Should a new Northern Network Railcard be introduced?

[30907]

Indeed. The old canard of South Eastern fares being cheaper doesnt bear scrutiny.

Take a day return from Eastbourne to Bognor, a distance of around fifty miles. This is showing at £20.20, and that's without Network railcard or groupsave etc.

Compare that to Leeds to Manchester, a distance of around 44 miles. The Northern stopper fare seems to be slightly more expensive per mile at £19.80 (and much more expensive if the Eastbourne passenger's using a Network Railcard).

The TPE fares something like £27 !

Yes, it would be fairer to say that principal NSE fares are more expensive.

Eastbourne to Bognor is hardly a significant flow, and a good bit slower than the Calder Valley, so not surprisingly the price per mile is low (Pevensey to Havant is the same price, even further for your money) - but Brighton to London Terminals, 51m at £38.80 offpeak is another matter - half as much again as the TPE.

 

[JonathanH]

Brighton to London Terminals, 51m at £38.80 offpeak is another matter - half as much again as the TPE.

The headline fare at the weekend from Brighton to London is £15.50 day return. A Network Railcard brings that down to £10.15.

 

[Wolfie]

On the specific issue of Merseyrail acceptance, my guess is it’ll probably be tied with Tyne & Wear Metro acceptance, either both will have it or neither will have it.

In which case why not the Manchester and Sheffield tram networks too?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, it would be fairer to say that principal NSE fares are more expensive.

Eastbourne to Bognor is hardly a significant flow, and a good bit slower than the Calder Valley, so not surprisingly the price per mile is low (Pevensey to Havant is the same price, even further for your money) - but Brighton to London Terminals, 51m at £38.80 offpeak is another matter - half as much again as the TPE.

The headline fare at the weekend from Brighton to London is £15.50 day return. A Network Railcard brings that down to £10.15.

Yes, looking at today there's a Brighton - London off-peak day return (operator specific I think) which compares very favourably to the north.

 

[DanNCL]

In which case why not the Manchester and Sheffield tram networks too?

Sheffield might have a compelling case on the Rotherham route but otherwise the tramways aren’t really the same. Merseyrail and Tyneside are both devolved operations that largely run on dedicated track but also have a couple of sections of shared track with the wider national network, indeed the ‘non-NR’ one actually has more mileage shared with other trains than the ‘NR’ one does. The difference between the two networks is increasingly vague, as soon as one gets it the other will be demanding it too. Which is why for a railcard like the one being suggested, it needs consistency which means either both networks take it or neither take it.

Metrolink doesn’t share any track with the national network so probably doesn’t have the same argument.

 

[Wolfie]

Sheffield might have a compelling case on the Rotherham route but otherwise the tramways aren’t really the same. Merseyrail and Tyneside are both devolved operations that largely run on dedicated track but also have a couple of sections of shared track with the wider national network, indeed the ‘non-NR’ one actually has more mileage shared with other trains than the ‘NR’ one does. The difference between the two networks is increasingly vague, as soon as one gets it the other will be demanding it too. Which is why for a railcard like the one being suggested, it needs consistency which means either both networks take it or neither take it.

Metrolink doesn’t share any track with the national network so probably doesn’t have the same argument.

The counter-argument is that the Network card gets off-peak discounts on Oyster on all TfL services.

 

[JonathanH]

The counter-argument is that the Network card gets off-peak discounts on Oyster on all TfL services.

It doesn't. Only 'gold card' holders of annual season tickets get off-peak discounts on Oyster on TfL services (not buses).

Other national railcards offer off-peak discounts on Oyster, but not Friends and Family or Two Together.

 

[Wolfie]

It doesn't. Only 'gold card' holders of annual season tickets get off-peak discounts on Oyster on TfL services (not buses).

My bad, you are correct, the discount is only on Travelcards.

 

[DanNCL]

The counter-argument is that the Network card gets off-peak discounts on Oyster on all TfL services.

Including the tram in Croydon?

 

[A0wen]

Some off peak fares in the South East are now substantially cheaper than fares in the North, even before railcard discounts are applied.

On a Saturday morning, the fares you quoted are

Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross £11.10 (£7.30 with railcard)

Congleton to Manchester £12.80

I think you picked up advance fares for your example.

Rechecked - the figures you're quoting are 'Super Off Peak' - the figure I've quoted is the standard Off Peak Day Return. The Super Off Peak is much more restrictive.

I don't think there are any 'advances' available Welwyn Gdn City to Kings X ?

