over 4 months before they agreed to pay compensation. The service was discontinued and they never paid.


I exaggerated. It was 34.7⁰.

*Venice*

 

[Trainbike46]

Since the new timetable and the introduction of the new Nightjet sets on the Hamburg portion of the NJ to Wien, the NS Vectron provides traction of the Innsbruck part till Munich.

For Amsterdam to Zürich, NS provides traction till Frankfurt.

Thank you for the addition and correction!

 

[Krokodil]

A few years ago, when I was travelling on a Euronight from Münich to Ljubljana, the same train also included NightJet coaches destined for Venice (I think it was Venice), which suggests that collaboration with local railways is a part of how NightJet works

Likewise I've joined a HZ-run EN sleeper in Zagreb, and by the time that I'd woken up and was passing Sargans there was a NJ portion on the train, with an SBB loco on the front.

No they weren't! My worst ever train journey. It put me off sleepers for a few years.

Still better than nothing - and nothing is all we have now.

 

[duesselmartin]

@Birkonian. I had a similar situation on Caledonian Sleeper. I mentioned it to Steward, he said, don't worry, it will get colder when we are in Scotland. Not the answer I was hoping for.