 

[Craig1122]

I doubt the network railcard has been profitable for quite a while, just be to much negative publicity to get rid of it now

I believe the £13 minimum fare was a compromise introduced because some TOC's wanted to pull out of the Network Card completely. Unlike the core railcards the Network Card doesn't have any statutory protection.

 

[JonathanH]

Rechecked - the figures you're quoting are 'Super Off Peak' - the figure I've quoted is the standard Off Peak Day Return. The Super Off Peak is much more restrictive.

I agree, but the reality is that most leisure travel is at the weekend, and that is when the cheapest fares are available in the South East even though trains often have excess demand at that time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To give an example - Welwyn Garden City (WGC) is 20 miles to Kings Cross (KX), Congleton (CON) is 20 miles to Manchester Piccadilly (MAN) - off peak returns as follows:

WGC - KX £ 15.90
CON - MAN £ 11.80
So the same journey in the South East is 30% more than the one in the North.

Congleton to Manchester is 25.75 miles, isn't it?

On a Saturday morning, the fares you quoted are

Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross £11.10 (£7.30 with railcard)

Congleton to Manchester £12.80

I think you picked up advance fares for your example.

Concur with @JonathanH.

So, which of the above two journeys actually represents the better value?

 

[A0wen]

Congleton to Manchester is 25.75 miles, isn't it?


Concur with @JonathanH.

So, which of the above two journeys actually represents the better value?

22 miles according to TheTrainline

https://www.thetrainline.com/train-...:text=It takes an average of,22 miles (36 km).

But you have to buy the railcard (£30) and the £7.30 is only Super Off Peak - so its not a valid comparison because there isn't a Super Off Peak fare on the Congleton - Manchester line.

The Super Off Peak restriction on GN / Thameslink is arrive in London after 10.55am and no return between 16.29 and 19.02 on weekdays.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. The old canard of South Eastern fares being cheaper doesnt bear scrutiny.

Take a day return from Eastbourne to Bognor, a distance of around fifty miles. This is showing at £20.20, and that's without Network railcard or groupsave etc.

Compare that to Leeds to Manchester, a distance of around 44 miles. The Northern stopper fare seems to be slightly more expensive per mile at £19.80 (and much more expensive if the Eastbourne passenger's using a Network Railcard).

The TPE fares something like £27 !

As I'm sure you're aware to be comparable with Eastbourne-Bognor, Manchester to Leeds would need the following "improvements"
1. Withdrawal of all through services
2. Minimum of 2 changes at Huddersfield and Stalybridge with some journeys requiring a change at Bradford as well.
3. All trains to call at every station.
Minimum journey time of 2 hours.
The Sussex coastway services are more comparable to Merseyrail than anything else in the north, other than the fact they carry three times as many passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

As I'm sure you're aware to be comparable with Eastbourne-Bognor, Manchester to Leeds would need the following "improvements"
1. Withdrawal of all through services
2. Minimum of 2 changes at Huddersfield and Stalybridge with some journeys requiring a change at Bradford as well.
3. All trains to call at every station.
Minimum journey time of 2 hours.
The Sussex coastway services are more comparable to Merseyrail than anything else in the north, other than the fact they carry three times as many passengers.

If you read my post, the services at the equivalent fare are Northern stoppers. The TPE weighs in at around £27.

And last time I was there, there were certainly through trains at Eastbourne.

 

[Djgr]

The Sussex coastway services are more comparable to Merseyrail than anything else in the north, other than the fact they carry three times as many passengers

Can you expand on and evidence the statement "three times as many passengers"?

Sounds like apples and oranges.

 

[Neptune]

If you read my post, the services at the equivalent fare are Northern stoppers. The TPE weighs in at around £27.

And last time I was there, there were certainly through trains at Eastbourne.

Northern’s Leeds - Manchester service isn’t classed as a stopper via Bradford (class 1 services).

They are more classed as regional express trains. Certainly not stoppers.

The via Brighouse train is a class 2 but still has fast runs at either end of the route only taking around 10 minutes longer LDS - MCV than via Bradford. More of a regional stopper than the via Bradford’s but still nothing like the Coastway services.

 

[yorksrob]

Northern’s Leeds - Manchester service isn’t classed as a stopper via Bradford (class 1 services). The via Brighouse train is a class 2 but still has fast runs at either end of the route only taking around 10 minutes longer than via Bradford.

They still stop at a lot of stations compared to the express, which is the TPE.

 

[Neptune]

They still stop at a lot of stations compared to the express, which is the TPE.

Sorry I was just editing my post as you replied to me to add some more info of how the services are classed and compared to the Coastway services.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry I was just editing my post as you replied to me to add some more info of how the services are classed and compared to the Coastway services.

I disagree with your observation. They are both relatively slow, non-express services, therefore they are a reasonable comparison, with the exception perhaps that the coastways require at least one change at Brighton (I've travelled many times on both Coastway and Calder valley services).

The difference is that passengers on the Northern service have access to neither Network railcard discounts nor groupsave.

Anyhow, the point is somewhat moot since we have found an equally compelling case involving London to Brighton fares that bolsters our argument.

 

[Blackpool boy]

That's great, but you're more or less resigning the North to never having better fares.

No im not, ive never said that at all. However now we have 4 carriages against 6 from Blackpool north now you can get caught up with the day trippers if you fancy an afternoon/evening out in Preston and the trains are already crowded and reduced fares would greatly increase over crowding for this little seaside town services so sort that out and then sort out the discount card

 

[yorksrob]

No im not, ive never said that at all. However now we have 4 carriages against 6 from Blackpool north now you can get caught up with the day trippers if you fancy an afternoon/evening out in Preston and the trains are already crowded and reduced fares would greatly increase over crowding for this little seaside town services so sort that out and then sort out the discount card

Unfortunately, the reality is that if you wait for someone to lengthen the trains on the Blackpool route, nothing will happen. They've had fleets of electric trains available to strengthen Blackpool services over the last few years, but they've preferred to scrap them.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Unfortunately, the reality is that if you wait for someone to lengthen the trains on the Blackpool route, nothing will happen. They've had fleets of electric trains available to strengthen Blackpool services over the last few years, but they've preferred to scrap them.

So you're happy for overcrowding to continue and get worse all for the introduction of a northern area railcard?

 

[yorksrob]

So you're happy for overcrowding to continue and get worse all for the introduction of a northern area railcard?

I'm not really happy for crowding to continue, however with a railcard, with the exception of last trains, I'd still be able to vary my journey time to avoid busier services.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not really happy for crowding to continue, however with a railcard, with the exception of last trains, I'd still be able to vary my journey time to avoid busier services.

You might be able to avoid busier services, but other holders of the railcard would be paying less to use the busier services than they are at present, and the railway would be getting less money.

 

[Blackpool boy]

I'm not really happy for crowding to continue, however with a railcard, with the exception of last trains, I'd still be able to vary my journey time to avoid busier services.

As would other people thinking the same therefore creating over crowding on those services too. Without capacity increases youre just making travelling more uncomfortable all for the sake of a discount.

 

[yorksrob]

You might be able to avoid busier services, but other holders of the railcard would be paying less to use the busier services than they are at present, and the railway would be getting less money.

The idea behind a railcard would be to encourage more people to use rail for their leisure journeys which would generate more income. There would also be income from selling the railcard itself.

As would other people thinking the same therefore creating over crowding on those services too. Without capacity increases youre just making travelling more uncomfortable all for the sake of a discount.

The same issue could be said of all railcards.

There are pinch points where there is a lack of capacity, but this isn't true of the wider railway as a whole. Ultimately the railway is more efficient as a mass transport system and getting more people using the railway overall should help to produce that political impetus to get away from short two carriage trains.

That's likely without the extra passengers.

 

[urbophile]

So instead all we have on this thread are the usual posts from the usual suspects wanting their ability to trackbash around the north to be subsidised even further by somebody else.

The real elephant in the room which you ignore is why train fares in the UK are so much higher than in most other European countries. Presumably their governments see the value of subsidising fares to a much greater degree than ours does. All our policy does is force more people into polluting cars, further congest our towns and cities, and disadvantage all the poorer citizens who can neither afford their own vehicles nor the exorbitant rail fares. The proportion of 'track-bashing' enthusiasts to normal passengers must be infinitesimal.

We don't need railcards, just cheaper fares across the board.

 

[Blackpool boy]

The same issue could be said of all railcards.

There are pinch points where there is a lack of capacity, but this isn't true of the wider railway as a whole. Ultimately the railway is more efficient as a mass transport system and getting more people using the railway overall should help to produce that political impetus to get away from short two carriage trains.

That's likely without the extra passengers.

But they do know about the extra people travelling which is why services after 1800 on a Saturday are down as 6 carriages not the general 4 before then.

So whilst i appreciate you banging the drum for a national/northern railcard that suits you, i first and foremost want to travel in relative comfort on our train trips whether that's to Preston or even Manchester or Liverpool and that comes from providing proper capacity with the fare structure already in place and not by discounting tickets further encouraging over crowding.